Toaplan games coming to PC (Steam, GOG)

[-Fish-]

If you mess with the dip switch settings and increase lives or decrease difficulty your score is still uploaded to the no assists leaderboard. I hope it's a glitch as it currently makes the online leaderboard pointless.

[Steven]

I just (very politely!) sent this somewhat long list of fixes to Bitwave.

Spoiler

General improvements (all games)

Add option to run at the PCBs' native refresh rates. This may cause problems without a CRT or VRR monitor, so adding some kind of options to make the experience more enjoyable at these refresh rates on non-CRT/non-VRR monitors would be great.

Add option to have multiple autofire buttons of different values (example: having both a 10Hz button and a 30Hz button at the same time)

Screen settings do not seem to save when closing the game and reopening it

Adding gadgets with borders disabled seems to re-enable borders despite the boarders being disabled

Add labels to the audio visualization tools to display what channels they are

After closing a game and reopening it, games seem to default to using custom mode. Suggest either having the arcade mode be the default OR the last used setting

Suggest adding music track names and composer names to sound tests

Suggest adding music track names and composer names to in-game sound gadget

All games should default to difficulty setting B upon first boot

All games should default to having 3 ships at start of game

Add option to reset DIP switches to default difficulty/player stock/extend DIP switch values

Rework controller binding menu to be more intuitive

Rework menus in general to be more intuitive; currently you have to press left/right to cycle through settings, but this isn't indicated anywhere as far as I have seen, leading to some confusion as to how to operate the menus at first

Add button/key prompts in menus

Add mouse support to menus

Mouse cursor does not hide in fullscreen; recommend hiding mouse in fullscreen

Sound emulation is incorrect on all games, with music tempos fluctuating and all sound effects being played improperly

Online leaderboards track assisted gameplay on the non-assisted (arcade settings) leaderboard

Out Zone

Unusual ROM revision is used for the “Normal” version of the game. Recommend keeping this version, but adding the more common ROM revision as the default setting

Local high score table does not save player's name properly

Change online high score table to be “Normal” and “Hard” versions instead of “Easy” and “Hard”

Possible to get first death achievement by having enemy shot hit shield, causing player to get achievement without dying

Extend DIP switches mislabeled using Kyuukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra/Tatsujin values; should be 300,000 every (default setting), 200,000 and 500,000, 300,000, and NONE/OFF according to my Japanese Out Zone instruction manual

Credits: Add Wada Etsuhiro as programmer and Ogiwara Naoki as artist on original arcade versions

Zero Wing

Add option to re-enable red flash (but leave it off by default)

When launching the game for the first time, make the 1P version the default

Player shots and satellites clip through the game's HUD at the top of the screen

Possible to get first death achievement by having enemy shot hit bomb rather than player, causing player to get achievement without dying

Credits: add Tomizawa Toshiaki as composer on original arcade version

Kyuukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra

Extend DIP switches are mislabeled

When switching between Kyuukyoku Tiger and Twin Cobra, automatically set the extend DIP switches to match the game's appropriate extend settings (Kyuukyoku Tiger = 70,000/200,000 every, Twin Cobra = 50,000/150,000 every)

The devs have mentioned in interviews that the original Japanese 1P versions are the intended versions of their games, so maybe consider having Kyuukyoku Tiger be the default game upon launching game for the first time

Widescreen mode causes enemies to spawn in improper locations

Credits: Iwabuchi Koetsu/Kusaka Koetsu is inconsistently credited; this is the same person; he changed his family name to Kusaka after leaving Toaplan

Tatsujin/Truxton

Extend DIP switch settings are mislabeled

Extend settings should default to 70,000/200,000 every

Credits: add Ogiwara Naoki as artist on original arcade version

Hopefully these all get added! I hope I didn't miss anything.

[RobHimself]

The 'raw input' config menu for OutZone (the only one I've tried so far) is borderline impossible for me to use at the moment. Attempting to highlight a button to change highlights the one below it, and attempting to save a config seems to map every possible function to button '2'. The only thing that works correctly is restoring the default settings with the start button. I haven't heard anyone else complain about this issue, though, so perhaps there's something going on at my end?

Thankfully all I need to do to play the game comfortably is to turn on 30hz autofire, which is in another menu.

So hopefully this helps a bit, I found mapping initially in raw output to be strange. I'm using an arcade stick.

So as soon as you get in this screen, if you press the button that Out Zone recognizes as "2" (or press the button that corresponds to "UI Cancel"), it will delete whatever is currently assigned to "Up".


Then if you press the button that it recognizes as "1" (or press the button that corresponds to "UI Select"), it will display a white transparent box, and after you can press any button you like for "Up"


Here's what it looks like after I pressed "Up" on my Joystick (which is recognized as Up on the d-pad)


You can then press down on your d-pad, to go to the next option and do the same thing.

If you don't delete what is currently assigned, and you try to assign another button, you'll end up with two buttons assigned to a specific action. Looks like you can assign as many buttons as you want to each action as well.

[Steven]

I made a mistake; it seems that the player ships option is actually not how many ships it gives you but how many extra lives you start with, so if you set it to 2 you have 3 lives, 3 gives you 4, etc.

I also noticed that widescreen in Tatsujin seems to break the movement of item carriers. Enemy spawn locations seem fine, however, unlike Kyuukyoku Tiger's widescreen mode.

[Rastan78]

Add option to run at the PCBs' native refresh rates. This may cause problems without a CRT or VRR monitor, so adding some kind of options to make the experience more enjoyable at these refresh rates on non-CRT/non-VRR monitors would be great.

So these play at 60hz instead of the original refresh? I imagine K Tiger feels quite a bit faster.

[BrianC]

I made a mistake; it seems that the player ships option is actually not how many ships it gives you but how many extra lives you start with, so if you set it to 2 you have 3 lives, 3 gives you 4, etc.

From what I tried, this is only true of Truxton. The other games start out with 3 lives when I choose 3. It seems the video settings are saved, except that the game always starts windowed. The aspect ratio, scaling, and the choice between true or windowed fullscreen are all saved.

[Steven]

Add option to run at the PCBs' native refresh rates. This may cause problems without a CRT or VRR monitor, so adding some kind of options to make the experience more enjoyable at these refresh rates on non-CRT/non-VRR monitors would be great.

So these play at 60hz instead of the original refresh? I imagine K Tiger feels quite a bit faster.

You can select a few refresh rates: 50, 59.94, and 60. Maybe more, but my monitor only goes up to 60. I forget K Tiger's refresh rate, but Hishouzame's is 54.78 or something around that number according to MAME. K Tiger's hardware is very similar to Hishouzame's, so I imagine it's about the same. I believe the M2 ShotTriggers releases are supposed to remain in sync with their respective PCBs perfectly (they showed this off again recently with Daioujou when they announced it in December), although I don't know how, and I haven't tested it yet myself. The only ShotTriggers game that I have on PCB is Hishouzame anyway.

Anyway, yes, these do feel a little fast, and all I had to do to test was to start a game in Out Zone on PC and PCB simultaneously and sit there at the start location. My dude ran out of energy and died on PC a decent amount of time before he did on PCB. The music actually stays in sync, though, at least until you die. The music restarts when you respawn at the checkpoint and then it's out of sync, but until then the music syncs perfectly with the PCB as far as I can tell.

I made a mistake; it seems that the player ships option is actually not how many ships it gives you but how many extra lives you start with, so if you set it to 2 you have 3 lives, 3 gives you 4, etc.

From what I tried, this is only true of Truxton. The other games start out with 3 lives when I choose 3. It seems the video settings are saved, except that the game always starts windowed. The aspect ratio, scaling, and the choice between true or windowed fullscreen are all saved.

Yeah, but the frame thing also seems to default to on as well, and it seems that Tatsujin does properly hide the mouse cursor while Out Zone doesn't. It's kind of confusing to keep track of everything...

Hopefully it will all get fixed.

[Klatrymadon]

So hopefully this helps a bit, I found mapping initially in raw output to be strange. I'm using an arcade stick.

The UI for button bindings were definitely.. peculiar. To make the button bindable, you have to press separate "binding" button, when it's pressed, you see it highlighted. Then while keeping it down, you have to press the button you have to bind it to. But wait! In order it to register, you have to erase its previous binding first

Thanks so much for this, both! Those screens clear things up enormously, Rob - I must have reassigned something without noticing and caused a trainwreck from there. Got a much nicer stick layout now.

[FunktionJCB]

I don't use Reddit, but for those that do, they'll have a AMA session today at 2PM CET on r/shmups about these releases:

https://twitter.com/bitwavegames/status ... 7772696579

[MJR]

You can change the "Location" under "Game" in that system menu. Mine was originally set to Europe but I switched over to Japan. Did that change anything for you?
Interesting how there's Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Korea regions for selection.

I tried all the regions, and it's still the same "oldest" romset. I emailed the devs and got an answer: "We used the version we found to be the better option." - these people are crazy if they think this version is somewhat better

Anyway, I hope they will fix this, because otherwise this would be horrible missed opportunity. Great emulation wasted since there is no way I'm going to start playing that oldest romset. I dont want to touch the other games either if the situation is same over there.

[Sumez]

Didnt someone say the "harder" [dumb mame terminology] Romset was playable? In that case I don't really understand what the issue is. I agree it's the best option. The earlier revisions forgot to make enemies shoot on the first stage.

[MJR]

Didnt someone say the "harder" [dumb mame terminology] Romset was playable? In that case I don't really understand what the issue is. I agree it's the best option. The earlier revisions forgot to make enemies shoot on the first stage.

Terminology has changed with Mame revisions, as of May 2022 revision (Mame 0.244) there is the main set, which is apparently the "final", then there is zero wing conversion,harder, old set, older set, and the oldest set.. which they chose to use for their emulation because it's "better" according to them. They also said: "we're collecting all the feedback to see if it's possible to implement content from the others.".. but that's crazy talk, I find it unlikely that you could just cherry pick features from other ROM revisions like you had a LEGO set. You choose a rom revision and run it, it's not like having a source code which you then recompile. I know that M2 can alter the games a little bit, but they are crazies who write their own virtual hardware.



It's their choice which rom they choose to use, and choosing the oldest set and then talking like this is not making me very confident that they understand what they are doing I am still hoping that they eventually come to their senses and include the final rom set in the release.

[Jeneki]

I have to wonder if that's just corporate-speak for "this is what we were given".

[Steven]

I know that M2 can alter the games a little bit

To my knowledge M2 has altered Get Star, Tiger-Heli, and Teki-Paki. These cases are sprite swaps, likely for colorblind players, as I believe one of the guys who works on these said he is colorblind on one of the streams they did a long time ago where they showed off Teki-Paki.

They did also add boss timers where they previously didn't exist, as well, notably on Kyuukyoku Tiger. I just realized that I forgot to test the final boss on Bitwave's version of this game to see if the infinite score thing is fixed there or not. Good thing there is a training mode so I don't have to play the entire 40+ minute game to get there lol

Lol I forgot where you are supposed to position yourself to do the counterstop without getting annihilated by the boss and it's 0300 and I have work tomorrow. Someone who remembers it can test it, I guess.

I tried all the regions, and it's still the same "oldest" romset. I emailed the devs and got an answer: "We used the version we found to be the better option." - these people are crazy if they think this version is somewhat better

That's... concerning. I have never seen this revision of the game before as far as I know, so this is my first time playing it. When I played it here I honestly thought I was playing a beta version of the game or something. It's just... wrong. Missing features, different enemies appearing, wrong music on the wrong stages, rank (and subsequently enemy bullet speed) increasing way faster than it should... I don't know. It feels like an unfinished version of the game compared to the normal revision that I've been playing for the past 2 months now.

Anyway, I hope they will fix this, because otherwise this would be horrible missed opportunity. Great emulation wasted since there is no way I'm going to start playing that oldest romset. I dont want to touch the other games either if the situation is same over there.

Of this first batch, Out Zone is in the worst place by far. Aside from audio and speed issues, the others are mostly okay, although the widescreen modes do really weird things in Tatsujin and especially K Tiger.

Enemy movement Tatsujin looks really weird in widescreen, especially with item carriers seeming to follow the player's movements, although I'd have to check again with MAME/MiSTer to see how they move there. I don't typically play this game since I was waiting for this release, and out of these 4 games, this is the one I am least familiar with by a huge amount.

K Tiger is the more problematic one, as enemies definitely seem to not spawn in the correct locations at all, but it might also depend on player positioning. I'd have to mess around with it some more to find out, but it's weird for sure. Easy enough to test, I guess.

[reckon luck]

Really hope the devs can address some of these issues soon, major problems with Out Zone have got me wondering about refunding.

[Jeneki]

Really hope the devs can address some of these issues soon, major problems with Out Zone have got me wondering about refunding.

I think it depends on someone's experience with the game. I'm no expert on the game and I've only played enough to post a 1st loop clear in the hi-score board here, but I noticed some unexpected oddities on my first play on this version. This won't be my favorite way to play it (unless updates come), but the game is responsive enough that I don't immediately dislike playing it.

If someone has no experience with Outzone, none of this really applies and honestly I wouldn't suggest they refund it. Outzone is still awesome and worth playing.

[Sumez]

Didnt someone say the "harder" [dumb mame terminology] Romset was playable? In that case I don't really understand what the issue is. I agree it's the best option. The earlier revisions forgot to make enemies shoot on the first stage.

Terminology has changed with Mame revisions, as of May 2022 revision (Mame 0.244) there is the main set, which is apparently the "final", then there is zero wing conversion,harder, old set, older set, and the oldest set..

So "harder" is still there, doesn't seem like it's changed from what I wrote and you quoted.
Someone else in this thread wrote that that version is playable in the PC port, so if that's the case it doesn't sound like a major problem to me.

[Klatrymadon]

This one doesn't matter so much to me, but Zero Wing's achievement system is convinced I've just cleared the first four stages with a friend.

[FunktionJCB]

This one doesn't matter so much to me, but Zero Wing's achievement system is convinced I've just cleared the first four stages with a friend.

The same thing happened to me.

As another user explained to me, it seems the game is launching the 2P version by default, and you have to change it in the settings.
Most achievements I unlocked say "2P single player", which I supposed is right in theory (I played single player, in the 2P mode), but I got one called "Co-Op Curious (Try a full co-op game)", and that surely isn't right.

[MJR]

Didnt someone say the "harder" [dumb mame terminology] Romset was playable? In that case I don't really understand what the issue is. I agree it's the best option. The earlier revisions forgot to make enemies shoot on the first stage.

Terminology has changed with Mame revisions, as of May 2022 revision (Mame 0.244) there is the main set, which is apparently the "final", then there is zero wing conversion,harder, old set, older set, and the oldest set..

So "harder" is still there, doesn't seem like it's changed from what I wrote and you quoted.
Someone else in this thread wrote that that version is playable in the PC port, so if that's the case it doesn't sound like a major problem to me.

Yes, I misread your post, thought I read ”hardest”. Happens.
There is no other version present in Steam version but the one that seem to match with the set called ”oldest”. And that is a major problem.

[Leandro]

I got Truxton. I liked it a lot, but I noticed the sound inconsistency. Otherwise it's perfect to me, totally worth it. Snappy and responsive, worked wonderfully with my Stick.

I wonder if DEL and Mills got this version already. They are the authority on Truxton

Enviado de meu 2201116SG usando o Tapatalk

[BrianC]

Yes, I misread your post, thought I read ”hardest”. Happens.
There is no other version present in Steam version but the one that seem to match with the set called ”oldest”. And that is a major problem.

The harder version isn't under the "game" menu, it's in the "version" menu.

[BBH]

3. no red flash in Zero Wing

FWIW, MAME's had a way of removing the red flash for a long time - there's a Cheat that does it, so just grab the big cheat pack off the internet, turn it on, and game is now playable without destroying your eyeballs.

I can't speak for the input lag in these ports but MAME feels fine to me?

[MJR]

Yes, I misread your post, thought I read ”hardest”. Happens.
There is no other version present in Steam version but the one that seem to match with the set called ”oldest”. And that is a major problem.

The harder version isn't under the "game" menu, it's in the "version" menu.

I know it is, I tested it. It plays exactly the same way as the "oldest" set with mame. Wrong soundtrack order. Trees missing in stage 2. So therefore, I dont care what the version menu suggests in Steam when every version has these same issues. This is a major problem.

[Steven]

3. no red flash in Zero Wing

FWIW, MAME's had a way of removing the red flash for a long time - there's a Cheat that does it, so just grab the big cheat pack off the internet, turn it on, and game is now playable without destroying your eyeballs.

MAME destroys my eyeballs anyway due to the stutter. I hate MAME, and given a choice of play on MAME or don't play at all, I choose don't play at all for this exact reason.

[Sumez]

I'm not one to champion mame given I never use emulation to actually play games, but I still love it as an archive and documentation of arcade technology, and if it didn't recognize the framerate these games originally run at it would be failing at its job (as it has in the past).
And in the defense of mame - all the things you're complaining about right now, are things that can quite easily be configured. Like BBH said, the screen flash feature is so mechanically simple it can be removed with a cheat hack. And I'd be very surprised if you can't force MAME to run Zero Wing and Out Zone at 60fps.

[Steven]

Having things run at the speeds they are supposed to run at is good, but when the stuttering that that causes is so bad that it causes me to physically flinch every time it happens, I would not consider that to be playable. Zero Wing is actually the game that does it to me the most on MAME; I can't play that game on MAME because I feel like I'm having a seizure or something. Can I configure MAME to get rid of all of these annoyances? I don't know. Probably. I tried before but I wasn't able to figure it out, so I gave up because I am lazy.

Red flash doesn't bother me that much at all, BTW. I know not everyone likes it, though.

I checked out Kyuukyoku Tiger's widescreen mode and I found something extremely strange; it might just be me, but I think the player helicopter actually moves more slowly in widescreen! In widescreen it also moves faster in the attract mode than it does when actually playing, too, which is really odd.

If anyone cares/wants to see the widescreen, here is part of the first stage in widescreen compared to the first stage and a half in the regular screen mode. There is no reset function on these that I have seen, so to restart the game you have to select a new game or change some DIP switches.

I just put this up, so it's probably going to be in SD for now, but here you go. It's not just me, right? The helicopter does actually move more slowly than it's supposed to in widescreen, doesn't it?

https://youtu.be/TNdJpW9WqJY

[MJR]

Having things run at the speeds they are supposed to run at is good, but when the stuttering that that causes is so bad that it causes me to physically flinch every time it happens, I would not consider that to be playable. Zero Wing is actually the game that does it to me the most on MAME; I can't play that game on MAME because I feel like I'm having a seizure or something. Can I configure MAME to get rid of all of these annoyances? I don't know. Probably. I tried before but I wasn't able to figure it out, so I gave up because I am lazy.

Red flash doesn't bother me that much at all, BTW. I know not everyone likes it, though.

I checked out Kyuukyoku Tiger's widescreen mode and I found something extremely strange; it might just be me, but I think the player helicopter actually moves more slowly in widescreen! In widescreen it also moves faster in the attract mode than it does when actually playing, too, which is really odd.

If anyone cares/wants to see the widescreen, here is part of the first stage in widescreen compared to the first stage and a half in the regular screen mode. There is no reset function on these that I have seen, so to restart the game you have to select a new game or change some DIP switches.

I just put this up, so it's probably going to be in SD for now, but here you go. It's not just me, right? The helicopter does actually move more slowly than it's supposed to in widescreen, doesn't it?

https://youtu.be/TNdJpW9WqJY

I think it's an optical illusion caused by the fact that screen is not scrolling horizontally any more. Remember that the horizontal scrolling creates the feel of horizontal movement as well. What made me sure is that the vertical movement looks 100% same, it's the horizontal movement that looks slower.

Which, in turn, reveals that the widescreen mode is a really dumb idea - the whole game was designed to be played on vertical aspect ratio.

[Steven]

That is what I thought as well, but then I saw the horizontal speed in the attract mode and I'm not sure what to think now.

I checked that same recording frame by frame and it seems that, yes, it does actually move more slowly in widescreen mode. In the attract mode in widescreen and in the regular aspect ratio it seems to move 1 pixel per frame and then 2 pixels per frame, alternating. In widescreen in actual gameplay, it only moves 1 pixel per frame. I don't know if this is the best way to test this, especially since the footage is at 60Hz, which is technically too fast, but it is what came to mind.

[SPM]

The speed shown in the attract mode in your video is Twin Cobra's speed despite having the KT heli (grey). Something minor they could patch. When playing however, I'd say the heli moves at the speed it should, it just seems too slow for a vertizontal approach.

I like the widescreen mode, it's a fun arrange, but may be better suited for Twin Cobra's speed.

It needs some work though! Helicopters, powerups and transitions between stages behave as if we were on the left side. It should be centered. Look at that landing! XD