Arcade Sticks necessary?

[lmbmu1335]

I’m sure this has been covered elsewhere, but I’m quite lazy and was curious if you all had opinions on the benefits both in gameplay and enjoyment out of utilizing an arcade stick versus a controller. I’ve watched Mark’s excellent rundown on choosing/modding the hardware from Electric Underground, but would like to know of their benefits/advantages. Thanks ahead of time!

[Steven]

Keyboard is the best.

[Lander]

Depends on what you want. If you're looking to optimize your play as hard as possible, a hitbox or keyboard with good light switches is probably the choice du jour, since it boils everything down to 1 finger = 1 input with minimal travel.
(cf. Ongoing FGC debate over cheatboxes and instant shoryukens)

I play on stick, which is nice for approximating the authentic game center feel, and arguably feels more precise than a pad on account of larger interaction surfaces. But, by the same token has its own not-universally-superior response characteristics on account of larger travel distance, spring tension, and so forth.

At the end of the day, such ergonomic concerns aren't going to have a meaningful effect unless you're at the peak of a given game, so it comes down to swings and roundabouts - the right choice is probably whichever one that feels best to you.

[bigbadboaz]

Lander pretty much ended the thread. The days of stick = superior are long past; it's all about arcade nostalgia/personal preference at this point.

The objective advantages of all-button/keyboard setups are well established by this point; as far as conventional controllers go, you'll find plenty of people who prefer a Sega Dpad to a stick as well.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm a pad player and saturn pads are pretty nice for most arcade game genres.

I personally really love the keyboard/joycon (disconnected fake dpad) for run-and-gun games where you only fire in cardinal directions. You can be super precise. I hate it when I get an accidental diagonal input with certain (usually cheap and shitty) controller pads. Playing with a disconnected "button" dpad ensures that never happens. I swear by Huntdown on joycon. I'm sure it's just as optimal playing on keyboard or hitbox.

But when it comes to shmups (and other games with lots of diagonal inputs), I like a nice pad. Saturn pad is breddy gudd. It doesn't matter what I like though. Only what works for you.

[bobrocks95]

If you're using original hardware I got a stick after hurting my thumb playing Espgaluda with a crappy Dualshock 2 D-Pad. Stick/hitbox are nice since you get a lot of connectivity options. Keyboard is going to be a challenge unless you're solely emulating. With BlueRetro you get a lot of pad options for older systems, though the lag with certain Bluetooth controllers probably isn't ideal.

Convenience + availability is what it all comes down to imo. Do you end up with a comfortable control option for every system you want to play, or get stuck with duds?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Depends on if you're using it on a PC or dedicated gaming console. I grew up playing arcade games during the "Golden Age of Arcades" -- the early 1980s. So it was the custom to play arcade games with the provided arcade joysticks, trakballs and the like. The Japanese arcade joysticks from both Sanwa Denshi and Seimitsu are solid performers in the game centers of Japan.

In the FGC (fighting game community), the preference is based towards Sanwa arcade sticks for use with fighting games and Seimitsu arcade sticks for use with stg/shmups -- of course, it basically comes down to what you'd be most comfortable using and how much you're willing to spend to acquire the proper arcade stick hardware. I use both Sanwa & Seimitsu arcade sticks myself along with the Hori Hayabusa arcade stick & Qanba as well.

What would you be using an arcade stick for which gaming genre/gaming platform?

The three reputable suggested sites for buying arcade sticks, arcade push buttons, etc. would be Arcade Shock, Focus Attack and Paradise Arcade Shop are your best bets.

http://www.arcadeshock.com
http://www.focusattack.com
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Sumez]

I can see the argument why keyboard is objectively superior, and can't really disagree with the science - but for whatever it's worth, shooters are and have always been near impossible for me to play with d-pads, and even moreso with keyboards. It'll feel like I can play them just fine, but in practice I perform much, much worse.
So yeah, I guess it always comes down to personal habits - it's definitely not a nostalgia thing for me.

Being able to intuitively feel the diagonal directions with the same feedback I get from lateral ones is definitely one important aspect to me. Maybe a hitbox with dedicated diagonal buttons would provide a similar advantage, but I'm not really sure...

[Lander]

It'll feel like I can play them just fine, but in practice I perform much, much worse.

That sounds more like the transition period than anything - I remember fighting back buyer's remorse after buying my first stick and immediately sucking compared to pad.

I think you can adapt to anything given time and practice, but having a vested interest in getting good on a given input device makes the road to payoff much smoother.

Maybe a hitbox with dedicated diagonal buttons would provide a similar advantage, but I'm not really sure...

Unlikely, since having more buttons than fingers introduces the need to move as well as press, which costs frames and brain / muscle bandwidth. PC games used to do something like that by binding directions to the numpad (perhaps in part due to lack of N-key rollover on older boards), but it was never good imo.

The hacker-favourite vim modal text editor is a decent example on the ergonomics front - it maps H / J / K / L / Semicolon to Left / Down / Up / Right / Command so you can navigate without ever moving your right hand from the home row, and proves most efficient once you're past the learning curve. Experts have also been known to mock silly gamers for immediately balking at this and rebinding to WASD

Naturally, diagonals aren't as big of a thing when navigating a cursor around a terminal, hence why hitbox moves up to the thumb position so you can chord properly.

[Lord of Pirates]

Unlikely, since having more buttons than fingers introduces the need to move as well as press, which costs frames and brain / muscle bandwidth. PC games used to do something like that by binding directions to the numpad (perhaps in part due to lack of N-key rollover on older boards), but it was never good imo.

The hacker-favourite vim modal text editor is a decent example on the ergonomics front - it maps H / J / K / L / Semicolon to Left / Down / Up / Right / Command so you can navigate without ever moving your right hand from the home row, and proves most efficient once you're past the learning curve. Experts have also been known to mock silly gamers for immediately balking at this and rebinding to WASD

Naturally, diagonals aren't as big of a thing when navigating a cursor around a terminal, hence why hitbox moves up to the thumb position so you can chord properly.

I preferred the numpad block for Crusader to the other controls and it wasn't hard to adjust to using it. Someone could assign diagonals to ASDF and use their left hand for them. I don't follow the reasoning for semicolon instead of space if you can remap; why assign semicolon instead of space which you can strike with your thumb and never remove your fingers from HJKL? If you need more keys you're moving off the row or using modifiers or layers.

[Lander]

Sidenote on keyboards: If you're getting one for gaming - or at all, in fact - for the love of god get an ortholinear (straight-columned) one.
Humans may have needed italic fingers \\\\ \\\\ back in the victorian era to prevent typewriters from jamming, but we've evolved past that. Be kind to your hands.

I preferred the numpad block for Crusader to the other controls and it wasn't hard to adjust to using it. Someone could assign diagonals to ASDF and use their left hand for them. I don't follow the reasoning for semicolon instead of space if you can remap; why assign semicolon instead of space which you can strike with your thumb and never remove your fingers from HJKL? If you need more keys you're moving off the row or using modifiers or layers.

Isn't Crusader movement kind of complex? I've yet to play it, but what I've glimpsed of the manual seems more justifiable for the 9-key layout than it would the 8-way pointing setup you get from four keys or a d-pad.

And semi is the pinky in this case, since the right-hand home row roots the index at J. For the STG analogy that would put J / K / L / Semi (or S / D / F / A if mirrored) as Left / Up / Right / Down, with Down being moved to Space in practical use since the pinky is weaker than the thumb.
vim itself is more esoteric, since the strongest two fingers are rooted on Up / Down to account for line navigation being primary, with character navigation considered secondary since words are long and the left hand has various binds to hop around them more efficiently.
But I digress - the main takeaway is that you want all the important stuff on one row, and don't want to give the middle finger WASD-style double-duty over Up / Down without a good reason (namely, 3D stuff where the left hand needs to handle both vertical and lateral movement.)

[Lord of Pirates]

Sidenote on keyboards: If you're getting one for gaming - or at all, in fact - for the love of god get an ortholinear (straight-columned) one.
Humans may have needed italic fingers \\\\ \\\\ back in the victorian era to prevent typewriters from jamming, but we've evolved past that. Be kind to your hands.

I preferred the numpad block for Crusader to the other controls and it wasn't hard to adjust to using it. Someone could assign diagonals to ASDF and use their left hand for them. I don't follow the reasoning for semicolon instead of space if you can remap; why assign semicolon instead of space which you can strike with your thumb and never remove your fingers from HJKL? If you need more keys you're moving off the row or using modifiers or layers.

Isn't Crusader movement kind of complex? I've yet to play it, but what I've glimpsed of the manual seems more justifiable for the 9-key layout than it would the 8-way pointing setup you get from four keys or a d-pad.

And semi is the pinky in this case, since the right-hand home row roots the index at J. For the STG analogy that would put J / K / L / Semi (or S / D / F / A if mirrored) as Left / Up / Right / Down, with Down being moved to Space in practical use since the pinky is weaker than the thumb.
vim itself is more esoteric, since the strongest two fingers are rooted on Up / Down to account for line navigation being primary, with character navigation considered secondary since words are long and the left hand has various binds to hop around them more efficiently.
But I digress - the main takeaway is that you want all the important stuff on one row, and don't want to give the middle finger WASD-style double-duty over Up / Down without a good reason (namely, 3D stuff where the left hand needs to handle both vertical and lateral movement.)

I'd base a purchase decision on personal comfort. I have a keypad with straight columns, which is alright but, I don't know if I'd want it for a full KB.

I'd say it's moderately complex but the controls are well laid out. You frequently need to be able to quickly change direction and mode and also cycle through equipment. I see, understandable enough. I think there would be a learning curve for a long time computer gamer, maybe not for a primarily console player.

[Taiyaki]

I would say Arcade sticks are better but it depends on your preferences and finding the right combination of your preferred parts may take some time, and then if you're not used to it there's going to be an adjustment period which may or may not be worth the trouble to you.

[Lander]

I'd base a purchase decision on personal comfort. I have a keypad with straight columns, which is alright but, I don't know if I'd want it for a full KB.

That's a fair position in general, though keyboards are a trickier domain than controllers by virtue of having a longer history and more deeply-embedded status quo; we're taught to get comfy with slanted QWERTY (or regional equivalent) because it's been the standard since the late 1800s, rather than because it's intrinsically efficient or comfortable for human hands.

Various ergonomics studies have yielded provably superior layouts and mechanical arrangements (ex. Dvorak, Colemak, ortholinear keys, split boards), but they've not seen mainstream adoption since the economy of scale favours the thing everyone already knows how to use.

So if short-term comfort is the thing, regular slanted QWERTY will always win, but there's tangible long-term comfort to be had from putting yourself through the (admittedly brutal) transition to something more modern. I type a lot (can you tell? ) so ended up going for an ergo board a while back, and post-adjustment the grid setup feels much more intuitive in typing and many-bind games than the miss-prone syncopation of a slanted layout.

[Unseen]

Humans may have needed italic fingers \\\\ :shock: \\\\ back in the victorian era to prevent typewriters from jamming, but we've evolved past that. Be kind to your hands.

Are you typing with angled wrists to keep your fingers parallel to the ortholinear keyboard columns?

[Sumez]

That sounds more like the transition period than anything - I remember fighting back buyer's remorse after buying my first stick and immediately sucking compared to pad.

Oh cool! A 30+ year transition period

Maybe a hitbox with dedicated diagonal buttons would provide a similar advantage, but I'm not really sure...

Unlikely, since having more buttons than fingers introduces the need to move as well as press, which costs frames and brain / muscle bandwidth.

That's how keyboard controls already feel to me, though (managing fingers instead of just moving your hand). Do you actually use four individual fingers with one on each button when playing using a keyboard?

[lmbmu1335]

Thank you all for the great feedback, will take these things into consideration! Just picked up the Saturn control pad and was considering one of the Hori arcade sticks but may hold off for a bit until I see how the Saturn pad feels overall.

[Steven]

Saturn controller is the best controller any console has ever had, with the exception of those few consoles that let you play with a mouse and keyboard.

[tadaito]

It's certainly cliche to say, but yes, it comes down purely to preference.

Keyboard/Arcade Stick will likely have the most pure, objective control over your game.
Arcade Sticks come with the obvious downside of being well, huge, and somewhat expensive. Everyone has a keyboard, but if you play on console, you won't be able to use one.

Controllers work just fine, in my opinion, even using the joystick! If that is what you are most comfortable with, it's what you will play best with.
I do think an older controller with a good directional pad is the best option to balance price, size, and ease of use.
Something like a Saturn controller, or the remake of those big Genesis controllers with added buttons.

The best controller is the Neogeo CD controller, anyway

[Lander]

The Saturn pad is definitely among the best in class, provided that you get a good one - there are a few different reproductions out there that vary pretty hugely in build quality even within the same brand / manufacturer (ex. the crappy D-pad on Retrobit's cheap wired version.)
But if you manage to dodge that, it's a cracking choice.

Are you typing with angled wrists to keep your fingers parallel to the ortholinear keyboard columns?

No more so than on a regular layout; the base posture is identical since the home row is in the same place.
The main difference is being able to stay there and extend / contract individual fingers to hop rows, rather than needing to strafe the whole hand to stay aligned with the skew.

Split boards are a more direct fix for wrist orientation issues, since you can move the halves further apart for a more neutral yaw, and apply tenting feet to fix roll / pronation.
Or go nuclear and mount them onto a pair of small tripods for maximum ergo nerd control

Oh cool! A 30+ year transition period

That's how keyboard controls already feel to me, though (managing fingers instead of just moving your hand). Do you actually use four individual fingers with one on each button when playing using a keyboard?

Dedication issue you have to suffer through the disgusting cold turkey until it tastes good!

And yeah, four-finger (or three-plus-thumb) is definitely a thing for 2D / primarily-8-way titles. Certainly moreso now hitbox has popularised the layout, though I expect there were folks in the PC doujin scene blazing the trail well before that.
Heck, even in the 3D case where WASD is a necessity, shifting one to the right and using ESDF opens up more active / comfy utility for the pinky while dedicating the other fingers to full-time movement.

[Lord of Pirates]

That's a fair position in general, though keyboards are a trickier domain than controllers by virtue of having a longer history and more deeply-embedded status quo; we're taught to get comfy with slanted QWERTY (or regional equivalent) because it's been the standard since the late 1800s, rather than because it's intrinsically efficient or comfortable for human hands.

Various ergonomics studies have yielded provably superior layouts and mechanical arrangements (ex. Dvorak, Colemak, ortholinear keys, split boards), but they've not seen mainstream adoption since the economy of scale favours the thing everyone already knows how to use.

So if short-term comfort is the thing, regular slanted QWERTY will always win, but there's tangible long-term comfort to be had from putting yourself through the (admittedly brutal) transition to something more modern. I type a lot (can you tell? ) so ended up going for an ergo board a while back, and post-adjustment the grid setup feels much more intuitive in typing and many-bind games than the miss-prone syncopation of a slanted layout.

When I saw 'ortholinear' I figured you were a keyboard enthusiast. I have interest in a split board but cost puts me off.

[Unseen]

No more so than on a regular layout; the base posture is identical since the home row is in the same place.
The main difference is being able to stay there and extend / contract individual fingers to hop rows, rather than needing to strafe the whole hand to stay aligned with the skew.

That sounds really weird to me because I type on a standard keyboard while holding my wrists relatively straigt, which means that my fingers are angled approximately the same way as the keyboard rows because my shoulder width is larger than the keyboard width. To get the same effect with an ortholinear keyboard I'd have to angle my wrists outward which AFAIK is really bad long-term.

Heck, even in the 3D case where WASD is a necessity, shifting one to the right and using ESDF opens up more active / comfy utility for the pinky while dedicating the other fingers to full-time movement.

WASD has always been a strange choice to me, it's just too cramped. I went with ASDF (vi-like: straft left, back, forward, strafe right) in the original Doom and had to redefine the input keys in every game since.

[Lander]

When I saw 'ortholinear' I figured you were a keyboard enthusiast. I have interest in a split board but cost puts me off.

Ha, yeah. I spend most of my waking life writing code, so keeping my hands in good nick is an occupational hazard

I have the ZSA Moonlander, since I didn't want to go down the kit-build hole. It levies a premium for that, but pays off next to a comparable gaming board since you can swap out individual switches instead of needing to replace the whole thing or break out the soldering iron.

That sounds really weird to me because I type on a standard keyboard while holding my wrists relatively straigt, which means that my fingers are angled approximately the same way as the keyboard rows because my shoulder width is larger than the keyboard width. To get the same effect with an ortholinear keyboard I'd have to angle my wrists outward which AFAIK is really bad long-term.

Are your fingers actually anchored to (i.e. resting on) the home row in that situation though? If your wrists are oriented into the slant, that would imply a rotation that puts the fingers' neutral pose out of horizontal alignment with the board, thus introducing a different kind of long-term strain in the need to compensate for the diagonal per-finger.

Not to mention that the slant itself is actually asymmetric and nonlinear; the letters skew left, thus favouring the right arm, and gradiate toward the lower right, creating a curve.
For example, you can draw the same curved V through Q-A-Z-S-E as you can through I-K-,-L-P, where it would instead have to be symmetric through P-;-/-L-I for both sides to be considered equal.
A certain ex-Konami auteur might call it achiral - either way, that shit would make a geometry professor weep

WASD has always been a strange choice to me, it's just too cramped. I went with ASDF (vi-like: straft left, back, forward, strafe right) in the original Doom and had to redefine the input keys in every game since.

I tried that for a while, since having QWER and ZXCV free is really tidy for secondary actions, but could never get over the loss of a movement key whenever sprint / crouch was needed.

[Lord of Pirates]

When I saw 'ortholinear' I figured you were a keyboard enthusiast. I have interest in a split board but cost puts me off.

Ha, yeah. I spend most of my waking life writing code, so keeping my hands in good nick is an occupational hazard

I have the ZSA Moonlander, since I didn't want to go down the kit-build hole. It levies a premium for that, but pays off next to a comparable gaming board since you can swap out individual switches instead of needing to replace the whole thing or break out the soldering iron.

I've pondered getting an Ergodox, Moonlander costs more than I'd want to spend. I likely wouldn't lose much in resale if I didn't like either though. How's ZSA's configuration tool or QMK for macros/remapping? Kinesis Edge retains function keys and I think it allows for remapping/macros/profiles all onboard. I'm not fond of the condensed arrow/home section however.