[flamebait] Someone's top 5 best looking 2D game list

[Neon]

could explain to them about resolution, animation, etc.

Not that it matters that much, but the reply is too douche-baggish to ignore.

[jp]

If they think Guilty Gear has great animation I think they are far past any point of "This is good, this is not. This is good, this is not."


Meh, I'll just link the article on neo-geo.com and assembler. Those guys will devour them 20x faster than I could, and they'll probably think up better looking 2D games since mine is obviously Saturn biased anyways. *shrugs*

But dammit, Astal, Princess Crown, and Astra Superstars are still the most beautiful 2D games I've ever seen. SF3 and Mark of the Wolves just had amazing animation.

[Andi]

Here is the reply I got:
"

Hello JP! Much thanks for your email! Not that it really makes much sense, but thank you. Please rest assured knowing that we just didn't start playing videogames last week. We've gone through plenty of 2D games, and it wasn't our intention to select what's popular. In fact, if 2D games on new hardware look better than 2D games developed for 15 year old hardware...well that's just the way it is. We don't need to consult enthusiasts on the matter, mostly because we are enthusiasts. However, we're very curious to know what you're top five best looking 2D games are. Again, thank you for your feedback.

Chris Buffa, Editor in Chief
GameDaily"

I think this is a pretty civil letter to send to some dude on the internet telling me that my list was crap and I obviously don't play very many games. Mine would say something more like:

"JP,

Please, spare me."

-Andi"

[jp]

I think this is a pretty civil letter to send to some dude on the internet telling me that my list was crap and I obviously don't play very many games. Mine would say something more like:

"JP,

Please, spare me."

-Andi"

Sorry that I like to voice my opinion as opposed to sit around on a message board and talk shit about a site. How dare I do such a thing! God forbid I address it if I disagree with a website.

Stupid shit aside...


Here's the response I sent:
"Very well then.



5. Metal Slug 3 (Arcade/Neo-Geo AES/Xbox/PS2) - You guys got that part right. If I had to choose one I'd say MS3 is the most impressive to me... but mainly because I prefer the enemies/levels in it as opposed to the ones in 4 and 5. But yeah, great animations, details, etc



4. Astra Superstars (Arcade/Saturn) - The animations... the size of the characters... the art... the speed at which the game runs... the attacks... the backgrounds... the list goes on and on. Everything about this game is breath taking. And it definitely utilized the Saturn's 4MB cart to the fullest.



3. Princess Crown (Saturn/PSP(?)) - Beautiful animation. Beautiful usage of sprites. Truly one of the most remarkable 2D games ever made. Gameplay is a bit shallow... but since we're going for pure aesthetics here. Also, I have no clue if the PSP version exists or if it is on par with the Saturn version.



2. Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves aka Garou: Mark of the Wolves (Arcade/Neo-Geo AES/DC/PS2) - Almost on par with SF3 as far as animation goes. A little bit less impressive...



1. Street Fighter III (Arcade/DC/PS2) - The pinnacle of animation in 2D gaming. Hands down the smoothest looking 2D fighter ever made.

Runners up:
01. Astal (Saturn) - Beautiful game, large sprites, solid animations, and an amazing color palette.

02. Mars Matrix (Arcade/DC) - Millions and millions of bullets on the screen and nary a drop of slowdown. Beautiful animations as well. Probably one of, if not THE, most impressive "2D" shooters ever made.

03. Cotton 2 (Arcade/Saturn) - Another 2D shooter filled with large sprites, great animation, a beautiful color palette, and great design.



At any rate, I apologize if I came off a bit irate earlier. But I mean honestly, Loco Roco and Lumines? Are you kidding? Yoshi's Island? I mean, sure, they may be nice looking games, but the pinnacles of 2D? Loco Roco looks like something you'd dig out of newgrounds.com, Lumines really isn't that impressive from a 2D enthusiast stand point, and while the overall design and look of Yoshi's Island is superb, its still a SNES game. Not to take away from the 16-bit era, but those consoles really couldn't hang with the likes of the Saturn/Neo-Geo AES/Dreamcast in terms of pure 2D power. Don't get me wrong, for its time and for the SNES, Yoshi's Island is a VERY impressive looking game. But it can't even begin to hang with the sheer quality of animation in any of the games I listed above.



As for Guilty Gear... that's really a mixed bag. Most 2D enthusiasts I've encountered (i.e. Neo-Geo fanatics, people that actually track down and spend $100+ on Astra Superstars, PCB enthusiasts, etc.) feel that the series has very poor animation despite being one of the only high-res 2D games. Personally, I think Guilty Gear X looks impressive, but I still weigh solid animation far heavier than high-res graphics and special effects. And while GGX has its moments as far as animation goes... it doesn't even compete in that regard with virtually anything listed above.



Of course, I'm sure a ton of people would disagree with my list as well. There's a ton of arcade games I haven't played that supposedly look gorgeous (i.e. Dolphin Blue), and I'm sure there's some Neo-Geo AES/Saturn/DC games kicking around in the back of my head that I'm not thinking of at 1AM in the morning.

jp"


So... yes.

[Middlemoor]

SFA3 on the GBA is pretty impressive.

[sethsez]

...Mars Matrix? I mean... yeah, it's technically impressive I guess, but "technically impressive" does not mean "gorgeous." That game's uglier than my cat's asshole. For all the great things it has going for it, style is not one of them.

I'm also not a huge fan of Astal. Yes, it's very impressive technically but again, I'm not crazy about what it does with said skill because it just looks so... generic (it's a bit like a meticulously designed fantasy novel cover... yes, tons of work was put into it and you can clearly see all the talent involved, but in the end it's still a knight fighting a dragon in a cave on a pile of gold). Still, I would agree with this long long long before Mars Matrix.

As for their list, though mine would obviously be different I can't argue with most of it (Guilty Gear is the most iffy to me). Loco Roco's style is gorgeous and unique, and Yoshi's Island is still one of the most charming approaches to 2D graphics I've seen. Yoshi's Story... less so, but it didn't get its own unique entry so I'll ignore it.

In any case, I'm glad they didn't consult "2D game experts" who more often than not are too in love with various anime styles to give credit to anything else (remember Recap?). It's a very narrow view on what can be done with 2D graphics.

I mean honestly, Loco Roco and Lumines? Are you kidding? Yoshi's Island? I mean, sure, they may be nice looking games, but the pinnacles of 2D? Loco Roco looks like something you'd dig out of newgrounds.com, Lumines really isn't that impressive from a 2D enthusiast stand point, and while the overall design and look of Yoshi's Island is superb, its still a SNES game.

You're very focused on the technical aspects, but the technical aspects aren't what hold up over time, the art design is. Lumines, for example, isn't impressive from a 2D enthusiast standpoint, but it's very impressive from a graphic design standpoint. And that ensures that it won't age badly when the amount of animation it contains or the resolution it runs at are no longer impressive.

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but your approach to 2D graphics is very similar to many people's approach to 3D graphics. Poly count, shaders, texture sizes, bump mapping and normal mapping and everything else. Being technically impressive only matters if the end result is worth looking at, and between Mars Matrix and Yoshi's Island, I know which requires more power to run, and I know which I'd rather watch.

[jp]

SFA3 on the GBA is pretty impressive.

GBA does have some impressive shit. Iridion II comes to mind...

[Herr Schatten]

What Seth said. Especially the bit about Lumines.

Additionally, I cannot believe no one mentioned Monster World IV and Keio Yuugekitai: Katsugekihen.

[99pence]

Additionally, I cannot believe no one mentioned Monster World IV and Keio Yuugekitai: Katsugekihen.

The pixel positions on SS Keio are just incredible. Genius. ...and the rest.


I just love 2D.

[TVG]

wow, this topic has gone ugly, but that was to be expected.
aesthetics is a subjective thing, the list is not going to be the same as yours no matter how you put it. despite being old, yoshi island is unique, and that about sums it up.

and since when were people at NG.com and PCB loonies the absolute judges on what looks good, i tought these people were the worst in the universe.

fighting game PLAYERS seem to agree that GG looks damn good, because they don't have a fetish for CPS, NG software. i guess it's a bit less popular in the US than in europe and japan, but no one cares.
the animation is not crappy, it sucks compared to 3S and garou, but it's awesome compared to other about every other 2D fighter.

I know GG is not as sophisticated as Third Strike

you're wrong.[/quote]

[D]

I know GG is not as sophisticated as Third Strike

you're wrong.

[/quote]
Glad to be wrong here actually. I meant with balancing between characters and brokenness and stuff. Talking about the GGX for DC.
That's what I keep hearing anyway and I was refering to that.
My fav characetr by far is CHIPP. He has everything you'll ever need and more. Nobody in my surrounding plays fighting games only Mortal Kombat or anything american. And Soccer Pro Evo5.
I have no-one to fight against, so I coulnd't tell anyway.
Speaking of the GG franchise whats different between the GGX and the latest version? new buttons? new moves? new system?
Does the PAL versions have 60 hz options?

[RoninBuddha]

aesthetics is a subjective thing,

well, the thing is, there will always be common standards

and the vg industry as a whole also has standards...
sure it's subjective, but it's the same case with movies or music, the "best ones" arent necessarily the stuff of legend... to you or some few at least,
it's hard not to point out stuff which the majority of the audience seem to like or dislike,

[TVG]

I know GG is not as sophisticated as Third Strike

you're wrong.

Glad to be wrong here actually. I meant with balancing between characters and brokenness and stuff. Talking about the GGX for DC.
That's what I keep hearing anyway and I was refering to that.
My fav characetr by far is CHIPP. He has everything you'll ever need and more. Nobody in my surrounding plays fighting games only Mortal Kombat or anything american. And Soccer Pro Evo5.
I have no-one to fight against, so I coulnd't tell anyway.
Speaking of the GG franchise whats different between the GGX and the latest version? new buttons? new moves? new system?
Does the PAL versions have 60 hz options?[/quote]

GG is really a game you need to see a good player play to understand it's greatness. it has so many options and possibilities it's crazy. people go nuts at the daigo parry video, but GG players pull stuff much, much harder than that all the time. the only one i played at high level, or, to be more accurate, sucked ass at but played some of the best players in europe on a regular basis is GGX, the first one, but the changes are minimal if you dont play competitively. if you do, however, the changes are drastic and definitely worth a buy. new moves, old moves get different proprieties (basically become new moves), new chars, more options avaliable which change the gameplay alot, balance issues fixed etc...nothing that really matters if you don't have decent people to play against.

i know some people just don't like it and say it's broken etc...i think that comes from the fact that it's the less newbie friendly game in the universe.
if you're just an average player, and you're playing against someone good, you might as well just put aside the controller and the result will be the same, because you won't move at all.
the only one i bought was GGX on DC, but i know for fact that GGXX on ps2 doesnt have a 60HZ option, not sure about the other ones.

[jp]

In any case, I'm glad they didn't consult "2D game experts" who more often than not are too in love with various anime styles to give credit to anything else (remember Recap?). It's a very narrow view on what can be done with 2D graphics.

Dunno about that. If I want to know what the top 5 best wines are I'll be much more quick to ask a wine afficiando as opposed to a frat boy. If I want to know what kind of software I need in my computer I'd much rather ask a Computer Engineer than a techie. If I want to know about horror movies I'll be sure to ask the dude with the stack of Fulci/Argento DVDs over the chic that goes to them with her boyfriend on occassion.

Thats just my thoughts on that though. Personally, I value the opinions and "lists" of people who are really into whatever much higher than those who are just passive fans.

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but your approach to 2D graphics is very similar to many people's approach to 3D graphics. Poly count, shaders, texture sizes, bump mapping and normal mapping and everything else. Being technically impressive only matters if the end result is worth looking at, and between Mars Matrix and Yoshi's Island, I know which requires more power to run, and I know which I'd rather watch.

Eh... I was just pointing out more technically impressive games since I figured thats what they were trying to say originally (though I was wrong, I later found out). My PERSONAL favorite 2D games of all time list would virtually exclusively contain DC/Saturn/PC-Engine CD games... but since I didn't think I would remotely be taken serious for going that "obscure"... I just opted to go with the general consensus from here, neo-geo.com, etc.
As for Mars Matrix... man... that was just 1AM talking. :p That and me trying to think of at least ONE shmup to throw in there... just for the good fight and all that.



Anyways, I got another reply:
"Hello JP. Good to hear from you, and I agree that the games that you mentionedare very impressive looking. Obviously, whenever a site comes out and takes theposition like we did it's going to cause a large debate. People write angryemails to us, tell us we're idiots, then give us their top five...we look attheir top five, disagree, and nobody wins. It's just one of those situationswhere very few people are going to be happy. The 2D fighters were probably the most difficult to omit because they're theeasiest ones to include. Capcom's got what seems like 100s of them, and thenthere's SNK to consider. I am lucky enough to own that Fatal Fury as well asStreet Fighter III, but while they're pretty, I just don't consider them asvisually striking as most of the Guilty Gear games, and our staff was adamantabout that issue. What I like the most about our list, and this is something I noticed after ithad gone up, is that the games have very unique appearances. Lumines is thedark horse, I agree..yet in terms of visuals it dominates its genre, and takinginto account 2D games in general, very few titles compare. And the same can besaid of LocoRoco, Yoshi's Island (Yoshi's Story is debatable), Metal Slug 3(and 4 and 5), and Guilty Gear. Is it up for debate whether these are truly thebest looking 2D games? Definitely. But these games buck the trend by featuringunique elements that separate them from the pack. Indeed, the games that youmentioned look good, but a lot of them look like other games that I've seenbefore. We were looking for unique, fresh, distinct, and attractive, and wefeel that each of those games meet the criteria. There are lots of greatlooking 2D fighters...but animations notwithstanding, Capcom and SNK's retrosprites cannot stand up next to Guilty Gear. That's where we seem to disagreeand that's cool. Disagreements definitely don't stop with our readers, as we have plenty ofarguments in the office. Just today one of our staff members wrote a storyabout how Time Crisis needs to be made into a movie, and when I read that Iwent crazy for about 5 seconds. We're planning to launch another (and moreconcrete) top five this Friday, and we've been arguing since the weekend aboutthat, so it'll be interesting to see how that turns out. But again, youmentioned a lot of fantastic looking games that definitely deserve a mention,and I appreciate your input. Take care! Chris"


I'm not even going to reply. From this I gather that the only games I mentioned that these people have ever seen were SF3 and MotW. They might have googled some images from Astal and Princess Crown, but somehow I get the feeling I would have gotten the same response had my top 5 list been:
5. Metal Slug 5
4. Sapphire
3. Panzer Dragoon Saga
2. Border Down
1. Under Defeat

Yes, Astra Superstars looks like a lot of other games you've seen? Indeed.

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Another thing you have to think about regarding 2D fighters is the long-term. Capcom forced themselves into a corner regaring the SF3 series. Since like any other 2D fighting game company Capcom re-uses sprites so they lost pretty much an entire roster that could have been used in future games/compilations.

Granted people are still playing SF3:3s but the sales never caught up to the costs involved in making the game. And since the characters/sprites/animation are so above the standard it'd be too much trouble to re-use them for other games(Also note that unlike the CP2 hardware the CPS3 hardware saw the release of very few games and was thus not very popular compared to the Naomi hardware which was much cheaper to produce for)

SNK and Sammy re-use sprites like hell and keep the animations fairly low. It's cheaper and allows the developers to move the characters through multiple hardwares with less work.

Regarding the Guilty Gear series. Hi-res sprites are really expensive. 2D games in general are already rather pricey to produce(especially fighting games with entirely new character sets) but hi-res requires a ton of resources. So obviously a few things like animation had to be scaled back. Also even if Sammy/Arc had the resources they probably would still avoid heaping on the animation because it doesn't work with the gameplay. The gameplay relies a lot on roman cancels and gatling combos. Additional animations would screw up the timing of roman cancels and gatling combos would look very lousy and would require even more work to look natural.

All the same they're still good looking games but hey even in 2D graphics aren't everything.
-------
As for the list I agree with Metal Slug and Yoshi's Island.

Metal Slug is un-matched in terms of run & gun shooters visually. All of the sprites are amazingly detailed with fluid animation, the backgrounds are filled with wonderful touches, hell the entire games are always interesting to play through to see everything happening.

Yoshi's Island is a wet dream of special effects. Graphically it's solid with charming animations and well-crafted character designs. However what really makes it stand out is all of the crazy effects that really put life into the game. Late gen SNES games had some really cool stuff going on when the developers started to push the hardware in new directions.(Kirby's Adventure 3 is also nice, the entire game looks like it was drawn with crayons..very unique style)

----------
But I'll toss some knocks around as well.

Princess Crown has amazing animation and great sprite work no question. But the backgrounds are HORRENDOUS. Seriously the backgrounds are re-used constantly(30 dungeons and caves all look exactly the same), are pretty much lifeless in terms of issues such as background animation. Basically it felt like I could have been running across a blank screen because I felt so out of touch with the environment. Gameplay sucks too but hey... No way would I put the game on a "best 2D" list. Same reason why I wouldn't put any Cave shooters on the list(Again nice backgrounds but zero animation and thus zero life..but hey it is a design choice I imagine. Getting distracted by people running around in the streets of ESPrade would probably get me hit by a bullet)

jp- Why would you list three fighting games? Especially since you admit to one of them having weaker animation and one of those is so obscure I've never even heard of it.

-----
My picks btw so people can bash them

1. Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike- Nobody can argue with this as it is an absolutely flawless masterpiece in terms of 2D graphics.

2. Guardian Heroes- Sprites are low-res as hell and slowdown is prevalent but this game throws a lot of stuff around. On-screen you'll see six or more very well animated characters going at it throwing huge fireballs and doing crazy special moves. Granted the game's artstyle won't win any awards but as a cohesive whole it looks wonderful.

3. Metal Slug- For reasons I mentioned earlier.

4. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night- Astounding animation/art/backgrounds/spritework/special effects/etc. Really if I were to make a list this would be #1 by a fair margin.

5. Beyond Oasis: It's not groundbreaking by any means but it's well animated, looks clean, and doesn't blow itself even when an area becomes packed with enemies. It's nice, trim, proper and still looks exceptional to this day. It's not mindblowing but it's perfectly executed and finely crafted. IMO it is the best looking Genesis game.

[jp]

PepsiManvsJoe:

For the most part, I would be very inclined to agree with your list as well. I listed Princess Crown just because of the sheer beauty of the animation in it.

Astra Superstars had to be on there for me as well... since... well, its a beautiful game with great animations, special effects, and it moves so lightning fast and fluidly.

MotW was just something I snagged from the neo-geo crowd. Though I do consider it a beautiful game, and it would probably be in there anyways.

[Benjamin]

Additionally, I cannot believe no one mentioned Monster World IV and Keio Yuugekitai: Katsugekihen.

I love both games, but neither really is visually impressive, at least to me. They're both very competent at what they do, but both games aren't really jaw droppers. My gripe with the list, besides the selection, is that it features a number of games which rely on 3-D graphics for their display and/or special effects.

Personally, I'm insulted The Adventures of Batman & Robin isn't on anyone's list. It's pretty much the pinacle of 2-D parallax and special effects as far as I'm concerned, and it, Third Strike, Astal, Rayman, and probably Red Earth would round out my top five.

[sethsez]

Dunno about that. If I want to know what the top 5 best wines are I'll be much more quick to ask a wine afficiando as opposed to a frat boy. If I want to know what kind of software I need in my computer I'd much rather ask a Computer Engineer than a techie. If I want to know about horror movies I'll be sure to ask the dude with the stack of Fulci/Argento DVDs over the chic that goes to them with her boyfriend on occassion.

Thats just my thoughts on that though. Personally, I value the opinions and "lists" of people who are really into whatever much higher than those who are just passive fans.

I'd agree with the comparison if most 2D obsessive fans had any artistic frame of reference outside of Japanese videogames, but the vast majority do not. They're not wine afficianados, they're closer to rich guys who buy the most expensive wine they can find, especially if the label and bottle are impressive.

I'll be honest, though the games you listed (aside from Metal Slug) are well drawn and animated, I find their styles to be almost wholely derivative and uninspiring. Loco Roco does more with its extremely minimal graphics than Princess Crown does with all its frames of animation as far as I'm concerned (and Pepsiman is right, the backgrounds are borderline awful).

And that's the case with most 2D afficianados. Much like 3D afficianados, a certain preferred style is chosen and then the most technically impressive recreation of that style is hailed as the best. It's limiting, and as time goes on it has less and less to do with actual artistic merit.

[Ganelon]

There are lots of greatlooking 2D fighters...but animations notwithstanding, Capcom and SNK's retrosprites cannot stand up next to Guilty Gear.

Now if they just said that in the first place, I wouldn't have had any complaints. Sure, it still seems that the IGN folks are mostly ignorant of JP-only games but at least it's pure opinion there, even if I totally disagree with them (except for Yoshi's Island).

BTW, jp, you realize that a computer engineer is focused more on the hardware side of computers than software, right?

[Acid King]

All this talk of 2d greatness and no mention of Rayman? That makes me sad and a little hungry. If I were to put a fighting game on there, it'd be either Samurai Shodown 2 or 4. SF3 and Guilty Gear are nice but I've always thought their character designs were lame.

[jp]

There are lots of greatlooking 2D fighters...but animations notwithstanding, Capcom and SNK's retrosprites cannot stand up next to Guilty Gear.

Now if they just said that in the first place, I wouldn't have had any complaints. Sure, it still seems that the IGN folks are mostly ignorant of JP-only games but at least it's pure opinion there, even if I totally disagree with them (except for Yoshi's Island).

BTW, jp, you realize that a computer engineer is focused more on the hardware side of computers than software, right?

I'm yet to meet a Computer Engineer that knows any less about software than someone in Computer Science.

[RoninBuddha]

Samurai Shodown 4

you've got to be kidding

err, palyed SamSho3 yet?

[iatneH]

And why is jp including games such as Under Defeat as best looking 2D game IHO...

But I guess it's just my interpretation... Personally I think of 2D graphics as totally hand-drawn like DoDonPachi and Legend of Mana, so that disqualifies real-time rendered graphics such as those seen in Under Defeat, but also (for this specific purpose) pre-rendered stuff like Ketsui and the backdrops of Valkyrie Profile.

Was Yoshi's Island done with any polygonal effects? There was a special chip used...

[jp]

And why is jp including games such as Under Defeat as best looking 2D game IHO...

But I guess it's just my interpretation... Personally I think of 2D graphics as totally hand-drawn like DoDonPachi and Legend of Mana, so that disqualifies real-time rendered graphics such as those seen in Under Defeat, but also (for this specific purpose) pre-rendered stuff like Ketsui and the backdrops of Valkyrie Profile.

Was Yoshi's Island done with any polygonal effects? There was a special chip used...

Uh... you might want to reread the post where I posted that "list".

[iatneH]

Right-o. Wonder how I missed that the first time

[sethsez]

Was Yoshi's Island done with any polygonal effects? There was a special chip used...

Quite a few, actually. Some were obvious, most were not.