Akai Katana Shin PS4 switch

[BIL]

Got this on Steam, I've never played AK before so I don't know how it compares to other ports, but it's a fun game. The game dev is commenting in the discussion board on Steam and answering a few questions about future PC ports. Basically it sounds like anything another company has already done on PS3, Garegga for example, is likely a no-go. But it sounds like they have other things planned

*PS4

The idea of CC porting Garegga with the board's innate 5f lag makes me want to dig a large-calibre firearm into the rear-roof of my mouth before putting one through my brainstem. They should focus on boards without noticeable lag, given they seem to inevitably make a mess of things, unlike M2 or Hamster.

[Steven]

A 300% increase in lag over the PCB on Switch, then. Disappointing, but not unexpected from City Connection. Is it sad to say that it's still better performance than their Cotton?

This is something of a rhetorical question, but at what point is a (re)release considered to be bad due to input lag? Ideally everything ever made would have the action take place on the frame immediately after the input, but that is probably not feasible in most cases, especially on modern consoles with their wireless controllers and relatively slow USB. I will probably not notice 6 frames, even if I do a side-by-side with my Switch next to my PC since I have that much difficulty detecting lag, but it is still disappointing.

[BIL]

Capcom Arcade Stadium (PS4) is my current borderline. I can notice the lag, but technically, if I were compelled, I could adjust to it. As it is, I'm happier sorting out PCBs (or playing older releases, eg the PS1's superb Capcom Generation series). Not like my plate isn't piled to the roof currently, between M2 and Hamster, not even counting past gens.

City Connection's current paradigm seems to be "if the board was low-lag, the port will be acceptable." Their PS4 Dragon Blaze and Strikers 1999 feel ok to me. Those games' boards, I can't notice any lag at all. Garegga, I sold my board (full kit 3;) in a fit of annoyance after realising my Saturn disc was so much sharper, despite it having its own shortcomings (the loadtimes between stages, while short, can jar; particularly st2 into the st3 medal rails).

So yeah, my 2c is CC should focus on stuff that can withstand their apparent incompetency. S-Tribute Cotton 2/Boomerang/Guardian Force? Those discs (and STV carts, these being True Ports™) have noticeable (though entirely acceptable imo) lag - not a great idea. Something like VING's razor-sharp Rayforce and EAR? More promising. Sounds like Deathsmiles and AK are on the right side of this equation, more or less.

[Steven]

It's really sad that City Connection releases only a few games every year and then here is Hamster putting out a new ACA release literally every week while still outperforming City Connection in terms of quality. I guess you really can have both quantity and quality at a budget level; even if, as an individual, one finds the actual games that Hamster is releasing on ACA to not be appealing enough to buy, the quality of the emulation is quite good overall, even if they are pretty barren in terms of features like the assortment of things that M2 includes.

Meanwhile, City Connection seems to do the bare minimum to get the games working and nothing more, the only new thing they add is lag, and even their cheapest releases are more expensive than Hamster's ACA games as far as I have seen. I don't know about these guys.

[hamfighterx]

So yeah, my 2c is CC should focus on stuff that can withstand their apparent incompetency. S-Tribute Cotton 2/Boomerang/Guardian Force? Those discs (and STV carts, these being True Ports™) have noticeable (though entirely acceptable imo) lag - not a great idea. Something like VING's razor-sharp Rayforce and EAR? More promising. Sounds like Deathsmiles and AK are on the right side of this equation, more or less.

Very insightful comment, I think that's an accurate summary.

I also wonder if there's any significant difference between ZeroDiv and CC proper. ZeroDiv had some shakiness with the earlier Psikyo releases, but their work on Deathsmiles and AK isn't so bad, so maybe there's something there.

Aside from the true fails like S-Tribute Cotton 2 (which, honestly, was more of an outlier), in general I'd rather have the CC ports than not. I don't think they're really preventing others from licensing and releasing the games in any substantial way, so something like an EAR that may have a couple extra frames of lag versus alternatives is an easily acceptable compromise to me to have the game available modern platforms. I'm gonna be more excited about M2, and I have confidence in Hamster's no frills/good quality approach, but even if CC doesn't quite meet the same standard I'm still glad they're actively porting good games.

[Jonpachi]

I think we're getting a little lost in an old "LJN made bad games!" kind of misinformation situation here.

City Connection is a publisher, and they might suck at that, but they're not the ones doing any development on these titles. They are contracting small studios (Zero Div, H2 Int, Success, etc) to do the dev work needed to get titles they own the rights to onto consoles and Steam. In many cases, this has meant buying up existing console games from past generations and porting them to new consoles with mixed results. They clearly prioritize low-cost, rapid-release scheduling over quality, which does tarnish their brand, but the results of each release are entirely up to the studio tasked with the port job.

The conversation should not be "City Connection makes bad ports," but, rather, "City Connection's business practices lead to inconsistent quality." There's no point in comparing/contrasting the actual games (as in why is Cotton Saturn Tribute 8 frames while the Psikyo Collection hit 4?) when their sources are so disparate.

[Bassa-Bassa]

City Connection is indeed a developer. All the S Tributes, the ports of Cave games, Psyvariar Delta, the mahjong series... most things they publish are developed or co-developed by them. They even do development for other publishers such as Kadokawa. They got ex-Jaleco, ex-Cave and ex-Psikyo people (as they acquired Zero Div) in their office, among others. In a way, they are currently the company best fitted to develop traditional STGs.

You do have a point, though! The people behind the S Tributes are a different team to the ones who developed Death Smiles 1-2 and Akai Katana Shin, and different as well to the one developing Strikers 2020 (lol). The Formation Z remake is the only one being outsourced. So yeah, it's better to keep this in mind with anything CC announces.

[Sengoku Strider]

6 frames of lag up from 4? Is it 6 frames of lag on xbox 360 as well? I'll watch his review eventually. If it has the same latency as the xbox 360 version then I'll probably get it. Who knows. I love Akai Katana, but I already have the xbox 360 game. So it's a tough ask to buy it again just for portability. Especially since the xbox 360 port was $20 back when I got my copy.

The YT video claims the 360 was around 4 frames of lag.

He did a full review of the 360 version a few months back, he came up with 4 & a half frames with that one:

https://youtu.be/XkAMFWLmZSQ

So the Switch is putting up a frame & a half extra from those measurements, while the Steam port appears to have one less.

Either way, Mark's threshold in his reviews for 'playable' is 5 frames, and he prefers MAME as his platform of choice so the differences will probably seem more stark to him than someone coming from another home platform as their baseline. People in this thread seemed fine with the Switch version here before I posted the input delay numbers.

[hamfighterx]

You do have a point, though! The people behind the S Tributes are a different team to the ones who developed Death Smiles 1-2 and Akai Katana Shin, and different as well to the one developing Strikers 2020 (lol). The Formation Z remake is the only one being outsourced. So yeah, it's better to keep this in mind with anything CC announces.

And even the S Tributes have varying quality. Cotton 2 & Guardian Force turned out way worse than Elevator Action Returns or Galactic Attack (and presumably Cleopatra Fortune).

Agreed with both of you though:
1) CC isn't necessarily the sole developer on any of these - but they do actually participate in development, they aren't solely a publisher. Hard to tell a lot of the time, especially without seeing full credits, how much involvement each team has though. Noticeable to me though, that these Cave ports with heavy involvement from ZeroDiv, turned out pretty solid IMO.

2) CC releases overall do tend to be somewhat inconsistent in quality, in large part due to significantly different dev teams.

[Sima Tuna]

Having watched mark's video now, I don't see any reason to defend the Switch version of Akai Katana. It costs more than the xbox 360 port did for years (and only now are they approaching similar values,) while providing an extra 2+ frames (remember that mark plays all his switch games with minimum latency on a hacked switch through a CRT.) Unless you really need portability, you're better off finding a used xbox 360 copy cheaply somewhere. I still see copies on ebay for 30 bux, and those are going to run with 4 frames of lag instead of 6.

As far as I'm concerned, adding more than one additional frame of lag to an xbox 360 port is a failure. The one additional frame of Switch lag, I can forgive. Almost every shmup port on switch has one extra lag frame compared to other systems. But anything more than that seems like laziness to me.

Remember, the Psikyo ports were lambasted for 6-7 frames of lag. 6 frames for Akai Katana is not really better than 6 frames for Gunbird. It's just that Akai Katana may be an easier game for some, and that the port Shitty Connection are copying wholesale (the xbox 360 port) is feature-rich with content. Unlike when Shitty Connection slap a saturn rom into their zebra engine, you can actually have extra features and training modes. But Shitty Connection didn't create those training modes or features. They just took them from the xbox 360 port.

I probably wouldn't be able to "feel" any lag on the switch. I'm bad at telling lag by feel. But six frames still definitely isn't "good" in my book. Just knowing that you can play the same *exact* port of the game on xbox 360 and immediately shave off two frames of lag... Why would I bother giving Shitty Connection my money?

I really hope these fucks don't get ahold of more Cave games and pull the same gimmick, porting them over and adding extra lag.

[beer gas canister]

man if your strats don't work with a couple of extra frames of lag it's time to get new strats. i appreciate reviewers going through the work of finding these things out but it isn't a massive crime to have a touch more lag. akai katana seems especially forgiving on this front because it has such a prominent invulnerability mechanic

[Bassa-Bassa]

And even the S Tributes have varying quality. Cotton 2 & Guardian Force turned out way worse than Elevator Action Returns or Galactic Attack (and presumably Cleopatra Fortune).

Agreed with both of you though:
1) CC isn't necessarily the sole developer on any of these - but they do actually participate in development, they aren't solely a publisher. Hard to tell a lot of the time, especially without seeing full credits, how much involvement each team has though. Noticeable to me though, that these Cave ports with heavy involvement from ZeroDiv, turned out pretty solid IMO.

2) CC releases overall do tend to be somewhat inconsistent in quality, in large part due to significantly different dev teams.

I wonder if the difference (regarding lag) between S Tribute Cotton-GF and Layer Section or EAR is not just the same as it is with the original games on the Saturn system, which, believe me, it's really noticeable. The emulator is the same for they all.

As far as I've read, the ports of the Cave games are the first developments of Take Off, a team which includes, among others, ex Zero Div Fukushima Factory staffers, which is more ex SPS people than ex Psikyo ones. Seems the ex Psikyo staff would be the ones making Strikers 2020.

[To Far Away Times]

Having watched mark's video now, I don't see any reason to defend the Switch version of Akai Katana. It costs more than the xbox 360 port did for years (and only now are they approaching similar values,) while providing an extra 2+ frames (remember that mark plays all his switch games with minimum latency on a hacked switch through a CRT.) Unless you really need portability, you're better off finding a used xbox 360 copy cheaply somewhere. I still see copies on ebay for 30 bux, and those are going to run with 4 frames of lag instead of 6.

As far as I'm concerned, adding more than one additional frame of lag to an xbox 360 port is a failure. The one additional frame of Switch lag, I can forgive. Almost every shmup port on switch has one extra lag frame compared to other systems. But anything more than that seems like laziness to me.

Remember, the Psikyo ports were lambasted for 6-7 frames of lag. 6 frames for Akai Katana is not really better than 6 frames for Gunbird. It's just that Akai Katana may be an easier game for some, and that the port Shitty Connection are copying wholesale (the xbox 360 port) is feature-rich with content. Unlike when Shitty Connection slap a saturn rom into their zebra engine, you can actually have extra features and training modes. But Shitty Connection didn't create those training modes or features. They just took them from the xbox 360 port.

I probably wouldn't be able to "feel" any lag on the switch. I'm bad at telling lag by feel. But six frames still definitely isn't "good" in my book. Just knowing that you can play the same *exact* port of the game on xbox 360 and immediately shave off two frames of lag... Why would I bother giving Shitty Connection my money?

I really hope these fucks don't get ahold of more Cave games and pull the same gimmick, porting them over and adding extra lag.

Six frames about is my limit. I can feel the lag at seven frames and start to adjust to playing with lag at that point.

With six frames, I can tell "I'm playing on an LCD monitor" but with modern LCD monitors it feels good enough. There is a huge difference between LCD monitors from 10 years ago and today.

The psykio ports are a real edge case for 6 frames because of the insane bullet speeds and reaction required in those games. They are a bit of an outlier, I think.

Also, all of my deaths are due to input lag, and never due to a lack of skill.

[BIL]

I don't even care about performance, score / 1CCs etc. Gaming is, to me, a primarily tactile past-time. The crispness of the response is an integral part of the enjoyment; I know full well I could adjust to 7f of lag, probably 10f. I just don't care to. Enough sludge between me and the onscreen response, and I might as well watch Top Gun. My past-time is no longer pleasant to me.

M2 and Hamster and guys like Mihara espouse this. I used to consider it a birthright, having grown up on first-rate Japanese action games. With noticeably laggy stuff like Cotton Boomerang and Garegga, it's something I'll put up with in exchange for those games' exceptionally high quality in other regards. Can't be helped, if you want to play their native formats. This isn't an indulgence I'll extend to noticeably sluggish ports/emulations. Why would I, when I've stacks of stuff that's perfectly crisp and yet to be explored?

I'm infinitely happier with the ZeroDiv-developed, CC-published PS4 Dragon Blaze and Strikers 1999's surprisingly sharp responsiveness, than I could ever be displeased by their lack of practice options, never mind goofy shit like Rewind. The PCBs don't have those either.

[Some-Mist]

past times include watching top gun and shittin up threads about input lag instead of playing the game at hand (which doesn't have more than 7 frames)

[BIL]

Beats shitting up my (or your!) collection with laggy ports.

I'm the first to urge people to play their games, and preferably contribute reviews/replays/strategies, instead of waiting in vain for more ports (or better ports) that'll take years to arrive, if ever. WRT this release, you'll see I said a few posts up that I'm sure PS4 AK is fine, just like Deathsmiles, Dragon Blaze, and Strikers 1999 before it. Jaimers and EOJ gave PS4 DS their blessing; either's okay is more than enough for me to pick a port up, even if I've only played a few credits, because I had (and have) a dozen different no-miss projects running simultaneously. I'm sure it'll provide many hours of Sidearms-esque fun when I get back to it circa 2035.

I'm still going to shoot myself if CC somehow pre-empt a ShotTriggers Batrider. \(O_O)/

[To Far Away Times]

Wait you play games? I thought we just complained about games on this forum and talked about how much better everything used to be.

[BIL]

I play games AND complain ;3

+

If anyone else finds my presence disagreeable, don't bottle it up like Some-Mist, and most definitely don't challenge me to a game of Naked Internet Twister re: REAL GAYMER CREDZ - there's an excellent chance you'll be pinned to the couch and fucked in the mouth. In fact, every last one of you would be banned on the spot until you had two STs for STGs you can reliably 1CC in your sigs, were I running this monkey farm.

(I'd be banned too, because existing ones would not count!)

Instead, click the red "!" in the post's lower-right, and fill in the report form. I suggest something like "pls delete mean man posts 3; 3; 3;"

[Some-Mist]

that's what you call "bottling it up" eh? instead of going into melty mode you should contribute towards the zetsu mode leaderboards on PC because they're pretty barren/all the competition seems stuck in slash mode. Someone has to give deexor a run and I don’t think I can do it

[BIL]

Commiserations on the slow board. I'm loath to get a copy for a platform that supports maybe 2% of my gaming library, plus any necessary hardware and controller upgrades I've missed out on, these last fifteen years or so of ignoring PC gaming. >_> I don't even play Quake on PC anymore.

I mean you sounded kinda mad, and AFAIK we've always been cool 3: Apparently I've spoiled multiple threads for you re: input latency. I woulda said sorry bro, but it's my cash goin' down the bowl if these shitbirds pull another fast one \(O_O)/

Let's all resolve to talk more, shumps frens 3; These are fucked up times! Don't be like this dude and jump out of the bushes! That's how you get collared by the rozzers! (I think he's still lurking on an alt, just scurred )

EDIT: Ohooo! MAH MANS EOJ comin' through w/them impressions. PS4 one sounding very promising indeed, time to fire up me JPSN. Fuckin hell, ACA METAL HAWK this evening, too.

Seems like the 360 one's not quite obsolete, re: Zetsu; but all I care about is the AC mode tbh, and that is why I ain't sell old discs besides.

[Some-Mist]

there isn't any beef lmao. I have no idea if it's a frequent occurrence (this is the only place I've seen it) since the only other shmups chat thread I really look at any more is the M2 one and their stuff is obviously a non-issue. I thought it was a pretty funny set of "past times" . after you first responded I was gonna give you shit about the "collection" but decided it wasn't warranted.

I was firmly on the xbox 360 train back in the 2010s but with newer releases I'm sick of buying new sticks so I've gravitated towards being a PC guy even though switch and ps4 has all the good shit... which I don't have a good setup for either. won't stop me from buying hishou same same same and all the other M2 releases on switch while getting frustrated at my TV and/or handheld controls.

playing AKS again this past week has kinda re-established how much I love the game outside of the uninspired bosses, when over the past 7+ years it has mostly dwindled out of my top 10 as the 360 gathers dust in the closet. on a side note even though the PCB is a pretty big mainstay in the cab I honestly wouldn't mind their next port being futari if they're straight up porting 360 releases with a tiny more lag.

[BIL]

after you first responded I was gonna give you shit about the "collection" but decided it wasn't warranted.

Wise move! Many a 4chan neckbeard has stepped to my shelf only to get a hard gaymer dick square in the mouth. I'm not a shelf queen I'm a shelf KING

[Sengoku Strider]

I was firmly on the xbox 360 train back in the 2010s but with newer releases I'm sick of buying new sticks so I've gravitated towards being a PC guy even though switch and ps4 has all the good shit... which I don't have a good setup for either.

I think most console USB stuff plays nice with PC these days. I know my Switch Rap V & Genesis 6-button say they're PC compatible. If only it were so easy to go from Switch -> PS4. Most of my STGs are on platforms other than PS4, but that meant I had to clear Ketsui, Garegga & Dangun Feveron with a stock PS4 controller.



My thumb was hamburger by the end of this.

[Some-Mist]

it's definitely a "me" issue. I bought a mayflash f500 elite that I modded out for my switch and after troubleshooting it/updating firmware and support talks with mayflash I just couldn't get it working. so I bought an adapter and it introduced more lag, so I just use it for PC now instead. ideally I'd have a nice monitor to go along with my switch for a cleaner setup but it's a dock we share connected to an old LG hdtv.

I mostly play the switch shmups with a pro controller or deal with the arcade stick lag and adjust

edit: there's potential it'll excite BIL

Spoiler

the adventures of baron munchausen

[Rastan78]

This is why this morning I broke down and ordered a custom stick case and a Brook UFB. No more worrying about added lag, compatability and the dreaded hamburger thumb.

The up front cost is kinda nasty but then I think bout how many pads I've bought that all end up getting mushy after a while or getting stick drift.

As far as this port goes it would've been cool to see them try to match the arcade mode slowdown. My understanding is the 360 port is like 0% accurate in that regard. We finally got that with G Darius HD after waiting decades. I guess this is shitty connection we're talking about here so expecting them to do more than a straight port of an already existing port is too much to ask.

[BIL]

edit: there's potential it'll excite BIL

Spoiler

the adventures of baron munchausen

Patrician taste in horror/fantasy materials as always.

[Jonpachi]

That sounds nasty. Is it contagious?

[Ms. Tea]

I also wonder if there's any significant difference between ZeroDiv and CC proper. ZeroDiv had some shakiness with the earlier Psikyo releases, but their work on Deathsmiles and AK isn't so bad, so maybe there's something there.

FWIW Deathsmiles and AK were codeveloped by Chantake's Takex0ff label, which also seems to be part of CC. Most of the staff are still from Zerodiv, but having someone who knows how to play shmups at a high level in charge of direction seems to be paying off.

[BIL]

having someone who knows how to play shmups at a high level in charge of direction seems to be paying off.

This seems like a common denominator amongst quality modern releases; see also M2 and Hamster working with arcade diehards like SPS and TZW_Guile. It's nothing new, passion plus craftsmanship... in a sense, the last six years have been the strongest-ever for AC home releases. I know my selection has exploded since Garegga 2016 (and ACA Bubble Bobble) showed me that traditional twitch gaming needn't be compromised on HD consoles. Just need to get a few more ever-dependable performers alongside M2 and Hamster.

[jehu]

Did anyone else verify Mark's numbers on Switch AK port?

I saw like 3 different numbers floating around about the Steam port's lag, Mark's data on the high end. Don't know how many people have the equipment to do the measuring, but it doesn't seem like the most precise science.