Immigration: That thing hiding behind the gay marriage bill

[Neon]

It's a bit difficult to learn english without any resources available to do so, you can't really get a library card if you're here illegally and working long hours for below minimum wage puts serious constraints in place.

[Randorama]

I know that compared to many other languages (Spanish included), English is HARD to learn. .

The other way around, thanks. Without abusing my knowledge of the field, Romance languages and English (which has a mixed status, so to speak) are actually easy to learn. Slavonic languages, if we want to remain in the Indoeuropean family, are already consistently more difficult, in terms of complexity of rules and quantity of things to be memorized. Beside that, it would be no less than impressionistic to go further than that, in such a discourse.

Learning a language (without slapping people around with issues of Language acquisition and learnability, Universal Grammar, etc etc etc) requires time and resources and, as Neon points out properly, lacking money and support, it may not be a cakewalk. Let's add that what you learn without a proper training is the local dialect, not the official standard (yes, the US has dialects like the rest of human languages).

[BulletMagnet]

It's a bit difficult to learn english without any resources available to do so, you can't really get a library card if you're here illegally and working long hours for below minimum wage puts serious constraints in place.

I guess it kinda depends on where you are, but your point's made. In any event, in keeping with what I said earlier, obviously I'm in favor of making learning English more accessible to those who want to do so.

As for you, my dear Rando, it figures you have to bust in here and make a nuisance of yourself. I obviously don't know as much about language "as a whole" as you do, so I guess I ought to narrow down my previous statement to "English is more difficult to learn than Spanish." THAT one, methinks, I can stand by, having had at least some experience with each. Although, as you say, dialects are a factor, not to mention, of course, that it depends on which language you speak already, and how similar to it the one you want to learn is.

[Michaelm]

It's a bit difficult to learn english without any resources available to do so, you can't really get a library card if you're here illegally and working long hours for below minimum wage puts serious constraints in place.

That is why was said that the companies should stop exploiting poor workers.
If they would do it legally they could set up a class for their workers to learn some english or some profession.

The companies are the laughing ones cause they collect all the gains and leave the negatives for the people and the state to deal with.

[Randorama]

THAT one, methinks, I can stand by, having had at least some experience with each. Although, as you say, dialects are a factor, not to mention, of course, that it depends on which language you speak already, and how similar to it the one you want to learn is.

I already see why you're making that mistake. Regardless of the language you pick up, the morphosyntax is a matter of fixing a parameter instead of another, the semantics never really changes and the morpholophonology can be the only complex thing if someone doesn't take you and teach how to MECHANICALLY produce a given phoneme.
If you want to argue that a language is more or less difficult because of lexical polysemy, and amount of things to learn by heart, know that the more processing cost a word implies, the EASIER that word is disambiguated when producing it in speech. At any case, you can get Hawkins, R.(2001). "Second Language Syntax" (Blackwell publishing), if you want a good grasp on how the acquisition of a second language works. Stuff about processing and all...i can put them up on request, right now i lack the refences.

In a nutshell: behave or i'll brandish my academic club (TM).

[VNAF Ace]

PaCrappa... Spare me your crap about hate and xenophobia. That has nothing to do with this debate and it certainly has nothing to do with my opinion. This is about is enforcing the law and protecting our borders.

Look at it this way. How would you feel if random people went into your house or apartment without your permission? That's trespassing, plain and simple.

And as for printing guest worker applications in English only... You're going to be working and living in the US. It's common sense to learn the official language of whatever country you'll be working and living in. If you wanna live and work in France, then you better learn French. If you wanna live and work in Germany, then you better learn German. If you wanna live and work in Italy, then you better learn Italian? Get it?

[magnum opus]

Look at it this way. How would you feel if random people went into your house or apartment without your permission? That's trespassing, plain and simple.

they aren't trespassing in my house, they're trespassing in my backyard (well actuall its new mexico so its my backdirt), and I sure as hell wouldn't advocate shooting them in the head for that.

[The n00b]

Look at it this way. How would you feel if random people went into your house or apartment without your permission? That's trespassing, plain and simple

So from your example, I guess you play the role of my freeloading cousin or spoiled brat of a son. So if these random people went into my house ,with their great work ethic and pursuit of the American Dream, I'd invite them in and boot your ass out.

Seriously, what did you do to become an American citizen? Absolutely nothing. Your daddy or some relative ran away from a war torn country, survived a brutal war, and relied on some compassionate Americans and his own hardwork to earn his citizenship. He's probably a pretty cool guy. Too bad he had the bad luck to raise the Paris Hilton of the shmups forum.

This is why I favor raising the limits on immigration to America. It keeps the country from devolving into a bunch of spoiled brats who's first word out of the womb is "gimme."

[VNAF Ace]

Now you're seriously missing the point. My parents respected the laws of America and filed applications for their green cards. If you want to live and work in America, then you can start by respecting our immigration laws. Is that too much to ask for!?

And FYI, I've worked my ass off to earn my way into college, and I'm currently working my ass off to try to get into med school so don't you dare call me a moocher.

[Eps]

If you wanna live and work in France, then you better learn French. If you wanna live and work in Germany, then you better learn German. If you wanna live and work in Italy, then you better learn Italian? Get it?

Just have to interject to confirm that this is factually correct, as I can see disputes arising over how true this is. In general here in Europe, you have to learn the (usually official) primary language of a country if you want to work there. It's a common-sense principle that is accepted across the continent.

[sikraiken]

It keeps the country from devolving into a bunch of spoiled brats who's first word out of the womb is "gimme."

That's what America is all about already anyway, so it can't "devolve" into it.

[Specineff]

Now you're seriously missing the point. My parents respected the laws of America and filed applications for their green cards. If you want to live and work in America, then you can start by respecting our immigration laws. Is that too much to ask for!?

And FYI, I've worked my ass off to earn my way into college, and I'm currently working my ass off to try to get into med school so don't you dare call me a moocher.

Uhm. But how long did it take for your parents to get their papers? Seriously, it's hard to survive for 7+ years that it takes to get your application approved. (I have been here since 1999, and just this year will I get my permanent papers, and that's because my mom became a citizen this year.)

What can a person do meanwhile? Survive on the satisfaction of doing things the legal way?

About the language, I have no problem. I am thankful to God that I was able to learn english all by myself by reading game manuals and magazines. (Knowledge is power). So if I could do it, who says others can't?

[Randorama]

Just have to interject to confirm that this is factually correct, as I can see disputes arising over how true this is. In general here in Europe, you have to learn the (usually official) primary language of a country if you want to work there. It's a common-sense principle that is accepted across the continent.

Not exactly. I don't speak a single word of dutch, as everyone (from the grocery-man "up") speaks English. Same discourse can be done for Scandinavian countries.
Older generations (here, but also in a lot of places) usually speak german or French, and Eastern Europe is getting full of people knowing English, while older generations knew, usually, German. More than anything, with English and German and, to a lesser extent French, you can go anywhere in Europe, and even afford to live in a place relatively small.
The job discourse is a bit more complicated: if you're a member of a big company, you may even afford not to know the local language, other situations are very context-based.


Except for Italy. I mean, good luck with those, they can't even speak theyir own language, let alone others

[Eps]

Edit: Actually, I'll stop here so that this thread about US immigration doesn't evolve into a thread about the various different languages in use by EU citizens within the EU

[BulletMagnet]

In a nutshell: behave or i'll brandish my academic club (TM).

*tries to shoo away tweeting birds and stars circling head*

Too late.

[PaCrappa]

I haven't looked at this thread since my last post and will not be reading any posts I have missed. I have no need to apologize for any rudeness on my part as I feel it was much deserved. But I really hate hate HATE getting all fired up like I was.

Just wanted to let y'all know. For some reason.

Pa