Thunder Force III vs Thunder Force AC

[Sengoku Strider]

I wrote this in the 1CC thread, and it turned out to be pretty long so I was going to copy & paste it into a relevant thread for posterity, in case anyone ever googled the two looking for comparisons/opinions. Except to my shock & surprise, I couldn't find one. So here it is.

I finished Thunder Force III on MD a week or so back, just went back at it and got the 1CC after a couple of epic collapses at ORN Base (I hate that stupid boss).

Having now 1CCed both Thunder Force AC and Thunder Force III, I gotta say I'm surprised that:

1) III vs AC is a serious debate, and
2) That III seems to have come out ahead given how highly it rated in past top 25s on this site.

The main argument I've heard is that III is more challenging. I played the JP version, so I don't know if the Western revision got jacked up on the difficulty. But my experience was:

Levels - the main difference is that 2 levels were replaced from III in AC. Of those two, the rocky level, Haides, is quite memorable, but also contains several of the cheapest surprise deaths in the history of shooters. When you have the game at home to play as much as you want to memorize, that's not such a big deal. But I fully understand why they'd cut that for the arcade. There are untelegraphed traps that just will kill you the first few times through.

The other cut stage, the ice level Ellis, is thoroughly forgettable. The only things of note that happen here are the brief (and simple) vertical scrolling section, and the weird face-in-a-bubble thing that you evaporate in 2 seconds flat if you have sever. Nothing much was lost here.

Meanwhile, I thought the stages AC got were pretty cool. The space level that transitions to ruins and has you making some quick darts in & out of narrow spaces for bonuses is a nice risk/reward add. I haven't finished TF II yet, but I've heard the other temple/speed tunnel stage was cobbled together from that game? Either way, it's more memorable than ice Ellis was.

And the final stage - it gets one. Imagine my surprise in TF III when I got to stage 8, beat the wiggly arms guy who it throws at you right away, and then the last boss was just sitting right there behind him.

AC loses the level select, but honestly the only purpose that served for me in III was getting Seiren out of the way first. Stages were rebalanced to be a bit easier (or really, less cheap) in AC, and Seiren really needed it. The bubble currents were toned down, and every super-fast zako the level shoots at you isn't an M1 Abrams tank. The one exception was Gorgon, the flame-geyser & fireball traps were redone in AC to be tougher, and at least one of them the player won't see coming the first time through. The other element was that lot more hidden bonuses were added in AC, that's one thing I really noticed/missed in III.

I will say though, I was pretty shocked at the bosses at first. For some reason many of them are made of paper in AC and go down in 5 seconds, making for pretty unsatisfying fights. The fire-breathing Gargoyle at the end of Hydra is a complete pushover in AC, but was actually the toughest boss in III until the Orn Base, I thought. He tagged me a number of times until I learned to just start on another stage so I'd have sever (and hopefully claw) when I got to him, which took him down much faster. On the whole III didn't take me any longer to 1CC than AC did, though granted I had some foreknowledge from finishing AC before it (though a surprising amount didn't carry over).

Ultimately you're splitting a lot of hairs here, but the one major factor that plants me firmly both feet in the AC camp is the music. AC gets two new tracks for the new stages, both of which I prefer to the previous entries which they replaced. But the real capper is that it gets an extra sound channel, and thus sounds fuller, but more importantly it doesn't get quite so drowned out by the shot firing sound effects like it does in III, or not at all if you have the definitive Switch AGES version. In a game where rockin' tunes set so much of the energy and atmosphere, that really makes a difference.

All that said though, please don't interpret me as being down on TF III. Especially in its original context, fall 1990 in the West, the end of the Genesis' first full year, there was absolutely nothing comparable to it. I love Truxton & Fire Shark, but they're not the same kind of audio-visual tour de force. The TG-16's STG standard bearer was still Blazing Lazers a year on from launch, which while wonderful just wasn't doing quite as much, or doing it quite as big. The only NES shooters released in Q3 or 4 in 1990 were Silver Surfer and the rather obscure Thunderbirds (yep, based on the puppet show). Unless you want to include Solar Jetman. Which I do not. So yeah, I get how a generation of Sega players grew up remembering Thunder Force III as being completely jaw dropping and generally all-round badass.

[jehu]

Thanks for the write-up, S-S.

I never did a direct head-to-head on them like you, but I am one of the ones who prefers III. III sounds great, but AC does sound better. Though there are a few tracks I prefer from III, and one or two I really like that sadly went missing. Glad we have them both.

AC is enjoyable, but it folds over too easily. Especially given Hunter is completely broken with options and undermines a lot of the game's level design. It has been awhile, but I don't remember it being as much of a problem in III, though it's certainly there, too. (Speaking to your rundown of early 90s STGs -that's where Truxton/Fire Shark earn their stripes: they actually demand something of you.)

This might be one of those cases where people tend to prefer the one they played first.

[Steven]

III has stereo-of-the-art sound and AC is only in mono, so III wins.

[Rastan78]

III has stereo-of-the-art sound and AC is only in mono, so III wins.

The Ages version adds in stereo - of - the - art sound if you want to double your playing enjoyment.

Also don't sleep on the addition of alternate ships. At first I wondered why the control settings allow you to add autofire to speed change. They took a page from Image Fight. One ship let's you kill with the rocket blast from speed change as a back attack. There's a scoring incentive to it, so that can add an element of more risky and advanced routing to a game that's pretty straightforward.

AC and IV are some of those rare cases where I'd say the Ages ports are better than the originals (other than of course direct CRT compatability.

[Sengoku Strider]

AC is enjoyable, but it folds over too easily. Especially given Hunter is completely broken with options and undermines a lot of the game's level design. It has been awhile, but I don't remember it being as much of a problem in III, though it's certainly there, too.

Yeah, I'll grant you that one, this is a really strong point in TF III's favour. I didn't use hunter much in AC because, y'know, boooorrring. But in TF III enemies are tanky enough that hunter is actually useless on a lot of stages unless you have claw to pump up its firepower. In fact I did wonder if hunter was the exact reason why zako are so tanky in that game.

(Speaking to your rundown of early 90s STGs -that's where Truxton/Fire Shark earn their stripes: they actually demand something of you.)

I actually felt like that was the norm back in the day. Most all my encounters with shmups on NES - Life Force, Zanac, Legendary Wings etc., then on SNES - Gradius III, Super R-Type, UN Squadron - left me with the impression that it was just a really tough genre usually aimed at people with amazing reflexes. There were exceptions, but it was only years later that I came to understand the mentality to approach them with and how much difficulty could be alleviated through memory and smart play.

[jehu]

(Speaking to your rundown of early 90s STGs -that's where Truxton/Fire Shark earn their stripes: they actually demand something of you.)

I actually felt like that was the norm back in the day. Most all my encounters with shmups on NES - Life Force, Zanac, Legendary Wings etc., then on SNES - Gradius III, Super R-Type, UN Squadron - left me with the impression that it was just a really tough genre usually aimed at people with amazing reflexes. There were exceptions, but it was only years later that I came to understand the mentality to approach them with and how much difficulty could be alleviated through memory and smart play.

Yeah, actually, fair enough. I wasn't thinking about it while writing the last post, but I do think the relative laxness of III's difficulty is actually a selling point and one of its unique properties. Likely also why Compile has the staying power and the more mainstream (as mainstream as retro-gaming gets, anyway) appeal it does today. Still a great game to sit down with on any given evening if you're looking for something that won't demand your attention for a week or more. AC Ages on Switch is great, too. A real boon that AC and III are different enough to warrant the discussion we're having - more good games, the better.

Toaplan's got the design chops over III is all I was really trying to say. At least to my mind.

[Sengoku Strider]

Likely also why Compile has the staying power and the more mainstream (as mainstream as retro-gaming gets, anyway) appeal it does today.

Oh, absolutely. Zanac & Power Strike were tough as balls (never played PS back when, but a friend did have Zanac & I loved it despite never being able to beat it), but Blazing Lazers & Space Megaforce were both games I managed to finish back in the day. They were among the titles I was thinking of when I mentioned that there were exceptions. Megaforce in particular was well made enough that I finished it during a rental, but still bought it a year or two later when I found a loose cart for $20 and ended up playing it endlessly. I was forced to sell back in the 90s during a dry spell, but I have a boxed copy of Super Aleste now that's the crown jewel (to my mind) of my Super Famicom collection. Blazing Lazers I borrowed off a friend at the time, but a copy of Gunhed now sits on my shelf as well.

Toaplan's got the design chops over III is all I was really trying to say. At least to my mind.

I think most serious shmup fans would agree with that overall. Thunder Force III, IV & Elemental Master do seem to be at the top of a lot of people's Genesis/Mega Drive lists though. Toaplan didn't seem to ever have as many resources to throw at their MD titles as Technosoft did.

[bigbadboaz]

Without getting into real depth, to me AC was a disappointing downgrade both visually and in music. I certainly don't get any comments that it sounds better. Maybe that's because III is so cemented into minds that only the MD sounds "right", but for a game to be given an arcade "upgrade" and end up looking/sounding like this.. not at all what I was expecting.

It's at best a sidestep, and to these eyes the artistic choices made are not an improvement.

[Samildanach]

Having also compared the two I was surprised by how many enemy sprites they re-designed; pretty much all of them, including the Gorgon miniboss. I think, on the whole I prefer ACs enemy designs, especially the shells in Seiren which replaced the rather lame looking mines.
The background of Hydra on the other hand was a downgrade, looking far more generic than the very alien looking forest of III.

As for the levels themselves the ice world Ellis is definitely the weakest of all the levels, also the boss always looked a bit out of place (it barely fits between the ice) and looks a lot more appropriate in the Temple level. I love Haides though. Music, visual, the pure SPEED of it. Cheap deaths aside I am sorry to lose it in AC. The Space Ruins of AC however is a pretty worthy replacement, if a little easier.

The main difference between the jp version of III and the western releases is boss and enemy hit points. The western bosses melt more quickly in the western release, though not quite as badly as in AC. To me, this is the biggest fault of AC as, to my mind, the player should experience the challenge of having to dodge at least one full routine of boss attacks. When they die in mere seconds they seem a complete waste of the effort that went into designing them, not to mention the boss themes. The biggest miss in AC is phase 1 of the final boss having seemingly 1 HP. That irritates me so much as they added a second repeat miniboss to stage 8 to pad it out...why do that instead of keeping a pretty awesome fight? Grr.

By the way, the initial killer fireball spray of the Gargoyle can be reliably dodged by starting in about the 7-8 O'clock position and moving anticlockwise as the spreads come. After that, if he still lives by the next set, then he is on the far side rather than in your face, so much easier to dodge on the fly. The third boss also has a cunning pattern one can adopt. Stay in the centre of the big bubble spreads and move with the boss. He sends forward some annoying grey bullets down the centre but ALWAYS alternatively slightly above then below within the corridor between the big yellow bubbles.

Anyway, III mostly wins for me but it is very nice to have AC all the same and both are very much worth playing.

Thunder Spirits is worth a bash, though because of the terrible slowdown it is by far the easiest. It also replaces stage 6 and 8 with levels that look like they belong in a different game. They have a more subdued pallete and completely lose all the crazy adrenaline that inhabit the technosoft made levels. The only difficult bit, the asteroids in the second part of stage 6, is tough for all the wrong reasons. The final boss is a far less impressive opponent and somehow is even easier. The music is all tinny and dire, other than a bizarrely awesome track to the new stage 6. By far the worst of the three but still fun to playthrough.

[Steven]

III has stereo-of-the-art sound and AC is only in mono, so III wins.

The Ages version adds in stereo - of - the - art sound if you want to double your playing enjoyment.

Also don't sleep on the addition of alternate ships. At first I wondered why the control settings allow you to add autofire to speed change. They took a page from Image Fight. One ship let's you kill with the rocket blast from speed change as a back attack. There's a scoring incentive to it, so that can add an element of more risky and advanced routing to a game that's pretty straightforward.

AC and IV are some of those rare cases where I'd say the Ages ports are better than the originals (other than of course direct CRT compatability.

Sega Ages only has a few stereo tracks instead of everything, though... sadly I think that my playing enjoyment will only go up by about 60%. Does this mean that if I put Thunder Force AC in my New Astro City I can sue Sega for false advertising? Not for not having stereo-of-the-art sound, but because my playing enjoyment didn't get doubled. I almost bought a PCB when I found one about a year ago over at BEEP (for ~80000 yen, I believe), and I kind of regret missing it now.

I actually greatly prefer the Saturn version of Thunder Force IV over all other versions, though; better sound quality on Saturn due to it not cutting sound channels to play sound effects (although the sound effects are much worse on Saturn) and the complete removal of all slowdown = more challenging! Apparently the scoring is completely broken on Saturn because I always end up with like a million extra points on Saturn despite doing everything the same, though.

[BrianC]

Without getting into real depth, to me AC was a disappointing downgrade both visually and in music. I certainly don't get any comments that it sounds better. Maybe that's because III is so cemented into minds that only the MD sounds "right", but for a game to be given an arcade "upgrade" and end up looking/sounding like this.. not at all what I was expecting.

Part of the reason the sound (aside from voices, a dedicated chip is used for voice for system C) is inferior is that System C uses the Genesis 2 sound chip (YM3438) plus an extra bottleneck since it's driven by the main CPU.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

AC recycles a stage from Thunderforce II, so only really has one new level. The music for the space stage is also hidden in TFIVs omake sound test, unlocked after you beat the game.

AC gives sever away early on. It's hidden behind a tree in Hydra in III, allowing you to get a good start on that stage.

[Samildanach]

AC recycles a stage from Thunderforce II, so only really has one new level. The music for the space stage is also hidden in TFIVs omake sound test, unlocked after you beat the game.

AC gives sever away early on. It's hidden behind a tree in Hydra in III, allowing you to get a good start on that stage.

Yeah, the Temple level is a bit of a budget level despite having excellent gameplay. Having said that it is more of a mix of stage 6 and stage 8 of TFII (MD) with some stage 2 enemies too. Also the brickwork has a more aged, ivy covered look that wasn't present in the original temple stage, so there are enough differences for it to stand up on its own.

I am reminded by how truly brutal that level is in the original TFII, especially in the Sharp X68000 version; arguably the hardest level in Technosoft's whole repertoire. The TFII MD version has the best music though:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IQhs3LZ-b ... k&index=12
Banging tune!

[To Far Away Times]

Thunderforce III's OST is hard driven rock songs with a bit of techno. There's meant to be some distortion and the songs were composed that way. The arcade version sounds too clean, like its played through a chorus pedal.

It's kind of like when you play a metal song on guitar without distortion and it just ends up sounding like surfer music.

And the two stages that were replaced had the two best songs.

Honestly I think AC butchers the soundtrack.

[lovecraft]

See here:

https://youtu.be/vi1a_NQpIw8

[BrianC]

See here:

https://youtu.be/vi1a_NQpIw8

Crazy that the TFII stage still has the boss from the stage it replaced.

[BrianC]

I found something interesting with Thunder Spirits when trying the Fast ROM hack (which does make it a lot better, but not better than the MD or AC versions). Unlike AC, which still uses "Haides" for the stage, the high score screen in Thunder Spirits has "Detritus" as the name of the junk stage.

[Creamy Goodness]

I think I am the odd man out. For some reason AC is harder for me than III. I think it took me like less than 5 hours to 1cc III, but I could not get the same rhythm going for AC. Fantastic games no matter how you play though.

[Sengoku Strider]

It's so weird to read people talking about AC's sound as inferior. Since I started with AC, the music was the first thing about III that jumped out at me as a step down. But my AC experience is also entirely based on the AGES version on Switch, did M2 do any tinkering with the audio there?