Salvaging Mobile Shmups

Technicolor · Post by **Technicolor** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:59 pm

I don’t think I’m the person most equipped to open up this conversation, but I do think that someone should. I’ll be breaking this up into multiple posts to make things a bit more digestible.

Combing through some of the older threads, there’s an understandable resentment towards mobile gaming— and more specifically, a derision towards mobile shmups. While some threads get some interesting conversations going, the bulk of the conversation centers around bad ports and a complete dismissal of the concept.

Some barriers get mentioned that do seem genuinely insurmountable. Android’s input lag was genuinely something I was unaware of as an iOS user. A few people cited a learning curve shifting from button controls to touchscreen that they saw no point in overcoming, and there’s the fact that most people here barely seem to play on mobile in any capacity; I saw the term “toilet shmup” tossed around more than once. And of course, mobile monetization is just not great, though I can see that issue fading away with regards to the smaller developers that seem to understand shmups best anyway.

I think the main issue poisoning the well is that most of the mobile shmups available are just bad. Like, not bad just generally, but specifically terrible by mobile standards.

I’m a person who plays on iPad a fair bit due to some personal issues regarding my PC situation. My first 1cc was a no-bomb clear of iOS Truxton’s normal mode. That in of itself is a prime example of a shoddy port— the menu UI is disgusting to look at, the game just straight up doesn’t start sometimes and some of the level design suffers when you have a blind spot where your finger is— but I was able to overlook a lot of the negatives simply because they got the drag-based movement right in a way that a lot of mobile shmups simply don’t. (And because I’m often able to overlook negatives much more easily than other people)

That no-bomb aspect, on the other hand, came about from another thing they got horribly wrong. Out of all the messy aspects of that port, the fact that bombing is tied to a button input is a cardinal sin, and it’s one that seems to come up a lot in ports and in a lot of the absolute worst mobile shmups. I will probably never play the mobile CAVE ports for that reason alone, the idea of using a button to switch between shot types is viscerally upsetting to me even if they seem to get everything else right.

A lot of mobile shmups seem to make mistakes that should be pretty easy to avoid. Plenty of people have also pointed out that the game design tends to fall apart in a lot of these ports; however, there’s a tendency to blame this issue on mobile itself rather than the basic fact that different platforms have different needs regarding game design. Just as games made for keyboard and mouse tend to feel wrong on consoles, analog and touch controls don’t mix. Both computer mice and touchscreens are motion control after all!

So if the problem lies with the ports themselves and not the platform they’re being ported to, that brings up the important question: what does a good mobile shmup look like? What could a shmup designed specifically for mobile, made by a talented developer, bring to the table?

Technicolor · Post by **Technicolor** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:00 pm

Before anything else, I want to point out the Bullet Hell Monday series as others already have. Those games do almost everything I’m going to list here and feel absolutely amazing for it. I personally view the BHM formula as the pinnacle of mobile shmups as things currently stand, and think that any developers that want to improve the state of mobile shooting should use it as a jumping-off point for further iteration and innovation.

CONTROLS
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Above all else, the basic movement of the ship is the most important — and above all else, it baffles me how many different permutations of bad shmup movement there are out there! But I’ve laid my complaints about controls here plenty as is, so what do good controls look like?

As already stated, I believe that freeform drag movement is the ideal way to move a ship on a mobile platform. The biggest issue with it is the blind spot where you place your finger, which can be easily solved with good level design that doesn’t bring up that issue.

I specify “freeform” because there are games that still manage to screw this up. Some shmups will give you a maximum movement speed if you try to move too quickly, which just feels awful. Others will lock the ship to a point just above your finger; lifting your finger and tapping elsewhere will make the ship zip to that particular position. Please don’t do that unless you’re playing with some kind of Teleport gimmick— the player should be able to adjust their finger as they like. It simply feels the most natural and allows them to adjust their blindspot as they like.

Bombing is an interesting one that also has a lot of permutations, again most of them being quite bad, though I think there is more room for exploration there. I’d personally go with two-finger tapping— while holding one finger against the screen, tap another one down at the same time to release a bomb. The pointer finger for moving and the ring ringer for bombing feels very natural; this control setup also discourages the player from using their thumb to control the ship, which would be far clumsier.

There’s room for other kinds of bombing inputs here. A two-finger tap and a two-finger double tap could work like partial and regular bombs from Battle Garegga; picture two-tapping to use something like Gain’s bomb, then two-tapping again while it’s active to extend the duration (or just delaying the bomb activation to achieve a similar effect). You could two-finger tap to activate a shield that autobombs on hit, then two-finger tap again to manually activate it for reduced cost. I’ve also given some thought to “dip bombs,” where dragging your finger deep enough into the UI at the screen bottom would activate a separate kind of bomb; I’m not totally sure about the concept, but as your movement remains largely unbroken it’d definitely be far better than button-bombing. You could have the drag area be restricted to a large ring around the player, where tapping/holding outside of it could use some kind of aim-able attack… there are many possibilities.

And of course, one of these input options could also be used to disable your shot if you desire that in the system. A button input might be okay for that, but you could potentially simulate it in other ways— such as allowing the player to aim their shot down and away from enemies.

Technicolor · Post by **Technicolor** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:02 pm

UI ELEMENTS
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This one’s pretty simple— thin bars at the sides of the screen to allow for two-tapping, with a bottom-heavy UI for all the important information. There’s room to play around with putting some information on the sides as well; take the player’s blind spot into consideration, but not overly so.

If you absolutely must have button inputs, I think putting them in the bottom UI is ideal, making them short and wide rectangles— large enough to be pressed quickly and sloppily, but small enough that being at the bottom of the screen won’t lead to accidental double taps.

LEVEL DESIGN
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A lot of people already dislike enemy spawns from the bottom of the screen, but this is especially bad when considering the player’s blind spot. If enemies spawn from below, give the player ample warning and time to adjust their finger; better yet, don’t spawn enemies below at all. Whether the player can disable their shot should be considered as well, since that might favor enemy speedkilling as the major scoring focus.

Reading through Bog Hog’s shmup design document (found here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iM9 ... Jka9w/edit) was really illuminating for me here— what really jumped out at me were his points regarding the Toaplan pattern and the way that zigzagging should be emphasized during the player’s macromovement to create a stronger sense of flow. I might be talking out of my ass here, but I think the mobile equivalent of this is curved, cursive-like sweeping motions. I’ve noticed in BHM that fast circular movements are very effective for dodging aimed bullets at close range and quickly speedkilling, and that such motions feel very satisfying to do.

And of course, it goes without saying that an individual-level structure is ideal for mobile.

CLOSING THOUGHTS
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

There’s probably a lot of other things to cover here, such as whether or not to include an upgrade system— I personally think a shmup should be enjoyable both fully upgraded and downgraded if so, though that’s pretty subjective— but I hope I’ve laid a solid groundwork for discussion regarding what would make this kind of game really shine. There’s a lot of potential here that’s going to waste, and I’d rather the conversation not get muddied by the most visible and obvious failures that mobile shooting has to offer.

Samildanach · Post by **Samildanach** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:32 pm

Excellent suggestions and I suspect many here would agree with you. The way your ship should smoothly follow your finger and the ease of bombing without having to seek out a phantom 'button' would elevate a mobile shmup to something worth a bit of time, rather than throw away rubbish.

I personally find any type of game on my mobile oddly unsatisfactory. In my free gaming time (of which I don't have a lot) I would rather spend it on any other format that a touch screen mobile game, regardless of whether it was a good one or nor. I don't quite understand my particular lack of interest in it, but I can't get beyond it. Just feels a waste of time when I could be doing something better.

Aka to Blue is perhaps the only one I have spent any time with, and to be fair I did enjoy it (as well as it being very well implemented on the phone). Mind you, had I had access to a console version, then I would have dropped the mobile one immediately.

Perhaps that is it. If a game is good enough, then it usually appears in some format elsewhere and therefore I would prefer to wait till I get that. Experiencing that good game in a mobile format spoils what would have been a better experience elsewhere. Even if there is no format other than Android for game, if I start playing it and find I am enjoying the game, I will want to stop and make a mental note to look out for a later Steam or PS4 version to experience it properly.

Anything shite enough to realistically never have any version outside of Android is also obviously a waste of time so gets ignored too.

These two scenarios leave no real middle ground and so perhaps if others feel the same way, then the shmups on our phones are more for casuals who wouldn't otherwise buy and play a shmup on the console or PC (if they even have one).

Sorry for the slightly rambly nature of my post.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:03 pm

I lost the count of how many times someone suggested me to port Sophstar to mobile devices, and I just said no.

When I had a team working in the game after the first prototype was built, that was one of the very first things everyone onboard agreed upon. "No Mobile Ports".

I am one of those people who doesn't play on my phone. Everytime I buy a new phone I'm tempted to download a few games to see what is like, and quickly drop all of them because they are usually boring, have too many damn ads, and I feel having to control something that's most of the time obscured by your finger a real bad idea.

Of course I tried shmups because its my fav genre and I agree with all you've said. They all felt horrible to play. And from my point of view, I just can't see they working properly. Touch screen works great for some games (like Fruit Ninja), but even with the "freeform movement" you talk about, I just don't think there's enough precision on a touch screen to make a proper shmup.

I may be talking shit here... but I feel mobile games work well with people who usually don't play a lot of games in their free time, but they are just looking for something to kill time during a commute or waiting on a line. I am a guy who will sit down and dedicate free time to games. And I feel shmup players are more of this kind, people who will voluntarily spend their time with a videogame, and not just play them while waiting for something else. And I think that's why mobile gaming never hit off with me.

Lander · Post by **Lander** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:17 pm

The general dismissive attitude applies to all of mobile gaming - the platform holders encouraged a race to the bottom, and the resulting sea of trash caused traditional players to justifiably write it off as such. Cause, effect.
There have been attempts to course-correct like Apple Arcade, but I think the damage is done in the near-to-mid term.

To add to Shatterhand's perspective, dealing with the mobile development and submission process - Apple's, in particular - is a fucking nightmare that no sane developer should ever want to engage with.
Signing builds, managing access keys, dealing with a buggy store upload API that likes to break when you're at the tail-end of overtime crunch, and snooty arbiters that possess much less technical knowledge than they'd have you believe...
Absolutely unacceptable from a tech giant with such a high opinion of itself. I want to build a damn game, not thrash around with backend administration to appease the megalomaniacal ghost of Steve Jobs.

There's certainly promise in the 1:1 control scheme mobile shmups brought to the table, but it's not something that could only be done on mobile - touchpad drivers are good enough to support comparable input these days (and present on playstation pads, steam deck), and failing that it all boils down to the same set of inputs afforded by the common or garden PC mouse: Precise relative motion, with some discrete inputs to trigger actions like bombing. Specialized gestures like pinch zoom or multi-finger motion don't have a direct equivalent, but they're already mutually exclusive with single-finger motion, so could be implemented as modifier keys for the same end result if a given game needs more than two analog axes.

So why don't we see more such games? I think partly out of genre habit, and partly because precise relative input methods like touchpad and gyro never took off with the mainstream - Xbox doesn't have any, and Playstation's amount to a novelty or extra buttons in most titles.
That limits you to PC and mobile - i.e. indies since no big publisher cares to touch the genre, let alone try to innovate it - and most of those are still in the throwback phase. Plus, the 1:1 scheme has a clear mechanical advantage over traditional 8-way, which makes balancing difficult.

Technicolor wrote:that brings up the important question: what does a good mobile shmup look like?

Space Invaders Infinity Gene

SavagePencil · Post by **SavagePencil** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:28 pm

Espgaluda II on iOS arguably got me back into shmups. I switched jobs and my commute went from driving a car to riding a bus to and from work. Mobile Esp II was the best shmup on the platform and gave me something to do when I couldn’t be playing its big brother on the 360. Movement felt good, virtual buttons could be worked around, and it was good practice. It is unfortunate that Cave couldn’t maintain it and it’s no longer playable after an OS jump.

Redfox · Post by **Redfox** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:10 am

While I prefer shmups on consoles, I do like some of the mobile shmups that have come out and have no real issue with them (I'm talking about the Cave releases, I still enjoy them on my Ipad, dai ou jou and espgaluda 2 and mushi futari bl were great on there) (My Ipad never updated past IOS 6 btw lol)...

I think finger speed should match ship speed, I hate ship speed being locked to game speed and your ship can't keep up.

Aka to Blue on mobile was, and still is awesome, play it on my lunch break on my iphone at work at least 3 times a week when i'm not playing Dai ou Jou on the phone lol.

Technicolor · Post by **Technicolor** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:53 am

Samildanach wrote:I personally find any type of game on my mobile oddly unsatisfactory. In my free gaming time (of which I don't have a lot) I would rather spend it on any other format that a touch screen mobile game, regardless of whether it was a good one or nor. I don't quite understand my particular lack of interest in it, but I can't get beyond it. Just feels a waste of time when I could be doing something better.

No worries about the rambling! I think this feeling is pretty typical. Most people play mobile games on their phones, and such a small screen is ill-suited for any truly engrossing gaming experiences.

There’s probably an element of conditioning there too, since most mobile games are meant to be simple timewasters. The intention is often for the player to only ever play for a few minutes per play session, with the strategy being to try and maximize the number of play sessions rather than increasing the individual length— that’s why daily login bonuses are so prevalent, and why the “energy bar” gained any traction at all despite it being a maligned mechanic. When placed in that environment, and with the alternatives to gaming being scrolling through social media and other transitory experiences, it makes sense for even mobile games with longevity to inspire a feeling of wasted time. It’s become the default expectation for any time spent on one’s mobile device.

Shatterhand wrote: I may be talking shit here... but I feel mobile games work well with people who usually don't play a lot of games in their free time, but they are just looking for something to kill time during a commute or waiting on a line.

(Here I mention a Teleport mechanic, and here comes a dev from a game that uses one with eight-way movement… I’ll have to pay attention to Sophstar!)

I think you’re pretty much on the money with regards to the actual demographic, and that lines up with what Samildanach was saying as well. A large part of why I bring this topic up is because the control scheme brings up unique opportunities for gameplay—

Lander wrote: There's certainly promise in the 1:1 control scheme mobile shmups brought to the table, but it's not something that could only be done on mobile - touchpad drivers are good enough to support comparable input these days (and present on playstation pads, steam deck), and failing that it all boils down to the same set of inputs afforded by the common or garden PC mouse: Precise relative motion, with some discrete inputs to trigger actions like bombing.

…You know, I actually completely forgot about keyboard and mouse as a possibility! Probably because I tend to see a similarly dismissive attitude towards mouse shmups on this site, though I suppose I’d have to scan the threads some for that. Do you think that a quality mouse shmup would be more readily accepted?

I also was not aware that the submission process was so troublesome. That’s a huge shame, really, so keyboard and mouse probably is a much better alternative for this kind of concept.

Lander wrote:Plus, the 1:1 scheme has a clear mechanical advantage over traditional 8-way, which makes balancing difficult.

You’re exactly right, but that advantage is exactly what makes it so interesting to me conceptually. For better or worse, it’s a complete game changer for shmups that would require dramatically different game design in order to do well— other mechanical advantages like bullet reflection and polarity switching can’t compare to changing the very way that you move your ship. I think that doing it well, doing it right, could lead to the creation of a new subgenre in of itself.

With that said, I wonder if starting with danmaku games wouldn’t make that sort of design a little easier to start exploring? Maybe something Touhou-ish where the pattern design tends to discourage quick movements. It provides less of an opportunity to let the control scheme to really spread its wings, but using that as a jumping-off point for more experimental design might be a promising route for a skilled developer to trailblaze this style of shmup.

Redfox wrote: Aka to Blue on mobile was, and still is awesome, play it on my lunch break on my iphone at work at least 3 times a week when i'm not playing Dai ou Jou on the phone lol.

I’ve seen this game mentioned a few times now. Seems I might have to give it a try!

Lander · Post by **Lander** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:40 pm

Technicolor wrote: …You know, I actually completely forgot about keyboard and mouse as a possibility! Probably because I tend to see a similarly dismissive attitude towards mouse shmups on this site, though I suppose I’d have to scan the threads some for that. Do you think that a quality mouse shmup would be more readily accepted?

I also was not aware that the submission process was so troublesome. That’s a huge shame, really, so keyboard and mouse probably is a much better alternative for this kind of concept.

Somewhat - mouse has a better chance at acceptance on account of sidestepping the mobile game stigma, but is still relatively niche compared to the gamepad / console install base.
I think it'd take a breakout cross-platform indie darling or PC/PS/Switch ports of respected mobile releases (ex. Cave) to get the necessary attention, but the latter seems quite unlikely when notable port studios like M2 aren't interested in the platform.

Technicolor wrote:You’re exactly right, but that advantage is exactly what makes it so interesting to me conceptually. For better or worse, it’s a complete game changer for shmups that would require dramatically different game design in order to do well— other mechanical advantages like bullet reflection and polarity switching can’t compare to changing the very way that you move your ship. I think that doing it well, doing it right, could lead to the creation of a new subgenre in of itself.

With that said, I wonder if starting with danmaku games wouldn’t make that sort of design a little easier to start exploring? Maybe something Touhou-ish where the pattern design tends to discourage quick movements. It provides less of an opportunity to let the control scheme to really spread its wings, but using that as a jumping-off point for more experimental design might be a promising route for a skilled developer to trailblaze this style of shmup.

Oh for sure - a thinner barrier between player and avatar is a good thing, since it lowers the skill floor while also raising the ceiling.
I'm more getting at the advantage as one reason we don't see more games with such an input system, since you can't retrofit it onto an 8-way shmup without breaking the existing balance. It'd need to be its own mode with separate leaderboards, which is extra work most developers probably wouldn't consider worthwhile.

As for subgenre, I don't think that's as important, since you can balance any kind of shmup down to more approachable levels.
Danmaku tends to scare new players due to the sheer bullet count despite the focus on lower speed, so it's a kind of push-pull situation with perceived difficulty vs actual difficulty.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:25 am

The problem with creating a shmup with a touchscreen is that it’s diametrically opposed to the tradition the genre has demanding somewhat precise movement.

The genre that really benefits from touchscreens is rhythm games. That’s why the best shmups on mobile are a rhythm game first with mechanics meant to offset the lack of precise movement, like NOISZ STARLIVHT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa3WpXgNhrk

pulsemod · Post by **pulsemod** » Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:25 am

very disagree about rhythm games benefiting from touch screens! far less tactile, and even though you'd expect it to open up a ton of possibilities they all end up feeling pretty similar and bland unless the screen is huge. of all the rhythm game shmup combo games (of which there are multiple for some reason), the only ones that seem to succeed doing anything interesting are ones that blend it with shmup gameplay instead of tack it on with touch control

Technicolor wrote:Most people play mobile games on their phones, and such a small screen is ill-suited for any truly engrossing gaming

most of your arguments have been great, but I'm not sure about this! I've had plenty of engrossing experiences on screens as small as the game boy's, for some games the small size might even be an advantage. mobile gaming feels less engrossing for other reasons, I think

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:22 am

pulsemod wrote:very disagree about rhythm games benefiting from touch screens! far less tactile, and even though you'd expect it to open up a ton of possibilities they all end up feeling pretty similar and bland unless the screen is huge.

These limitations haven’t stopped players from nailing perfect scores on them; I’m still trying to figure out how to nail the timings down like they do lol. Like someone seriously got a perfect score on that previous example I mentioned using just a smartphone, which by your definition would be impossible to do because it’s not a “big screen”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXViAZFaYd4

And there is serious diminishing returns for these kinds of games based on screen size because the devs are aware the majority of players will be using their smartphone and target the mechanics based on those aspect ratios; I’ve learned this the hard way by playing some of these games on my hueg 12 inch iPad Pro and not being able to reach certain targets because the playing field was too wide/tall and my arms were crazy tired after moving them so much to compensate for the bigger screen estate; this is probably the reason the person playing this song on the tablet didn’t get that good of a score compared to smartphone player.

It’s just like with dedicated shmup fans- they’ll find a way to get the optimum experience from their session even if they have to construct their own doodad to do it.

And the most beautiful thing about rhythm games on mobile is that the more successful ones end up transcending that platform to ones that have those dedicated tactile controls craved by those who demand them (and this is the metric I use most of the time to determine whether or not a mobile rhythm game is worth a download), which is a phenomenon that would’ve never happened had developers not have had access to this platform in the first place. I’m pretty sure NOISZ STARLIVHT is probably not going to fare well on this type of transition considering how well thought the shmup design was specific to the touchscreen though.

pulsemod · Post by **pulsemod** » Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:25 pm

I didn't mean it from a playability sense, just from a fun sense. larger touch screens in the sense of arcade sized screens opening up way more potential for motion design in the charts, similar to how larger scale fixed-button rhythm games have tons of potential for that. if getting perfect scores is all that matters to someone, there's no need to be picky about how the game plays I guess

Lander · Post by **Lander** » Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:29 pm

dai jou bu wrote:The problem with creating a shmup with a touchscreen is that it’s diametrically opposed to the tradition the genre has demanding somewhat precise movement.

I don't know that it's all down to precision. Certainly for button inputs, since a capacitive screen has to map finger surface area to a single point, but relative drag movement is quite accurate once contact has been made.
If anything I'd put it down to tactility, since a pad or arcade stick has a physical response to tell you your input went through, whereas touch relies purely on visual feedback. In theory the analog nature of touch should allow for more accuracy, but doesn't physically feel that way since it's just a piece of glass.

Voxbox · Post by **Voxbox** » Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:51 pm

I learned to 1CC the arcade version of R-Type by playing the mobile port while slacking off at work. Fantastic game, fantastic port. A stage select feature was all that's needed to make it casual and addicting. No need to reinvent the wheel here.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:40 pm

Lander wrote:
dai jou bu wrote:The problem with creating a shmup with a touchscreen is that it’s diametrically opposed to the tradition the genre has demanding somewhat precise movement.
I don't know that it's all down to precision. Certainly for button inputs, since a capacitive screen has to map finger surface area to a single point, but relative drag movement is quite accurate once contact has been made.
If anything I'd put it down to tactility, since a pad or arcade stick has a physical response to tell you your input went through, whereas touch relies purely on visual feedback. In theory the analog nature of touch should allow for more accuracy, but doesn't physically feel that way since it's just a piece of glass.

I’d say it’s all three: audio, visual, and tactile feedback. if you look at videos of high level mobile rhythm game players where they play the game without using headphones, you’ll notice they’re not blasting the speaker volume at max and strike the screen in a way that creates a distinct “tapping” sound so they can determine if the mistake was coming from them or from the game’s programming (which the game gives visual feedback on, even though they’re millisecond responses). The method of striking the screen in that way also gives them tactile feedback without having dedicated buttons designed to have their own distinct personality of tactile feedback that’s found in more traditional games.

Example:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8-px25dmrLU

as I mentioned before- the dedicated fans will figure out a way to make it work. Just need to think different.

More traditional inputs have an extra step of latency to process, which is why they have that test where you press a button and a small light bulb turns on to determine if the action on the screen is happening the way it should; arcade sticks actually have more latency in directional movement because you have to move a lever to activate a switch, something I had to get used to again when I went back to using them after a long hiatus.

To Far Away Times · Post by **To Far Away Times** » Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:07 am

The concept of a mobile phone shmup is inherently a turd. Some turds have more fiber, some have less, but ultimately, you can't polish a turd.

cfx · Post by **cfx** » Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:41 am

Technicolor · Post by **Technicolor** » Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:53 pm

Lander wrote:Oh for sure - a thinner barrier between player and avatar is a good thing, since it lowers the skill floor while also raising the ceiling.
I'm more getting at the advantage as one reason we don't see more games with such an input system, since you can't retrofit it onto an 8-way shmup without breaking the existing balance. It'd need to be its own mode with separate leaderboards, which is extra work most developers probably wouldn't consider worthwhile.

You’re definitely correct there, the control schemes are very different and downright incompatible in some ways. If you were focused on designing a quality shmup using mouse controls— taking advantage of its unique opportunities and accounting for its unique needs— I think 8-way movement shouldn’t even be a consideration so as to hone in completely on that, though obviously that’s a far cry from the arcade ideal most prefer in the genre.

Lander wrote: As for subgenre, I don't think that's as important, since you can balance any kind of shmup down to more approachable levels.
Danmaku tends to scare new players due to the sheer bullet count despite the focus on lower speed, so it's a kind of push-pull situation with perceived difficulty vs actual difficulty.

I should clarify: I didn’t mean approachability from a player side, I meant approachability from a developer side. A typical danmaku style would put most of the emphasis on the increased precision a mouse brings to the table while micrododging. That isn’t that special, so while it’d be easier to make a good game, it’d be harder to make a game that really justifies the mouse control.

Macrododging is where I think motion controls start to get really interesting. 1:1 movement allows you to move from one screen edge to the other in a matter of frames. The possibilities that that opens up are incredibly fascinating to think about; combine that with the ability to fluidly shift between micrododging and macrododging and anywhere in between across an incredibly granular spectrum of speed, and the potential is obvious.

Designing stages that put that incredible freedom to full use sounds like a daunting task, but one that could lead to something truly great. It’s definitely a tough sell with the low player interest, but I wonder if the situation might end up being comparable to twin-stick control in retrospect, where console players were greatly turned off by the concept at first. Not that we’d ever see a wholesale replacement of digital control with how different the design spaces are.

pulsemod wrote:Most of your arguments have been great, but I'm not sure about this! I've had plenty of engrossing experiences on screens as small as the game boy's, for some games the small size might even be an advantage. mobile gaming feels less engrossing for other reasons, I think

…You know what, fair enough! You just brought back old memories of playing on my GBA in my room as a kid, just being enamored with the Kirby games and Pokémon Ruby. There are definitely other factors that bring mobile games down, but I suspect people like you and I might also be outliers on the tolerance for smaller screens.

dai jou bu wrote:
Lander wrote:
dai jou bu wrote:The problem with creating a shmup with a touchscreen is that it’s diametrically opposed to the tradition the genre has demanding somewhat precise movement.
I don't know that it's all down to precision. Certainly for button inputs, since a capacitive screen has to map finger surface area to a single point, but relative drag movement is quite accurate once contact has been made.
If anything I'd put it down to tactility, since a pad or arcade stick has a physical response to tell you your input went through, whereas touch relies purely on visual feedback. In theory the analog nature of touch should allow for more accuracy, but doesn't physically feel that way since it's just a piece of glass.
I’d say it’s all three: audio, visual, and tactile feedback. if you look at videos of high level mobile rhythm game players where they play the game without using headphones, you’ll notice they’re not blasting the speaker volume at max and strike the screen in a way that creates a distinct “tapping” sound so they can determine if the mistake was coming from them or from the game’s programming (which the game gives visual feedback on, even though they’re millisecond responses). The method of striking the screen in that way also gives them tactile feedback without having dedicated buttons designed to have their own distinct personality of tactile feedback that’s found in more traditional games.

Example:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8-px25dmrLU

as I mentioned before- the dedicated fans will figure out a way to make it work. Just need to think different.

More traditional inputs have an extra step of latency to process, which is why they have that test where you press a button and a small light bulb turns on to determine if the action on the screen is happening the way it should; arcade sticks actually have more latency in directional movement because you have to move a lever to activate a switch, something I had to get used to again when I went back to using them after a long hiatus.

I agree with Lander here, though as an inexperienced player it’s also possible that I wouldn’t notice if there was significant input lag involved. 1:1 drag movement has always felt very responsive to me. The tactile aspect is something I forgot to consider since it’s such a non-factor for my enjoyment, but maybe the fact that I’ve been using iPads for years is the bigger factor there. That’s really what it probably comes down to— getting used to a new style of input and finding clever physical strategies to make the best use of it, like diagonal dodging or like plinking techniques in fighting games.

This conversation has largely convinced me that touch control doesn’t have any real advantages over keyboard and mouse in the realm of shmups. The concept of releasing the same game on both mobile and PC does provide some food for thought... you’d be able to hit two markets at once, and the right design decisions could make the mobile version arguably the more successful of the two; BHM has nearly as many reviews on iOS as it has sales on Steam at a glance. You’d have to design the game around mobile limitations ahead of time, though, or potentially rebalance the mobile version in ways besides touch control if your game has more than maybe one or two buttons. We’re not getting mobile Hellsinker any time soon.

(And as an aside, that video is really cool! I’ve never seen a game take advantage of the mobile control scheme so thoroughly. What you said about tablet vs phone definitely seems to apply though, some of those sections seem like they’d feel much more natural with just your fingers.)

EDIT: Found an interesting post from way back when while looking through the old forum history.

howmuchkeefe wrote:I always thought it would be cool for there to be a mouse based shmup that actually incorporated the movement capabilities of the mouse into its game system, and simulated inertia.

Say, you're piloting a dragonfly or a hummingbird: Sure, you can dart from one edge of the screen to the other, but the game won't let you fire unless you're moving within certain velocity parameters; faster than that, and your firing becomes unfocused; faster still, and you can't fire at all. The faster you move, the longer it takes for your character to regain their balance, and be able to fire again. If a developer wanted to be strict, it might even be possible to shake your character off of his mount- which would count as dying, of course.

I think I mentioned this idea before here and someone linked to a game that I couldn't get to work, so maybe a game like this has already been made. Even if that's the case, I'd sure like to see more of them.

Starfighter · Post by **Starfighter** » Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:41 pm

cfx wrote:I'd take it further:

The concept of a mobile phone game is inherently a turd.

There are plenty of really good mobile phone games out there, I promise! Easy to miss though, since the state of the mobile market is... cynical to put it mildly.

Technicolor · Post by **Technicolor** » Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:13 am

Well, it also depends on what your definition of a “good” mobile game. I’ve gotten more enjoyment out of Cut the Rope than most people here have, I’d wager.

And of course, there are plenty of indie mobile ports… if you wanna count Slay the Spire as a mobile game

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