My journey in shmups: a discussion on accessibility and hype

[Haddock]

Hey everyone,

As someone who is very new to the genre I am quite confused as to what exactly I am supposed to be playing or doing, besides the obvious answer of "just play whatever you like". I basically have access to all the major shmup consoles except the xbox360 at this point (Switch, PS4, DC, and Saturn) and I think I'm suffering from the choice paradox; there are too many shmups to pick and I cannot seem to stick with one.

I started out with Ikaruga because it was supposed to be the best shmup of all time according to...well I have no f****** idea who, because holy shit what a terrible introduction to the genre it is. I basically liked nothing about it except how it looked, and how expert players played it. Playing it myself made me bored real fast, like solving a very slow elaborate puzzle chain after chain. Then I thought, well RS is out on multiple platforms, let's give that a go. It was...beter than Ikaruga, but still the rigid chaining and having it tied to my weapon power seems like a HORRIBLE design choice (when playing arcade anyway).

So then, what is a newbie to do? Cave? I bought Ketsui for my PS4. Finally, things felt right from the get go. I could just shoot stuff, yet I felt the game design was always guiding me to places I needed to be, for example one bullet pattern during a boss needed me to rotate around the screen a full 360 degrees to avoid getting hit...and somehow I picked up on that instinctively. I had multiple moments like this playing Ketsui. The scoring is simple, but extremely deep. And it somehow feels much more natural compared to RS and Ikaruga, which feel rather forced to me. Moreover the purity of the game design is paradoxically much more newbie friendly. Despite the dnamaku reputation I find it much easier to play Ketsui than Treasure's offerings, which feel rather, dare I say it, unfair at times. For example in RS there are multiple instances where I really couldn't survive simply because I did not know what was coming next, some random enemy from behind, those weird electrical fences you need to shoot to open up left or right (but no clue so you have to guess..). In Ketsui despite dying a lot, it always feels fair. And I pretty much immediately recognize what I can do the next time to improve my situation.

This made me wonder: why exactly are Treasure's shmups in general game publications so hyped? To be honest, they seems rather lackluster in terms of game design. Don't get me wrong, they try so much and are very creative. But in their quest for being so different and unique, they lose a lot of energy. RS tries to be an epic tale (including the typical 90s anime story lol) but the pacing suffers, and shooting only one color for a large part of the game is a very non-intuitive design. Ikaruga at least offers the opportunity to play for survival without score, but ultimately suffers much of the same problems that Rs has, that they feel like puzzle games that happen to be in the form of a shmup. I feel fatigued playing them, with Ketsui I feel ready to jump back in as soon as I die. Before I know it an hour has gone by!

So much for my random thoughts as someone who really only started playing this year. What do you guys think about Treasure's shmups? Why are they so popular seemingly? What shmup(s) would you personally recommend to new players? If Ketsui is a sign of things to come for me I will gladly pick up another Cave game, very addictive. I'm also picking up some Raizing games on the Saturn soon.

I do wonder what can be done to make the genre more accessible tbh. Because I had to work really hard to find a niche within an already niche genre, and I actively pursued the genre myself. I feel like ironically a lot of Cave games are rather easy to get into, as long as the player understands what the goals of a game are (getting a 3cc, or eventually a 1cc, what the different modes mean like maniac, original etc.).

[Lander]

That's quite the trajectory you took coming in - deep end after deep end

Quite a familiar one too - on returning to the genre proper, I started with RS and dropped it after realising how OP the save-load system makes you compared to arcade. Then went to Ikaruga excited for the more engaging chain mechanic, only to be utterly bodied by the pattern memo, and eventually ended up at Cave.
Though I went with Mushihimesama to start with, since I'd heard it was one of their more approachable entries. Novice Original makes for a nice comfy 1CC reminiscent of the also-excellent Crimzon Clover's Novice mode, but Arcade Original is still a real ass-kicker of a challenge after the mid-game difficulty spike.

On Treasure shmups, I think their critical darling status is a mix of signature Treasure quality with right-place-right-time; they were good, polished releases with new spins on shmup gameplay model that were novel enough to catch the attention of non-enthusiast players and remain entertaining even if credit-fed.
The genre was gradually passing out of mainstream favour at the time, which made that eye-catching effect all the more potent.

[Haddock]

Another thing I noticed is that there is naturally a huge divide between what fans of the genre enjoy and what casual/new players may expect/desire/think they desire. If I look at the top 10 shmups of all time list a lot of them are indeed, quite in the deep end shmups. Of course that's why they're rated highly, but that isn't what a new player (I think) needs.

One reason I was drawn in by RS and Ikaruga (especially RS) is their production value (music, story, style). Now I don't mean to sound too negative, but most people will never look twice at Battle Garegga because it's just quite bland. deep and esoteric as it may be, that really only matters if you're already dep into the genre (for most people). Games like Mushihimesama (Futari) definitely help in this regard with their Ghibli-esque visual tendencies.

I suppose it's a bit of a catch-22 though. The general trend in (most of) gaming is to make games more streamlined and as broadly accessible as possible, but this shmup genre is literally based on values that are and have not been the norm in gaming since at least the early 2000's.

[sunnshiner]

Any 'traditional' style shmup would be waaaaay more fun than RSG or Ikaruga. I really like Raiden III and IV and Psikyo's stuff's good fun too.

RSG and Ikaruga are both really spiteful puzzle games, they might look nice but they're not my cup of tea at all even though I've tried to get into them.

Games that I enjoyed when I started to get (back) into shmups-

Raiden III & IV
Dodonpachi DFK
Dodonpachi DOJ
Espgaluda II (easy 1cc in Novice)
Mushi Futari
Ketsui
Gunbird 2
Strikers 1945 (all of them)
Akai Katana Shin
Under Defeat (I bloody love this game)
Zero Gunner 2
Shikigami No Shiro II & III

There are loads more but that's a pretty good list of fun stuff to be going on with I reckon.

[To Far Away Times]

A few thoughts:

I loved Treasure games long before I played shmups. They had a run where they were among the very best game developers on the planet. There is a certain quirkiness that comes out in their titles that has their signature stamp on it. They made some all time classics.

That bring said, I play shmups for their simplicity. I don't want to be bogged down in a bunch of systems and complexity. I don't like RSG because I have to think about three color chaining and leveling six weapons. I like Ikaruga because its just a basic shmup with one small addition, a two color polarity system. I don't have to overthink it. RSG is complexity just for the sake of it. I think Ikaruga is totally worth the hype, its just not the only game in town like some would think.

My favorite shmup is Futari, it looks and sounds great, and has so many difficulties and modes. And I love that you get both a classic style shmup with original mode and a bullet hell with maniac mode. Then you get easier difficulties with black label. There's a little something for everyone with that game. There's four realistic clears to be had between the normal game and Black Label. Quality and Quantity. (God mode and Ultra mode are for the clinically insane )

[guigui]

Seconding the "RSG and Ika are not first entry shmups, Futari has something very good for every one of us".

Also try some Dodonpachi and/or Batsugun is you're curious how the whole bullet hell thing kind of started to get really good.

[Sumez]

Ketsui is one of the most beloved shmups among fans of the genre for good reason. With the things you highlight about the game feeling appealing to you, I think you should like most of Cave's games.

Ikaruga is pretty much famous for being massively overrated among people who don't even like the genre, while I don't know many shmup players who are particularly fond of it, myself included. I do think it's a good game though, it's just very much its own thing.

[Samildanach]

Ikaruga I found painful to play, though I can appreciate its unique design that others may enjoy.

The Cave games are fantastic, though perhaps better to appreciate when you have enjoyed easier games in the genre.

I would suggest something more approachable such:
Thunder Force III or AC - old school horizontal shmup with great visuals, a fantastic soundtrack and fast, adrenaline-fused but approachable gameplay.

Eschatos - Oh my word this is an experience. If you are not smiling while playing this for the first time then your soul is dead.

Soldner X-2 - now I will likely get pillored on this site for this final suggestion as it is a Euro-shmup complete with health bar and long stages. Veterans may forget however, that a good euro-shmup like this one is very very approachable to a newbie. There are numerous challenges that you can unlock and they can be a lot of fun while also honing your skills for the less merciful shmups of Japanese origin. Great soundtrack and visuals and a lot of content. Yeah, maybe start with this one then go to the two above to blow your mind. THEN you can get cracking with whatever you want!

[Lander]

Another thing I noticed is that there is naturally a huge divide between what fans of the genre enjoy and what casual/new players may expect/desire/think they desire. If I look at the top 10 shmups of all time list a lot of them are indeed, quite in the deep end shmups. Of course that's why they're rated highly, but that isn't what a new player (I think) needs.

I suppose you could liken that to any enthusiast domain that requires experience for full appreciation - art, music, film, cars, food, booze, etc. If you ask the old masters what they like, their answers will probably need a good deal of context to understand.

And I'd definitely class the System11 Top 10 as such when we stand in the midst of posters with lists of NOMISSes, 2-ALLs and counterstops that look like this

Spoiler

One reason I was drawn in by RS and Ikaruga (especially RS) is their production value (music, story, style). Now I don't mean to sound too negative, but most people will never look twice at Battle Garegga because it's just quite bland. deep and esoteric as it may be, that really only matters if you're already dep into the genre (for most people). Games like Mushihimesama (Futari) definitely help in this regard with their Ghibli-esque visual tendencies.

There are other games like Eschatos and the upcoming Birdcage that put a lot of weight on presentation, but it's certainly a rare trait in the wake of big mainstream studios writing the genre off as dusty and nonviable.

And stanning for soft-edged weebery over muh hard and manly MILITARY INDUSTRIAL style? Outrageous!

I kid - Mushi 1 is pleasantly artful, though it was the precipice leading to latter-day Cave being anime girls all the way down.
Which leads into my actual point: namely that accessibility and appeal should be differentiated. Cave's later titles brought in more players with new aesthetics, but curbstomped them all the same in the arcade.

They didn't become truly accessible until novice and practice modes were added in the ports, which is the keystone - you need a setting that an average player can use to wean themselves onto the genre proper, and good practice tools that they can pick up of their own accord when the journey calls for it.
RSG and Ika are best-case examples of what happens when a title nails the appeal but omits the accessibility: credit feeds and enduring fond memories for most, but a player journey that ends before takeoff.

I suppose it's a bit of a catch-22 though. The general trend in (most of) gaming is to make games more streamlined and as broadly accessible as possible, but this shmup genre is literally based on values that are and have not been the norm in gaming since at least the early 2000's.

You can make the genre super accessible without capitulating to the mainstream gaming norm; M2 are poster-boys for that, since all their work is stuffed full of QoL features and informational / learning tools, though admittedly they're more focused on the classics.
Indies are probably the answer for balancing that level of genre understanding with slick modern presentation, since it's easier than ever to make something good without needing a mega-budget.

Shmup Junkie's videos are a good place to look for more beginner-friendly content, since he's been around the block enough times to know his stuff, but isn't a superplayer, and is all about spreading the good word to new folk while being mindful of genre sticking-points.

[Shatterhand]

Shmups have been my fav videogame genre for 35+ years, I've played a shtiload of them, beat a fair amount of them and I can tell you without any doubts in my mind.

I hate both Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga. I tried liking both games as I felt I was missing something but, no. I also found them insanely boring and frustrating at the same time.

So it's not just you.

[Steven]

Ikaruga is a well-designed game, but that doesn't mean it's actually fun to play, because it isn't. Don't go anywhere near that thing as a beginner.

Same with CAVE, unless you are playing the ShotTriggers Super Easy modes, because you're just going to get destroyed and hate those games.

Actually, just stay the hell away from most arcade STGs in general as a beginner. Fuck that. You'll just end up frustrated. Play something like Thunder Force or maybe try Eschatos on easy first and then move to more difficult stuff later. If you really want to play arcade STGs, play them on easy, try really easy games like Slap Fight, or if there is a ShotTriggers release, use the Super Easy mode. You might even be able to do Crimzon Clover on Novice, as well, so also try that. My dumb ass never plays bullet hell and even I got a 1-miss clear on that the second time I played it.

Everybody's always like "no, I want to play arcade games as a beginner and I am not willing to consider either playing console shooters or reducing the arcade games' difficulty to easy" and I'm like why ask for easy games and then reject the easy games/easy DIP switch settings that people suggest? Come on now. Everything doesn't need to be Daioujou Death Label. Play console games first to learn how to not game over 15 seconds into a game and then go play Death Label later.

[kid aphex]

I think both RSG and Ikaruga are so good that they transcend the genre… but that separates them from the genre in a way that a lot of players don’t really enjoy. I get it.

As for not being able to recognize why Treasure are so hyped up?
Well, in my humble opinion, Treasure is a genius developer.
But it’s a quirky and subtle genius, and it certainly helps to have know and understand the context and history of the genre to be able to perceive the genius.
Whether you’re talking about gameplay or visuals, their games were always doing a lot of cool and extraordinary things.
Nowadays, it might be difficult to identify those things unless you’re very well-versed in the history of the medium.
You might appreciate them more as you familiarize yourself with the genre… but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll enjoy their games.
I know plenty of old heads who don’t like Treasure.

They’re wrong…but what can you do?

[Haddock]

I think both RSG and Ikaruga are so good that they transcend the genre… but that separates them from the genre in a way that a lot of players don’t really enjoy. I get it.

As for not being able to recognize why Treasure are so hyped up?
Well, in my humble opinion, Treasure is a genius developer.
But it’s a quirky and subtle genius, and it certainly helps to have know and understand the context and history of the genre to be able to perceive the genius.
Whether you’re talking about gameplay or visuals, their games were always doing a lot of cool and extraordinary things.
Nowadays, it might be difficult to identify those things unless you’re very well-versed in the history of the medium.
You might appreciate them more as you familiarize yourself with the genre… but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll enjoy their games.
I know plenty of old heads who don’t like Treasure.

They’re wrong…but what can you do?

You make a lot of assumptions here.

RS and Ikaruga are good because they trump the genre? That's odd. Then, I suppose Ketsui is good because it encompasses (what fans like about) the genre? I'm not sure transcendental is at all a requirement for being "good". Plenty of games combine genre's, and plenty of them are terrible at doing so. Vice versa.

The second assumption you make is that I don't know Treasure, or gaming in general. I do. I own(ed) and played most of Treasure's games except for that 2d fighting game they made. I don't think all of their games are great, or even good. Unique yes, but that is an entirely separate category. Alien soldier and the Sin and Punishment games (especially the first one) are probably my favorite of theirs. I'm not fond of the game mechanics in Dynamite Heady at all for example, and Gunstar Heroes whilst being impressive at the time, doesn't really hold up to other run and gun games imo.

Anyway, to return to the topic at hand; I haven't enjoyed RS yet, and it isn't for a lack of trying. I can chain the first parts relatively well with some secret chains included, and dismantling the first bosses for their full destruction bonus' isn't hard for me as of now. I think it's more so my annoyance with the game's insistence on itself. The slow pace, the game really says "wow look at this boss we thought of, isn't that cool?" Well, sometimes it is. But in the early game there is a part where you have to navigate nation corridors with loads of turrets, and to me this slow pace kills any hype or momentum the game may have had, learning how to chain that part feels like work, and isn't fun to me in the slightest. No amount of beautiful graphics, Final Fantasy inspired music, or story (which tbh isn't that great, it's just that shmups have a low bar) can fix that unfortunately.

I do think Ikaruga is a much tighter game that accomplishes its (game design) goal much better than RS does. So maybe I should give that another chance later when I played more shmups. Right now I'm having so much fun with Ketsui, I basically love everything about it. I saw Daioujou is getting the M2 treatment as well, which looks aesthetically and sonically to be right up my alley! Not a big fan, as another poster noted, of the late Cave anime waifu nonsense though. So it looks like the sweet spot for Cave is their early work up until maybe Mushihimesama? In any case, playing Ketsui and some others (Batsugun, Soukyugurentai!) I am having a lot more fun compared to the Treasure games, what can I say? I don't think those games are simple, but their design philosophies match a lot more with what I consider fun I suppose.

[wiNteR]

Few brief points:
(1) I think that both RS and Ikaruga are pretty good (I still haven't played RS though).

(2) Perspective on various games can often change or adjust with time.

(3) I don't think how accessible a game is to a new player always necessarily matches how good it might be in the long run. It is reasonable to expect some correlation between the two, but I don't think one thing guarantees other.

=============================

Regarding Ikaruga, when I was fairly new to these games I had read criticisms along the lines of "too much memorization" or something along these lines. And I kind of agreed upon those criticisms based upon watching videos. However, when I played it I thought it was quite good. The criticism of memorization does apply to some extent, but it doesn't deter from enjoying the game (at least for me).

I think at least one thing to be wary of when one is new to a game like this (with visible grades etc.) is trying to get everything "perfect" on just one stage. Perhaps some people will enjoy this but most people won't [and especially a newer player]. Probably too many restarts would wear one off if you are new to a game like this (at least I would get tired of it).

I think it is better to have an over-all score in mind and just get overall improvement. Of course beyond a certain level of score this would change, but that point is usually going to be far off from someone new to the game or whose objectives are more limited.

[dai jou bu]

I think both RSG and Ikaruga are so good that they transcend the genre… but that separates them from the genre in a way that a lot of players don’t really enjoy. I get it.

I get it too. The level of ambition that they put into their shmups leaves such a lasting impression that it even catches the normies attention.

Everyone mentions Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun, but not the second Sin and Punishment game, which was basically their swan song to the genre.

Yes, you heard me right, that’s a shmup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT8xWLYy2fQ&t=2128s

It takes a lot of good game design skill (and balls) to be able to figure out a buttery smooth control system that works well for both traditional shmup design as well as on-rails (eg- panzer dragoon, space harrier) so when the perspective dynamically shifts your muscle memory goes “I got this. Nope, I’m dead, but that was awesome.”

Compare that to most of Cave’s lineup, and it’s night and day. Someone always has to point out some scoring mechanic or how you deal with these bullets in order to tell those titles apart, but you don’t need to do that with a Treasure title.

[Some-Mist]

I saw Daioujou is getting the M2 treatment as well, which looks aesthetically and sonically to be right up my alley!

DOJ reminds me a lot of ikaruga/RSG because of how demanding the chaining system/having to analyze and preplan a route to score well.

[Sumez]

Yeah DDP chaining is a pain, but if you don't play for score specifically, DOJ and Ketsui feel very similar. Would be a shame to ignore Ketsui's scoring system though.

[Stevens]

Since I just mentioned it in the ticker thread - Crisis Wing. Old school Toaplan vibes with a medal scoring system, great ost, and a big boy bomb.

[kid aphex]

You make a lot of assumptions here.

RS and Ikaruga are good because they trump the genre? That's odd. Then, I suppose Ketsui is good because it encompasses (what fans like about) the genre? I'm not sure transcendental is at all a requirement for being "good". Plenty of games combine genre's, and plenty of them are terrible at doing so. Vice versa.

I didn’t say “trump,” I said “transcend”
These are two different words with very different meanings.
I also didn’t say anything about “transcendental” which is a word that has to do with spiritualism and metaphysics.
I don’t expect you to agree with me (or even be able to understand what I’m saying) when your lexicon is so fucked up.

The second assumption you make is that I don't know Treasure, or gaming in general. I do. I own(ed) and played most of Treasure's games except for that 2d fighting game they made. I don't think all of their games are great, or even good. Unique yes, but that is an entirely separate category. Alien soldier and the Sin and Punishment games (especially the first one) are probably my favorite of theirs. I'm not fond of the game mechanics in Dynamite Heady at all for example, and Gunstar Heroes whilst being impressive at the time, doesn't really hold up to other run and gun games imo.

Well, to be fair, you’re the one making the thread about how you just started getting into the genre that’s (arguably) the foundation for the entire medium. I don’t think it was unreasonable of me to assume you weren’t familiar with the particulars of one of the most esoteric developers ever.

Anyway, to return to the topic at hand; I haven't enjoyed RS yet, and it isn't for a lack of trying. I can chain the first parts relatively well with some secret chains included, and dismantling the first bosses for their full destruction bonus' isn't hard for me as of now. I think it's more so my annoyance with the game's insistence on itself. The slow pace, the game really says "wow look at this boss we thought of, isn't that cool?" Well, sometimes it is. But in the early game there is a part where you have to navigate nation corridors with loads of turrets, and to me this slow pace kills any hype or momentum the game may have had, learning how to chain that part feels like work, and isn't fun to me in the slightest. No amount of beautiful graphics, Final Fantasy inspired music, or story (which tbh isn't that great, it's just that shmups have a low bar) can fix that unfortunately.

You gotta love that “final fantasy inspired music”.
You should write reviews.
https://www.ign.com/articles/ign-is-hir ... -apply-now

I do think Ikaruga is a much tighter game that accomplishes its (game design) goal much better than RS does. So maybe I should give that another chance later when I played more shmups. Right now I'm having so much fun with Ketsui, I basically love everything about it. I saw Daioujou is getting the M2 treatment as well, which looks aesthetically and sonically to be right up my alley! Not a big fan, as another poster noted, of the late Cave anime waifu nonsense though. So it looks like the sweet spot for Cave is their early work up until maybe Mushihimesama? In any case, playing Ketsui and some others (Batsugun, Soukyugurentai!) I am having a lot more fun compared to the Treasure games, what can I say? I don't think those games are simple, but their design philosophies match a lot more with what I consider fun I suppose.

Awesome.

[kid aphex]

I think both RSG and Ikaruga are so good that they transcend the genre… but that separates them from the genre in a way that a lot of players don’t really enjoy. I get it.

I get it too. The level of ambition that they put into their shmups leaves such a lasting impression that it even catches the normies attention.

Everyone mentions Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun, but not the second Sin and Punishment game, which was basically their swan song to the genre.

Yes, you heard me right, that’s a shmup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT8xWLYy2fQ&t=2128s

It takes a lot of good game design skill (and balls) to be able to figure out a buttery smooth control system that works well for both traditional shmup design as well as on-rails (eg- panzer dragoon, space harrier) so when the perspective dynamically shifts your muscle memory goes “I got this. Nope, I’m dead, but that was awesome.”

Compare that to most of Cave’s lineup, and it’s night and day. Someone always has to point out some scoring mechanic or how you deal with these bullets in order to tell those titles apart, but you don’t need to do that with a Treasure title.

Absolutely. Treasure is next level. And SP2 is totally a shmup.

[Sumez]

Ikaruga is a well-designed game, but that doesn't mean it's actually fun to play, because it isn't. Don't go anywhere near that thing as a beginner.

Same with CAVE, unless you are playing the ShotTriggers Super Easy modes, because you're just going to get destroyed and hate those games.

Eh I really don't like the presumption that if a game's gonna kick your ass, you can't have fun with it, and it's not something I expected to see in this community.
The ShotTriggers Super Easy modes are way too easy IMO. If you don't try to push the scoring, they don't have much purpose - and if you do push the scoring, they stop being easy.

Outside the realm of arcade game enthusiasts there exists this perspective that to enjoy a game you need to be able to see it to the end, and performing well is simply a self imposed challenge you can look into afterwards if you can't get enough of the game.
That's totally fine, but I think most fans of challenging arcade style action games will agree, that even though that 1CC might be the end goal (if not just the stepping stone to competitive high scoring run), an essential part of the enjoyment comes from gradually performing a little bit better and better the more you keep playing the game. The more you need to fight for that extra bit of progress, the sweeter it feels to reach a new point in it, and if you eventually do take the last boss down, nothing can beat that feeling. I wouldn't want to keep that from the newbies.

[Haddock]

You make a lot of assumptions here.

RS and Ikaruga are good because they trump the genre? That's odd. Then, I suppose Ketsui is good because it encompasses (what fans like about) the genre? I'm not sure transcendental is at all a requirement for being "good". Plenty of games combine genre's, and plenty of them are terrible at doing so. Vice versa.

I didn’t say “trump,” I said “transcend”
These are two different words with very different meanings.
I also didn’t say anything about “transcendental” which is a word that has to do with spiritualism and metaphysics.
I don’t expect you to agree with me (or even be able to understand what I’m saying) when your lexicon is so fucked up.

The second assumption you make is that I don't know Treasure, or gaming in general. I do. I own(ed) and played most of Treasure's games except for that 2d fighting game they made. I don't think all of their games are great, or even good. Unique yes, but that is an entirely separate category. Alien soldier and the Sin and Punishment games (especially the first one) are probably my favorite of theirs. I'm not fond of the game mechanics in Dynamite Heady at all for example, and Gunstar Heroes whilst being impressive at the time, doesn't really hold up to other run and gun games imo.

Well, to be fair, you’re the one making the thread about how you just started getting into the genre that’s (arguably) the foundation for the entire medium. I don’t think it was unreasonable of me to assume you weren’t familiar with the particulars of one of the most esoteric developers ever.

Anyway, to return to the topic at hand; I haven't enjoyed RS yet, and it isn't for a lack of trying. I can chain the first parts relatively well with some secret chains included, and dismantling the first bosses for their full destruction bonus' isn't hard for me as of now. I think it's more so my annoyance with the game's insistence on itself. The slow pace, the game really says "wow look at this boss we thought of, isn't that cool?" Well, sometimes it is. But in the early game there is a part where you have to navigate nation corridors with loads of turrets, and to me this slow pace kills any hype or momentum the game may have had, learning how to chain that part feels like work, and isn't fun to me in the slightest. No amount of beautiful graphics, Final Fantasy inspired music, or story (which tbh isn't that great, it's just that shmups have a low bar) can fix that unfortunately.

You gotta love that “final fantasy inspired music”.
You should write reviews.
https://www.ign.com/articles/ign-is-hir ... -apply-now

I do think Ikaruga is a much tighter game that accomplishes its (game design) goal much better than RS does. So maybe I should give that another chance later when I played more shmups. Right now I'm having so much fun with Ketsui, I basically love everything about it. I saw Daioujou is getting the M2 treatment as well, which looks aesthetically and sonically to be right up my alley! Not a big fan, as another poster noted, of the late Cave anime waifu nonsense though. So it looks like the sweet spot for Cave is their early work up until maybe Mushihimesama? In any case, playing Ketsui and some others (Batsugun, Soukyugurentai!) I am having a lot more fun compared to the Treasure games, what can I say? I don't think those games are simple, but their design philosophies match a lot more with what I consider fun I suppose.

Awesome.

Alright, instead of actually engaging with any argument you start throwing around ad hominems and snarky comments. That’s a shame, but then again it’s a public forum so I don’t know what I expected.

FYI English is not everyone’s native language, but I’m sure you know that. I’m sure you also know exactly what I was getting at but decided to be a dick. That’s cool. Merry Christmas.

For everyone else that commented, thanks for your insights and tips on games to try! Appreciated.

[velo]

If you missed this thread about beginner shmups, it's worth a look: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70796

"just play whatever you like" is worth keeping in mind... follow what your gut tells you about anime girls/military/spaceships/whatever

[To Far Away Times]

One thing that I look for is games that I've been able to convince my non shmup playing friends to play.

I played a bunch of Darius Burst Another Chronicle A-D-H (or whatever the top route is) at Round 1 with a few friends. That's one of those games where you see the arcade cab and you just have to check it out. It's such an impressive game, and it scales from very easy to plenty difficult depending on how far you want to take it. It's one of the better multiplayer shmups to boot.

I got a non shmup playing buddy to take a chance on Deathsmiles, and he liked it so much he 1CC'd it. Then he bought DoDonPachi Resurrection (twice), because cave was the new hotness.

[Haddock]

So as I’ve been playing RS casually (story mode and saving weapon levels) it’s becoming clear that a mistake I’ve made is I’ve been trying to play the game on my pacing instead of the pace the game demands of me. You really need to be very patient and micrododge a lot of stuff instead of flying around so much (the ship is a slow boy).

Also it seems like the full boss destruction bonus is by far the most important thing to get because it levels up all weapons it seems. Right now my goal is to 1cc arcade mode eventually, but I don’t think I’ll have the patience to learn to chain every stage.

[Some-Mist]

honestly, yeah.. I'm of the ilk that you find a few games you like to play and sticking with it will get you accustomed to the genre. ketsui seems to be the case for tc (Haddock) which based on the original post seems like the game worth sinking time into. the easy modes never really cut it for me but mushihimesama novice ultra was actually pretty fun even though it takes a bit to ramp up. for me it was progear which ended up being one of my first handful of 1CCs.

maybe a weird side comment, but learning how the mechanics/scoring systems actually work can contribute to the fun in the different modes within the same game. sometimes the systems go hand in hand w/ survival, and a lot of times the arrange modes might be easier than the normal modes of the game (e.g. batsugun vs looping batsugun special or pink sweets vs pink sweets arrange). Playing through an arrange mode and learning how it works then going back to the vanilla version can give you the "oh wow" feeling when it finally clicks. there are definitely outliers like mushihimesama original vs mushihimesama HD arrange (ps2 arrange is a bit more lenient than the HD version) where the arrange mode sits somewhere between original and maniac mode leaning more towards maniac difficulty

[guigui]

Also it seems like the full boss destruction bonus is by far the most important thing to get because it levels up all weapons it seems. Right now my goal is to 1cc arcade mode eventually, but I don’t think I’ll have the patience to learn to chain every stage.

I fear you do not have the correct strategy there. Boss full destruction bonus points is indeed good, but very low compared to chaining. From my experience the game forces you to chain -- I'd say about 70% of the game -- in order to get weapons at a high enough level to survive later boss fights.
This is considering you play Arcade mode where weapon levels reset each run.

[Kiken]

Also it seems like the full boss destruction bonus is by far the most important thing to get because it levels up all weapons it seems. Right now my goal is to 1cc arcade mode eventually, but I don’t think I’ll have the patience to learn to chain every stage.

I fear you do not have the correct strategy there. Boss full destruction bonus points is indeed good, but very low compared to chaining. From my experience the game forces you to chain -- I'd say about 70% of the game -- in order to get weapons at a high enough level to survive later boss fights.
This is considering you play Arcade mode where weapon levels reset each run.

For an Arcade Mode 1CC learning to chain the first level (Stage 3 due to the game's odd level ordering) and the first sector of Stage 4 (up until the first boss) should put your A and C weapons around level 20. This is strong enough to ride out the rest of the game without having to focus on chaining.

[Haddock]

Right now I can at least get the first extend (1 mil) right before the 2nd boss. Making progress..

I do wonder if Treasure couldn't decide if this was a console game or an arcade game, despite it being both of course it almost feels as if story mode is what they envisioned, an epic shmup tale. But honestly, I get fatiqued just fighting boss after boss. Story mode seems insanely long O.O

[Kiken]

I do wonder if Treasure couldn't decide if this was a console game or an arcade game, despite it being both of course it almost feels as if story mode is what they envisioned, an epic shmup tale. But honestly, I get fatiqued just fighting boss after boss. Story mode seems insanely long O.O

More than likely they had unfinished content that got shelved in order to release the STV cart within a specific time frame. Once they decided to make a home release they more than likely chose to complete the edited material to make a fairly robust arrange mode.