Once and for all-is it illegal to own import games??....

[dave4shmups]

I'm not talking about PCB's, just console games. Also, is it illegal to mod a console, or own a modded console? What about a Japanese console?

I'm just concerned with the laws here in the US-regardless of whether or not they are inforced, I would like to know what they are.

[Benjamin]

I'm not talking about PCB's, just console games. Also, is it illegal to mod a console, or own a modded console? What about a Japanese console?

I'm just concerned with the laws here in the US-regardless of whether or not they are inforced, I would like to know what they are.

There is no law banning the purchase and ownership of import video games, though I would not be surprised if sometime soon Congress makes sale of M-rated and higher games to minors illegal.

[llabnip]

I'm not talking about PCB's, just console games. Also, is it illegal to mod a console, or own a modded console? What about a Japanese console?

I'm no lawyer... so assume this is wrong

Selling the game outside of Japan may be in violation of Japanese law - assuming the common "For Sale Only In Japan" has some legal binding. Clearly there are ways around that (or perhaps it simply isn't enforced) - since big Japanese companies sell to US companies for redistribution (NCSX, etc).

As far as importing the game into the US... this is still a grey area.

The Supreme Court has upheld the "first sale doctrine" - making it clear that the owner of copyrighted material (in 1976 this was changed from "first sale" to any owner of the material no matter how far removed from the first sale) is entitled to sell or dispose of the material as he/she sees fit. This makes good sense - chalk one up for US copyright law. But this is less clear for imported items not originally made in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine (some quotes from the Wikipedia article are below):

In 1998 in Quality King Distributors Inc., v. L'anza Research International Inc. (1998, WL 9625) [2] there was a unanimous ruling: in a case involving distribution of hair care products bearing a copyrighted label, the Supreme Court found that the doctrine does apply to importation into the US of copyrighted works (the labels) which were made in the US, then exported. This is significant for grey market imports of software, books, movies or other copies of copyrighted works, where the price outside the US may be lower than the price inside. The importation of goods first manufactured outside the US under the copyright laws of other countries was specifically excluded from that decision, leaving undecided whether goods "lawfully made" under the Copyright Act but made outside the United States also benefit from the first sale doctrine. Until that is decided, copyright holders are free to take action against foreign distributors who sell products made in their region into the US market.

Once again, my understanding is that the import seller is the one potentially on the hook and is mostly goverened by the laws of that country (for the purposes of this discussion, Japanese law would be most relevant).

The US buyer is free and clear once he/she is in possesion of the product. They own it and can then see fit to use it, sell it or dispose of it as the case may be. Unlike a controlled substance, there is no legal problem with having the game in your possession or playing it on your console.

[Vexorg]

You might get prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam, but other than that...

[dave4shmups]

Ok, thanks for that information. Now, what about modding a console, buying, say, Swap Magic Discs, or purchasing an import console?

What you guys said about it not being a problem once you've bought the game makes sense-otherwise, I would think that consoles like the Neo Geo CD, and the Turbo Duo, which are both region-free (only on CD-Rom for the Duo, of course) would've been pulled from US store shelves.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I see that one can buy Japanese PSP games at USA-based Fry's Electronics Superstore locations without any problems...the higher price tag might deter you from buying them though -- but it's worth the little extra money down to own JPN originated video game soft that normally you couldn't get at a USA electronics chain retailer under normal circumstances anyways. There is a special sticker placed on the Japanese PSP game UMDs that Fry's sells stating that the game & manual are in Japanese text but is backwards compatible with American PSP handhelds + all sales are final & no refunds issued regarding opened/used Japanese PSP game UMDs. (They are regarded as a speciality one-time purchase.) ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Vexorg]

The local Fry's has some import DS games as well (although those seem to be mostly the Simple 2000 type budget games.) Mobile game platforms traditionally haven't been region locked though.

[Ceph]

I'm not talking about PCB's, just console games. Also, is it illegal to mod a console, or own a modded console? What about a Japanese console?

I'm just concerned with the laws here in the US-regardless of whether or not they are inforced, I would like to know what they are.

Yes, it is highly illegal to own import games in the US! You can go to prison for that. You may even lose your house/ all other posessions (property forfeiture). Don't listen to the others here, they are all liars who wish you harm! Do you really think it's worth the risk?

However, I am willing to help you out (being a fellow shmupper and all). As long as you pay for the shipping, I am willing to take all those import games off you so you can stop worrying. Please pm me for details.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Ok, thanks for that information. Now, what about modding a console, buying, say, Swap Magic Discs, or purchasing an import console?

What you guys said about it not being a problem once you've bought the game makes sense-otherwise, I would think that consoles like the Neo Geo CD, and the Turbo Duo, which are both region-free (only on CD-Rom for the Duo, of course) would've been pulled from US store shelves.

For dave4shmups,

Modding a game console is the owner's right if he or she chooses to go that route. It's just that the American console company won't honor the console's warranty should it go kaput. Hence the special anti-tamper proof factory seals placed inside at key places during assembly at manufacturing plant -- if the seal/s is/are broken or defaced in any shape or form, then the original country that that console was sold for won't honor said warranty.

Swap Magic Disks fall under the catagory of temporary solution of being able to play import video games without voiding the console's original warranty. As with most USA electronics, there is a 90-day period that is regarded as the "manufacturer warranty"...should a defect arise, take it back to original place of purchase with reciept and another product of same likeness shall be substituted. (This would apply to electronics purchased in said country, of course.)

Why would have the Neo-Geo CD or Turbo Duo have been pulled from U.S. store shelves?

SNK of America & TTI had already established U.S. branches (aside from the original Japanese corporate parent companies, SNK & NEC/Hudson Soft) and wanted to further broaden their console & 1st party software exposure for the North American market base back in the early to mid 1990's. When U.S. retailers recieved word that TTI wasn't going to be releasing the newest NEC produced PC-FX console, they decided that in early 1994 & into 1995, that all remaining TG-16 & Turbo Duo hardware + software needed to be priced cheaply to make more space for the competition which was Nintendo & Sega at the current time (as prime retail shelving is a very expensive commodity when running a business in the first place). If something doesn't sell, mark it down and make room for other competing products to take over the same retail shelf space. In other words, "maximize your inventory to it's fullest potential" is smart business planning. ^_~

As for purchasing an import gaming console, it's perfectly legal in the USA. However, if the import console should break down in another country not of it's "origin of sale" (i.e. -- JPN PS2 console for JPN market), then the manufacturer's warranty would be void. Can't be put in more simplier terms than that. ^_~

Back in spring of 2000 in Japan, I was checking out this cool Japanese video game store franchise and gathered up some gaming goodies to be rung up. As some of my Japanese video game purchases were being rung up, the Japanese store associate was in the process of registering them for warranty under Japanese consumer protection laws. I tried to tell him that I wasn't a Japanese citizen but a tourist from abroad. He managed to get my point across and tried to tell me that if you take said Japanese game or console outside of Japan area, then "warranty is no good". I tried to tell him that I understood that already and he did eventually get my point. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[dave4shmups]

Ok, thanks for that information. Now, what about modding a console, buying, say, Swap Magic Discs, or purchasing an import console?

What you guys said about it not being a problem once you've bought the game makes sense-otherwise, I would think that consoles like the Neo Geo CD, and the Turbo Duo, which are both region-free (only on CD-Rom for the Duo, of course) would've been pulled from US store shelves.

For dave4shmups,

Modding a game console is the owner's right if he or she chooses to go that route. It's just that the American console company won't honor the console's warranty should it go kaput. Hence the special anti-tamper proof factory seals placed inside at key places during assembly at manufacturing plant -- if the seal/s is/are broken or defaced in any shape or form, then the original country that that console was sold for won't honor said warranty.

Swap Magic Disks fall under the catagory of temporary solution of being able to play import video games without voiding the console's original warranty. As with most USA electronics, there is a 90-day period that is regarded as the "manufacturer warranty"...should a defect arise, take it back to original place of purchase with reciept and another product of same likeness shall be substituted. (This would apply to electronics purchased in said country, of course.)

Why would have the Neo-Geo CD or Turbo Duo have been pulled from U.S. store shelves?

SNK of America & TTI had already established U.S. branches (aside from the original Japanese corporate parent companies, SNK & NEC/Hudson Soft) and wanted to further broaden their console & 1st party software exposure for the North American market base back in the early to mid 1990's. When U.S. retailers recieved word that TTI wasn't going to be releasing the newest NEC produced PC-FX console, they decided that in early 1994 & into 1995, that all remaining TG-16 & Turbo Duo hardware + software needed to be priced cheaply to make more space for the competition which was Nintendo & Sega at the current time (as prime retail shelving is a very expensive commodity when running a business in the first place). If something doesn't sell, mark it down and make room for other competing products to take over the same retail shelf space. In other words, "maximize your inventory to it's fullest potential" is smart business planning. ^_~

As for purchasing an import gaming console, it's perfectly legal in the USA. However, if the import console should break down in another country not of it's "origin of sale" (i.e. -- JPN PS2 console for JPN market), then the manufacturer's warranty would be void. Can't be put in more simplier terms than that. ^_~

Back in spring of 2000 in Japan, I was checking out this cool Japanese video game store franchise and gathered up some gaming goodies to be rung up. As some of my Japanese video game purchases were being rung up, the Japanese store associate was in the process of registering them for warranty under Japanese consumer protection laws. I tried to tell him that I wasn't a Japanese citizen but a tourist from abroad. He managed to get my point across and tried to tell me that if you take said Japanese game or console outside of Japan area, then "warranty is no good". I tried to tell him that I understood that already and he did eventually get my point. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Ok, I appreciate the information very much!

[zakk]

Actually, console modding could be considered illegal under the DMCA, depending on what exactly you were bypassing while doing so...

[Specineff]

Yeah, but I think the FBI is too busy pursuing terrorists and monitoring our conversations over the web Vote Republican next election if you don't want your family to suffer. I am George W. Bush, and I approve of this message. to bother with minor infractions that cannot be proven in court without great expenses. In other words, it's not worth their time to go after you if all you're doing with your swapmagics is play your original imports, or even copies you made of originals you own and don't want to be damaged or such, IIRC.

[zakk]

Yeah, but I think the FBI is too busy pursuing terrorists and monitoring our conversations over the web Vote Republican next election if you don't want your family to suffer. I am George W. Bush, and I approve of this message. to bother with minor infractions that cannot be proven in court without great expenses. In other words, it's not worth their time to go after you if all you're doing with your swapmagics is play your original imports, or even copies you made of originals you own and don't want to be damaged or such, IIRC.

Well yes. But he wasn't asking about reality

[dave4shmups]

Actually, console modding could be considered illegal under the DMCA, depending on what exactly you were bypassing while doing so...

Please exlpain more.

[howmuchkeefe]

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003F ... 018861.htm

http://www.betanews.com/article/Calif_M ... 1147363187

I think both articles refer to the same case.

-up to 5 years in prison! Without ever causing quantifiable financial damage to the company. Well, they broke a law, but the only harm they've actually done is in the breaking of the law.

There is a law making its way across our legislature which would further restrict fair use, and which would qualify violators such as the guys mentioned above for up to twenty years of imprisonment. I believe that Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) is sponsoring the bill, as usual.

EDIT: D'oh! Upon further review, it has come to light that each link refers to a different case.

[zakk]

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003F ... 018861.htm

http://www.betanews.com/article/Calif_M ... 1147363187

I think both articles refer to the same case.

-up to 5 years in prison! Without ever causing quantifiable financial damage to the company. Well, they broke a law, but the only harm they've actually done is in the breaking of the law.

There is a law making its way across our legislature which would further restrict fair use, and which would qualify violators such as the guys mentioned above for up to twenty years of imprisonment. I believe that Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) is sponsoring the bill, as usual.

EDIT: D'oh! Upon further review, it has come to light that each link refers to a different case.

It is important to note a few things here.

1) ISO News was more than 'an xbox site'.

2) Those guys got busted for SELLING modded xboxes. There were multiple cases of this in various places. They never mention that most of them were also preloading them with games. You can't really tell either way here; so it's not exactly right to put this up as an example of modding being illegal.


Dave:

The DMCA makes circumvention of any scheme used to 'protect' copyrighted material illegal.

[howmuchkeefe]

Selling modded Xboxes doesn't seem to me to be much of a crime. Selling them preloaded with games rather does, even to me. As would selling counterfeit XBoxes.

As for ISO News being more than just an Xbox site, I only know what little the article tells me. Perhaps you could explicate your point? It sounds as if they didn't actually provide any copyrighted material for download.

I'm almost certain that the DMCA forbids you to modify your system so that it may play backup copies of your protected media, as the license you get when you buy that media doesn't grant you the right to make backup copies of it. I believe the underlying reason for this proscription is that backup copies of media made using commonly available consumer goods are indistinguishable from pirated copies.

EDIT: At least, as far as the USA's interpretation of the DMCA is concerned, it does

[zakk]

Selling modded Xboxes doesn't seem to me to be much of a crime. Selling them preloaded with games rather does, even to me. As would selling counterfeit XBoxes.

As for ISO News being more than just an Xbox site, I only know what little the article tells me. Perhaps you could explicate your point? It sounds as if they didn't actually provide any copyrighted material for download.

I'm almost certain that the DMCA forbids you to modify your system so that it may play backup copies of your protected media, as the license you get when you buy that media doesn't grant you the right to make backup copies of it. I believe the underlying reason for this proscription is that backup copies of media made using commonly available consumer goods are indistinguishable from pirated copies.

EDIT: At least, as far as the USA's interpretation of the DMCA is concerned, it does

ISO News was a general "release" news site. It basically told you when any sort of ISO for any platform was released. I think they got them under the 'distribution of circumvention information' or something. It was somewhat of a liberal interpretation of the law, but enough to shut them down. I have no idea why that site characterized them as 'an xbox site', more like 'a piracy notification beacon'.

[bpe]

I'm almost certain that the DMCA forbids you to modify your system so that it may play backup copies of your protected media, as the license you get when you buy that media doesn't grant you the right to make backup copies of it.

Yes, the DMCA forbids pretty much anything, except for a few very narrow cases, and then later on they added a few exceptions to "patch" some of the outcries, ie the arrest of the guy who hacked ebooks to let blind people hear them.

On the other hand, the "good" news is that those licenses probably mean nothing. First, there is the Fair Use clause that overrules everything : once you got the media, they're yours, and you can do whatever you want as long as you don't infringe copyright (ie public showing), and what you do is technically possible without breaking the law (hence the nastiness of the DMCA). Second, you haven't really signed anything, or even gave a verbal agreement. Afaik all those "Read this... now click Agree" click-through thingies haven't been tried in court, so all of that is basically dead paper. Shops can't pretend to be "simply selling you some goods", and then later on claim that there is in fact a contractual agreement going on.

So in short,
a. forget the license
b. you can make private copies all you want
c. but the producer is not obliged to deliver a format that is actually easily copied
d. you can't hack things to make it easier to correct 'c'.

More info from the EFF

[Specineff]

*kisses his Hi-MD recorder with optical input*

In your face, RIAA.

[J-Manic]

I could care less if importing is illegal. It ain't gonna stop me! That "For Japan Only" tag I see on most of my games might tell you something though; there are alot of games that Japan doesn't want us Americans to get our hands on. I guess they still hate us for bombing Hiroshima. j/k! Seriously though, I know that the developers in Japan are aware about us importing their games, and I wouldn't be suprised if they're infact pissed about it. But who cares. I don't. Until the U.S. passes a law against it, I'll be importing games & DVDs until I'm satisfied.

As a gamer, I always recommend to all the people who've only played US released games, in my area, to start importing.....fast. Because they just don't know what they're missing.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I could care less if importing is illegal. It ain't gonna stop me! That "For Japan Only" tag I see on most of my games might tell you something though; there are alot of games that Japan doesn't want us Americans to get our hands on. I guess they still hate us for bombing Hiroshima. j/k! Seriously though, I know that the developers in Japan are aware about us importing their games, and I wouldn't be suprised if they're infact pissed about it. But who cares. I don't. Until the U.S. passes a law against it, I'll be importing games & DVDs until I'm satisfied.

As a gamer, I always recommend to all the people who've only played US released games, in my area, to start importing.....fast. Because they just don't know what they're missing.

For J-Manic,

When I visited Hiroshima back in 2000, I visited the Hiroshima War Memorial Museum and a sadness developed inside of me while looking at the exhibits. Some of the exhibits showed the effects of atomic radiation on human flesh...very graphic stuff. The intial people who survived the atomic blast developed an extreme thirst but it could not be quenched and quickly passed away since everything was destroyed at 'ground zero'. Once a year, the Japanese honor their dead and pay their respects in Hiroshima...very touching but yet delicate subject. One stills sees the effects of the bombings of Nagaski & Hiroshima in the kids born after those horrific incidents that suffer from the aftermath radiation effects. Very sad & humble sight to behold.

Even Hiroshima's groundwater has to be filtered with a special heavy-duty filtration system before using. WTF?!

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[dave4shmups]

I'm almost certain that the DMCA forbids you to modify your system so that it may play backup copies of your protected media, as the license you get when you buy that media doesn't grant you the right to make backup copies of it.

Yes, the DMCA forbids pretty much anything, except for a few very narrow cases, and then later on they added a few exceptions to "patch" some of the outcries, ie the arrest of the guy who hacked ebooks to let blind people hear them.

On the other hand, the "good" news is that those licenses probably mean nothing. First, there is the Fair Use clause that overrules everything : once you got the media, they're yours, and you can do whatever you want as long as you don't infringe copyright (ie public showing), and what you do is technically possible without breaking the law (hence the nastiness of the DMCA). Second, you haven't really signed anything, or even gave a verbal agreement. Afaik all those "Read this... now click Agree" click-through thingies haven't been tried in court, so all of that is basically dead paper. Shops can't pretend to be "simply selling you some goods", and then later on claim that there is in fact a contractual agreement going on.

So in short,
a. forget the license
b. you can make private copies all you want
c. but the producer is not obliged to deliver a format that is actually easily copied
d. you can't hack things to make it easier to correct 'c'.

More info from the EFF

Geez, these rules that once you have it, it's fine, remind me of a rule in a college where you could only have beer in your dorm room, but not in the hallways-then how are you supposed to get it to your room?!

And how do we know that the "Japan Only" label only relates to Japanese law, and that such games aren't illegal to own over here?

[Acid King]

What I'm curious about is running Japan-only PCBs in a US arcade.

[J-Manic]

For J-Manic,

When I visited Hiroshima back in 2000, I visited the Hiroshima War Memorial Museum and a sadness developed inside of me while looking at the exhibits. Some of the exhibits showed the effects of atomic radiation on human flesh...very graphic stuff. The intial people who survived the atomic blast developed an extreme thirst but it could not be quenched and quickly passed away since everything was destroyed at 'ground zero'. Once a year, the Japanese honor their dead and pay their respects in Hiroshima...very touching but yet delicate subject. One stills sees the effects of the bombings of Nagaski & Hiroshima in the kids born after those horrific incidents that suffer from the aftermath radiation effects. Very sad & humble sight to behold.

Even Hiroshima's groundwater has to be filtered with a special heavy-duty filtration system before using. WTF?!

Relax man. I was just kidding. That's what "j/k" means. I wasn't being serious or anyting. I'm just a bit confused as to why alot of great games from Japan never came to the U.S..

[Axon]

What I'm curious about is running Japan-only PCBs in a US arcade.

Aren't those DDR(sorry if I got this worng) machines Japanese? Though, the only reason I think that is because the warning sticker on the back of the machine is in Japanese and I think all the voices are Japanese.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm just a bit confused as to why alot of great games from Japan never came to the U.S..

As has been said heaven knows how many times before, just because it sells well in one place doesn't mean it'll sell well in another (one very obvious example is how shmups are usually received around here), and game companies are generally hesitant to take a risk that could result in financial loss. Nothing personal, it's just business.

[The Coop]

I'm just a bit confused as to why alot of great games from Japan never came to the U.S..

As has been said heaven knows how many times before, just because it sells well in one place doesn't mean it'll sell well in another (one very obvious example is how shmups are usually received around here), and game companies are generally hesitant to take a risk that could result in financial loss. Nothing personal, it's just business.

Pretty much. Unless the market is clear for a given genre, game companies usually won't take a chance. From time to time, you get things like what XS is doing with Raiden III, but such actions often center around games that are quick and easy to port and translate.

But take the RPG market for instance. For the longest time, not many companies took a chance on them. Heavy text translation and localization, occasional graphical changes, vocal translations... that's a lot of time and money, and not everyone was willing to put the effort into it. Then the market changed in the second half of the 90s. Now RPGs are fairly common, and just about anyone will give a localization a whirl because of the popularity of RPGs these days.

It all boils down to what the market is supporting at a given time. If FPSs, RPGs and MMORPGs are the big thing, then that's what companies will go after so they can get a slice of that gaming dollar pie. Yes, that's a simplified way of looking at it, but what's "hot" in the US market is one of the big deciding factors, so I think the generalization still holds up.




Oh, and if there's still any lingering doubts about the legality of importing games, keep this in mind... EBGames, Gamestop, and countless other national retail chains made quite a bit of cash from selling import titles during the Saturn/PS1 to Dreamcast era. It was fine to buy the games off of them, and it's fine to get them online now. After all, would these games get through customs if they were illegal... especially when the package says "game" somewhere on the shipping label?

Really, the only reason import sales aren't still being widely done nowadays, is because bypassing the regional lockout is often done through more questionable means. Carts and swap CDs usually don't cut it anymore, and so hardware modification is the main way it's done. No company wants to sell products that'll make a customer tinker with the inner workings of their consoles, because a) they'd get in hot water over the legal issues of hardware modding, and b) every customer would blame them for any damages done to the console. It would look bad to be caught in either of those scenarios, so import sales just stopped for the major chains around the time the Dreamcast died.

Although, with the PSP and PS3 being more region friendly, it could possibly make a bit of a comeback if enough customers want it.

[zaphod]

Accoring to case law, the DMCA trumps fair use (!)

Sad tosay, but true. you aren't allowed to bypass protection even to exercise fair use rights, unless you're takig nadvantage of anexisting exemption (andthen fair use lets you off the hook for the REST of copyright law)

Fortunately the obsolete systems exemption is our friend here. If a system is no longer anufactured, OR no longer reasonably avaialbe in the marketplace, then you are allowed to dump the games for usage with alternate products, provided you aren't otherwise violatign copyright law.

Most arcades, all nintendo standalone consoles pre-gamecube, and all sega, atari, and NEC consoles are obsolete systems. threfore you can dump your carts/boards for play on your emulators, which is fair use. You can dump them to help you write your own emulator even if you don't own the carts provided you erase them when you are done.

As soon as the gba sp leavesproduction, the gameboy will become obsolete. The gba is not obsolete, and the ps1 is not obsolete because of backwards compatability in the ps2, and GBA is covered by the NIntendo DS.

X-BOx (and now psp as well) are a special case for mods. the modchips are usualy flash bios replacements, which come form the factory with a "clean bios" that cannot be used for piracy, and are then updated vy the end user to the real modchip flash. Because they come with clean code that doesn't break protection, they are legal.

most other console mods are illegal under the DMCA, and the obsolete systems exemption won't help you. "breaking off hte tabs so that imports will fit" doesn't break the dmca, because differently shaped plastics don't qualify as a technological measure.

usig proprietary media DOES< however, which is why the dmca made dumps for emulators illegal until the exemption was made.

[bpe]

Geez, these rules that once you have it, it's fine, remind me of a rule in a college where you could only have beer in your dorm room, but not in the hallways-then how are you supposed to get it to your room?!

Yep, we actually have laws in Belgium about marihuana that work exactly like this. It's legal to have it in your house, it's legal to smoke it, it's legal to have with you on the street (but only in small amounts, otherwise you're probably dealing).... but... it's illegal to buy it, to sell it, to import it, or to grow it.

So how you get it is not exactly clear, but once you have it, it's all good. Although I think there's an agreement to look the other way if you have one or two small plants in your house. Still, if you're dumb enough to put them near the window, the neighbors see this and they want to annoy you...


By the way, if you see some of the stupid lawsuits that have been started under the DMCA, I wouldn't be so sure that a piece of plastic can't be claimed as a technological measure.