soukyugurentai emulation

[jonathan]

Hi there,
Is there a way to properly emulate "soukyugurentai"? I tried the Mame (STV) and saturn emulators, but the emulation is never perfect.
thanks for your help,
jonathan

[Sengoku Strider]

There is a PS1 version, give emulating that a try? (Or just buy it for Saturn, it's not crazy expensive in Japan and worth every penny).

[EmperorIng]

The ps1 version emulates very "well" but it is an imperfect port with some arcade inaccuracies and additional slowdown. However, duckstation emulates this version without a hitch. I think if you tweaked settings you could probably lessen the slowdown.

There are scoring differences between the arcade and ps1 versions but I am working with the shmup hacker extraordinaire olifante to release a ps1 hack that makes the scoring more on par with the Saturn original.

[tomwhite2004]

To emulate the Saturn port use https://mednafen.github.io/ together with https://github.com/AmatCoder/mednaffe. This will play the game with zero issues, no need to look into emulating the PS1 version.

[Bassa-Bassa]

This will play the game with zero issues

If added lag doesn't count as an issue.

[Sengoku Strider]

There are scoring differences between the arcade and ps1 versions but I am working with the shmup hacker extraordinaire olifante to release a ps1 hack that makes the scoring more on par with the Saturn original.

Here's a question: what, if anything, would you change about how scoring works in the game in a theoretical arrange mode?

[Gamer707b]

Just as Sengoku Strider mentions, just buy the Saturn game if you can. Considering how crazy expensive Saturn games have gotten, this is still surprisingly cheap. You can get a nice copy under $100 USD. I bought the white label 2nd run of the game just a few months ago and it was around $70. You don't got to fuss around with emulating and getting it to work. I own many Saturn shooters, but this one is as good as, if not better than the more expensive Saturn shooters I have. BTW. Just saw one on Ebay for 52 bucks. A steal if you ask me.

[DMC]

Here's a question: what, if anything, would you change about how scoring works in the game in a theoretical arrange mode?

As it is now, the main shot is quite useless for scoring, because there is no multiplier connected to it. Only the secondary weapon, the lock-on, is connected to the multipler system (for example, if you lock on to 6 enemies you get a x4 multiplier applied to each of them). So an arrange mode could try to integrate the main shot somehow. A straightforward way would be to add a timer for each multiplier so that once you used the lock on shot to trigger a multipler, you have a few seconds where you can use the main shot to exploit it.

My guess is that Raizing thought of doing something like that because
a) they did it in Dimahoo (you first use the charge weapon to trigger items, then you can use the main shot to obtain further items as long as the timer bar is active)
b) there is a visual error in Soukyugurentai that hints of something like the above. For example, if you use the lock-on to trigger a x4 multiplier you will see the flashing x4 for a while (as if there were a timer) before it disappears. If you shortly thereafter use your main shot to destroy an enemy, the flashing x4 will pop up again (as if the multiplier was reactivited by the main shot), but there is no multiplier applied to your score. For a long time I took for granted that I could get a multiplier with the main shot this way so I tried to kill enemies with the main shot quickly after the lock-on, but then I counted the points and it was clear there is never a multiplier connected to the main shot.

[Steven]

Yeah, just buy it on Saturn. I paid 6000 yen for a pristine complete copy in December; that was the last game I bought last year (and somehow Sonic 06 was the first I bought this year lol). Fortunately Soukyuugurentai is one of the cheapest STGs on Saturn, and also one of the best. If you have a Saturn, you need this game.

[SPM]

It is that bad on MAME?

[Bassa-Bassa]

Last I checked, even the lockon's wireframe didn't render properly.

The Saturn is one of those must-own consoles, really. At least until the Mister core shows a better face.

[Steven]

A dude who made the game told me to never play the ST-V version and to only ever play the Saturn version because the Saturn version is the best version, so yeah, don't play the ST-V version. ST-V is basically a Saturn but with a JAMMA connector and a ROM cartridge instead of a disc drive anyway from what I understand, so I doubt ST-V software emulation is significantly different from Saturn software emulation.

[Bassa-Bassa]

ST-V is basically a Saturn but with a JAMMA connector and a ROM cartridge instead of a disc drive anyway

That latter part is not a superfluous thing, though. It's due to that that many STV-to-Saturn ports lose animation frames, samples and get loading times. Shooters like Gurentai usually don't and that's why you got that answer (and likely the home version got small fixes?), I guess, but you don't want the Saturn versions of the STV fighters, believe me.

[Jonpachi]

Yes, go for the Saturn version if you can, but I am defender of the PSX version and think it gets an unduly bad rap. There is some additional slowdown, but it's almost entirely during big scene transitions where there's not much action, and the additional bonus ship is exclusive and a lot of fun. It's a very solid version of the game, and worth your time even if you've played the superior Saturn version(s).

[EmperorIng]

I echo what DMC says, pretty much as it stands the shot is useless in Soukyugurentai not only for score but often it doesn't do as much damage as the web, so you tend to almost entirely ignore it. Add that to the fact that powering up your shot adds to the game's rank, you have every reason to avoid using the main shot. My "ideal" version would fix that somehow.

The biggest scoring difference between the PS1 and Saturn version is that the PS1 version removes the bomb bug, which gives every bomb collected past 10 bombs an exponentially high value due to an overflow. Olifante changed the values of the bomb table in the PS1 version so as far as I know his hack restores this bug (while not doing anything with the slowdown etc. of course). Considering Duckstation is a highly responsive emulator, I bet you could find ways to mitigate the extra slowdown of the ps1 port and have a very nearly comparative Soukyugurentai experience.

[Steven]

ST-V is basically a Saturn but with a JAMMA connector and a ROM cartridge instead of a disc drive anyway

That latter part is not a superfluous thing, though. It's due to that that many STV-to-Saturn ports lose animation frames, samples and get loading times. Shooters like Gurentai usually don't and that's why you got that answer (and likely the home version got small fixes?), I guess, but you don't want the Saturn versions of the STV fighters, believe me.

lol I don't want any versions of the ST-V fighting games, but yes, there are some games that are better on ST-V than on Saturn because of the cartridge. I'm not sure what the differences between the ST-V and Saturn versions of Soukyuugurentai are, but I think there is some sort of score glitch or something like that in the ST-V version that was fixed on Saturn.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Yeah, I kind of recall reading about that once, if I'm not mistaking the game. The other Eighting games on Saturn though, I guess it's not that easy to say which version is preferable.

[Untitled1]

I have a feeling this game will make its way over to switch soon enough, just like radiant silvergun and layer section 1/2. Only a matter of time

[EmperorIng]

There were no glitches or fixes from STV to Saturn, it is as straight a conversion as you can expect. If anything it seemed to have added a few slight bugs here and there, mainly with graphics/sprites.

You might be thinking of the ps1 ver., which "fixed" the bomb scoring bug which was present on the arcade and saturn versions, which makes the scoring between the two not comparable.



This is the bomb table in the ps1 port. In the arcade, to quote olifante, it goes like this:

Code: Select all

the bonus is supposed to go 1000 -> 2000 -> 4000 -> 8000 -> 16000, and reset to 1000 when a bomb is dropped
but due to the bug it goes 1000 -> 4000 -> 16000 -> 0xa000b

With that variable value being 655371.

Again, this was "fixed" but this does change the big score dynamic from never bombing, which can add a neat layer of strategy to the game as you can control the bomb spawns somewhat.

[Steven]

Yeah, I don't know the details, but Toyama-san definitely said to not play the arcade version and to play the Saturn version instead because of some glitch or glitches (Japanese is a rather vague and context-based language, so it could be singular or plural in this case) in the ST-V version. He also mentioned the same thing in this interview as well: https://shmuplations.com/raizing/

Toyama: For the Saturn port we fixed the bugs from arcade version, so we want players to play that version… but then again, it also has hardware problems, so in the end it's up to the player to choose.

So yeah, who knows. If I run into him again, I'll be sure to ask him.

[Gamer707b]

I just realized the OP went MIA. He asked a question and checked out. Lol/ and we are here conversing about the game amongst ourselves. Huh. Maybe he bought the Saturn ver. after all?

[Steven]

Yeah, I noticed that too, but I do think it's worth having the discussion to dissect Soukyuugurentai and see the differences between the versions. I'm sure all of the information about that is somewhere already, but I'm kind of too lazy to go find it, so yeah~

[pulsemod]

we don't even know if the OP has a Japanese Saturn, or a Saturn at all. I kinda doubt the OP would be asking about emulation options if they owned a Saturn given how simple it would be to burn a copy... buying the game isn't as trivial a cost as some people make it sound, even if it's on the cheaper end of Saturn games nowadays.

too bad that playing on the actual hardware seems to be the only way to properly run it, then!

[sunnshiner]

I'm utterly shit at the game but it seems to run ok in Retroarch (Beetle core) on my lowly i3-6100 + GT1030.

[Steven]

I'm utterly shit at the game but it seems to run ok in Retroarch (Beetle core) on my lowly i3-6100 + GT1030.

Never power up your shot, as powering up your shot makes the game's rank go crazy and it makes the game spawn less item carriers, and those item carriers that do spawn will drop less bombs. It's probably the biggest design flaw in the game, as it makes the regular shot pretty pointless and actively discourages you from using anything but the lock-on. Still a super badass game with a beautiful soundtrack, though, and a hell of a lot of fun.

[Sengoku Strider]

Here's a question: what, if anything, would you change about how scoring works in the game in a theoretical arrange mode?

As it is now, the main shot is quite useless for scoring, because there is no multiplier connected to it. Only the secondary weapon, the lock-on, is connected to the multipler system (for example, if you lock on to 6 enemies you get a x4 multiplier applied to each of them). So an arrange mode could try to integrate the main shot somehow. A straightforward way would be to add a timer for each multiplier so that once you used the lock on shot to trigger a multipler, you have a few seconds where you can use the main shot to exploit it.

My guess is that Raizing thought of doing something like that because
a) they did it in Dimahoo (you first use the charge weapon to trigger items, then you can use the main shot to obtain further items as long as the timer bar is active)
b) there is a visual error in Soukyugurentai that hints of something like the above. For example, if you use the lock-on to trigger a x4 multiplier you will see the flashing x4 for a while (as if there were a timer) before it disappears. If you shortly thereafter use your main shot to destroy an enemy, the flashing x4 will pop up again (as if the multiplier was reactivited by the main shot), but there is no multiplier applied to your score. For a long time I took for granted that I could get a multiplier with the main shot this way so I tried to kill enemies with the main shot quickly after the lock-on, but then I counted the points and it was clear there is never a multiplier connected to the main shot.

I echo what DMC says, pretty much as it stands the shot is useless in Soukyugurentai not only for score but often it doesn't do as much damage as the web, so you tend to almost entirely ignore it. Add that to the fact that powering up your shot adds to the game's rank, you have every reason to avoid using the main shot. My "ideal" version would fix that somehow.

These are my thoughts as well, I've mentioned them here a couple of times in the past. Even aside from the scoring, rank systems that punish powering up take a lot of the fun of the shooting part out of shooters imo. But restricting scoring multipliers to the NALS system practically takes it out of the game altogether.

we don't even know if the OP has a Japanese Saturn, or a Saturn at all.

Yeah but if you're a shmup player this is like not owning a fridge. It's just implied that obviously, OP should sell something he doesn't really need like his PC or furniture for one if need be.

[Steven]

Yeah but if you're a shmup player this is like not owning a fridge.

I don't have a fridge... I do have 2 Saturns, though, so that more than makes up for it.

...right?

[DMC]

Even aside from the scoring, rank systems that punish powering up take a lot of the fun of the shooting part out of shooters imo. But restricting scoring multipliers to the NALS system practically takes it out of the game altogether.

The NALS weapon (especially Pinpoint) is so satisfying to use, so I don't mind too much. Pinpont is probably my favorite weapon in any shmup all things considered: great visuals and sound effects, great build-up-and-release dynamic, great balance between being powerful but not overpowered, addictive multipliers with immediate reward, it encourages you to move and proactively kill enemies rather than passively stay at the bottom, it offers great flexibility by letting you switch between two NALS weapon to utilize both their strengths. I don't know, i generally like lock-on weapons like the "Free range" in TFV and the Rayforce and Crimzon Clover ones, but Souky has the best lock-on I've seen (what are the other candidates?).

[BPzeBanshee]

Last I checked, even the lockon's wireframe didn't render properly.

The Saturn is one of those must-own consoles, really. At least until the Mister core shows a better face.

Look, you're not wrong about the benefits of owning the real thing, but how long has it been since you fired it up in MAME?

I, for one, didn't see any render problems with it in last month's MAME release. I wouldn't be surprised to see RetroArch's dodgy non-MAMEdev-endorsed decade-old-fork MAME cores having problems though.

[sunnshiner]

Why are people using MAME to emulate the Saturn instead of Mednafen?