Classic Toaplan Vs Seibu Kaihatsu

[SPM]

Since I can't get out of this (fantastic) rabbit hole, I'm curious about your opinion on this particular style (almost a sub-genre). Who did it better?

I guess you can also count Tiger Heli, Daisenpuu and maybe Viper Phase 1 (I haven't played this last one, Idk if it's similar enough).

I'd say Raiden DX tilts the balance, but all of them are great!

Edit: Don't take into account later/different titles when voting please

[Steven]

lol everyone already knows what I voted for~

BTW why isn't there a Viper Phase 2?

[_rm_]

The titles you consider from Seibu Kaihatsu are newer, and doesn't seem fair. From the list you posted i definitely prefer Seibu.

BUT, if you consider titles like Dogyuun or Outzone (more contemporary considering DX's launch year), i preferer Toaplan by a loooooong difference.

[EmperorIng]

This will be a silly answer, but of what we're dealing with, while I think Seibu games are pretty fun, their relative difficulty is a bit too high for me to enjoy for the casual 1ALL experience, whereas Toaplan games with some exceptions like Same! are far more approachable and easy to get in to. Toaplan has its fair share of clunkers though, I can't say I like games like Dogyuun or Tatsujin Ou beyond the graphics/music (mycophobia did make that nice hack though for TatsOu).

Of course, long after Toaplan closed when Seibu was branching out into neat STGs like Viper Phase 1 and especially the Raiden Fighters series is when you see probably the best "expression" of their style imo.

[moonblood]

Man, imagine a M2 Viper Phase port.. I'd pay good money for that. Or a rerelease of Raiden Fighters Aces + Viper Phase for the current generation, that would be even sweeter

[To Far Away Times]

Not to be a party pooper but I don't think the super old verts are really that much fun. Hori's from this era fare much better I feel. The best game from either studio is Batsugun, but that's not on the list.

[Leandro]

Seibu too brutal for me, even though I enjoy some of them.
I prefer the memorizer style of Toaplan. Truxton and V-V are two good examples.

Enviado de meu 2201116SG usando o Tapatalk

[SPM]

The titles you consider from Seibu Kaihatsu are newer, and doesn't seem fair. From the list you posted i definitely prefer Seibu.

BUT, if you consider titles like Dogyuun or Outzone (more contemporary considering DX's launch year), i preferer Toaplan by a loooooong difference.

I only considered those titles because they share the same style/formula. Outzone, Tatsujins, RFighters, etc are a different beast.

I think it's a fair comparison even if Seibu copied Toaplan. Newer doesn't mean better, especially in this genre. I have a hard time ranking them tbh.

So far I'd say something like this:
Raiden DX > Same ~ Raiden ~ KTiger ~ Hishou > Raiden II
but they're really close for many different reasons.

Not to be a party pooper but I don't think the super old verts are really that much fun. Hori's from this era fare much better I feel. The best game from either studio is Batsugun, but that's not on the list.

Some time ago I thought the same about this style, but I've come around and love it now. It's not too late for you, there's still hope!

[Steven]

Sometimes I feel like a heretic for thinking that Batsugun is absolutely, unquestionably the single worst (or least good, if you prefer) STG Toaplan ever made. Yes, I like Tiger-Heli more than Batsugun.

[Sengoku Strider]

Team Warashi has entered the chat

[Sumez]

Classic Toaplan all the god damn way :O

[Austin]

Seibu.

They took what made the Toaplan shooters great, polished things up a lot and put their own spin on things. It was a natural evolution of that style of shooter for a period, before things evolved further throughout the '90s.

[Flobeamer1922]

Classic Toaplan for sure.

[maximo310]

If I had to rank them it'd go:

Raiden DX 2P>Same3!>Hishou>Raiden I 2P> Raiden II> KTiger> Daisenpuu

( did not include Viper Phase 1 as I've gotten to stage 5 on 1 credit, but so far its around Raiden I/II enjoyment wise at the moment. Outzone is also probably no.2 on the list.)

It's pretty difficult for most Toaplan titles to compete with DX, give how the latter is pretty well rounded in game length, multiple courses & a smoother difficulty curve, along with the depth of its proto-Psikyo medalling system. But I personally enjoy a lot of other Toaplan titles too, even including Dogyuun ( which people love/hate i guess) /Fixeight due to their solid gameplay feel & mechanics ( even if scoring is generally pretty simple).

[copy-paster]

Raiden 1 felt like a better, polished reimagining of Kyuukyoku Tiger and I prefer the former. Despite the influential designs I somehow cannot get into classic style Toaplan, I think Same! x3 have best gameplay out of the classic ones but also bastardly hard for the wrong reason, and 2P set lacks hori scrolling and weird autofire mechanism.

[Marc]

Sometimes I feel like a heretic for thinking that Batsugun is absolutely, unquestionably the single worst (or least good, if you prefer) STG Toaplan ever made. Yes, I like Tiger-Heli more than Batsugun.

I mean, someone has to ask.....WTF?

[SPM]

It's pretty difficult for most Toaplan titles to compete with DX, give how the latter is pretty well rounded in game length, multiple courses & a smoother difficulty curve, along with the depth of its proto-Psikyo medalling system.

Raiden 1 felt like a better, polished reimagining of Kyuukyoku Tiger and I prefer the former. (...) I think Same! x3 have best gameplay out of the classic ones but also bastardly hard for the wrong reason, and 2P set lacks hori scrolling and weird autofire mechanism.

100% agree. I also prefer Raiden, especially over Twin Cobra (probably its main influence, even more so than KTiger), but those KTiger checkpoints are some of the best I've ever seen in a shmup. Recoveries in Raiden are not something I look forward to at all (with or without checkpoints). To me KTiger (with its CPs) is really close to Raiden 1.

Same! 1P is awesome despite its difficulty balance. Btw, what's the deal with autofire and Same! 2P? I didn't know about this, but I don't like that version that much without the horizontal panning anyway.

Sometimes I feel like a heretic for thinking that Batsugun is absolutely, unquestionably the single worst (or least good, if you prefer) STG Toaplan ever made. Yes, I like Tiger-Heli more than Batsugun.

I mean, someone has to ask.....WTF?

I wouldn't go as far, but yeah, I don't understand why it's SO highly praised. I do think it's a good and important shmup for the genre though, their 5th-6th best game.

[Steven]

Sometimes I feel like a heretic for thinking that Batsugun is absolutely, unquestionably the single worst (or least good, if you prefer) STG Toaplan ever made. Yes, I like Tiger-Heli more than Batsugun.

I mean, someone has to ask.....WTF?

It's a combination of what Batsugun both has and does not have that makes me dislike it. It's got far worse enemy placement than any of the Yuge/Uemura games, as those guys, especially Uemura, really know how to do enemy placement. In Batsugun, it seems like enemies are just kind of there, but then you go play even Tiger-Heli and it is quite clear that every enemy in Tiger-Heli is placed where it is for a very specific purpose other than to simply shit out bullets. I want a game with really great enemy placement, that relies heavily on memorization just to survive the game, and has checkpoints to recover from when you die. Batsugun has none of those things.

Batsugun also has the single most boring and tedious boss I have seen in any game ever: Jupiter. It's so boring and it takes so damn long that I don't enjoy fighting it at all and it drags the game as a whole down just by existing.

So, yes, Batsugun is unquestionably the Toaplan STG that I like the least.

[To Far Away Times]

Classic vert checkpoint crawlers are one of those things I will never understand. They feel endless and without purpose or urgency until some random fast shot kills you and you spiral into check point hell.

And I play a lot of stuff. Classic hori's, bullet hells, more modernish games. I've never really gotten along with classic verts.

[SPM]

^ Fair enough, but no purpose or urgency? Idk... if you play mindlessly in autopilot mode moving from one side to the other until a sniper gets you, yeah I get it (been there done that before). But how about actively trying to avoid getting killed by that "random fast shot"? Screen control, focus, deliberate movements, tension! I love them

I'm not the biggest fan of checkpoints in general, but if they're well thought out, recovering is always possible and feels really good. In KTiger surviving with red (and sometimes bombs) until you manage to get a 3-way blue is soooo satisfying

In games like Same! I have mixed feelings because losing your speed is kind of annoying, but still fun if done properly.

[innen]

Well. Toaplan ever.