F%^$ing hypocrites!

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, I don't know that FPSes (certain ones) aren't as refined. Take Counter-Strike...millions (and more!) of matches played so far, and they've balanced the maps and loadouts so that you're about even no matter which team you're on. The basic DOOM type deathmatch concept makes it so that only skill and pings separate players. The general idea of a FPS hasn't changed really that much since mouselook and Hexen II (wait, was I saying that FPSes have evolved a lot...? Oh, so I did.)

I do agree with the core assessment that the shmups genre is mature in general, though as with any other game each one must be playtested to ensure that it is indeed balanced correctly. Unfortunately, the marketing juggernaut wants to see new and substantial improvements every year, so this cautious approach makes the genre a pretty hard sell for developers.

[louisg]

Well, I don't know that FPSes (certain ones) aren't as refined. Take Counter-Strike...millions (and more!) of matches played so far, and they've balanced the maps and loadouts so that you're about even no matter which team you're on. The basic DOOM type deathmatch concept makes it so that only skill and pings separate players. The general idea of a FPS hasn't changed really that much since mouselook and Hexen II (wait, was I saying that FPSes have evolved a lot...? Oh, so I did.)

I do agree with the core assessment that the shmups genre is mature in general, though as with any other game each one must be playtested to ensure that it is indeed balanced correctly. Unfortunately, the marketing juggernaut wants to see new and substantial improvements every year, so this cautious approach makes the genre a pretty hard sell for developers.

I think what makes it a hard sell isn't that it's not a constantly evolving genre (just compare bullet-eaters/scrapers to plain manics-- that's all in the last few years, and radically changes the approach players take), but people see the oldschool game genre and immediately will write it off as the same old thing. It was interesting when Ikaruga came out that reviewers recognized it as more than a throwback-- if only they would see that in other recent shooters.

BTW, a <B>1993</B> Taito coinop FPS deathmatch-focused game had mouselook with a seperate fore/back/strafe control-- GunBusters. It used not keyboard and mouse, but a joystick for the strafing and walking and a cab-mounted gun for aiming and turning. Worth a look for FPS history.

[raiden]

Saying they missed these games is quite another. That IS lying. That is a fucking insult

you know, it might even be true. Have you considered the possibility of people being out there that just don´t like the way shmups have evolved? Who preferered the old style and wish more of that would be made nowadays? I´ve met quite a bunch of those.

The general idea of a FPS hasn't changed really that much since mouselook and Hexen II

this is pretty much the same attitude towards fps that is so often complained about here when it´s geared towards shmups. Only because you haven´t played any of the milestones in the fps genre, doesn´t mean the genre hasn´t evolved. I´ll just do a short list with keywords of the game´s focus:

Aliens vs. Predator (3 parties with completely different abilities, even different vision)
C&C Renegade (fps meets rts. vehicle production and resource management combined with fps gameplay)
Farcry (excellent AI, the player needs to find ways to pluck enemies from an overpowering enemy force without the rest noticing)
Halflife (puzzle situations, non-obtrusive story i.e. player retains control even in cinematic sequences)
Vietcong (dense maps where line of sight is the key winning factor)

these are just a few I´ve played over the years, and I´m by no means an expert on the genre.

[The Coop]

Saying they missed these games is quite another. That IS lying. That is a fucking insult

you know, it might even be true. Have you considered the possibility of people being out there that just don´t like the way shmups have evolved? Who preferered the old style and wish more of that would be made nowadays? I´ve met quite a bunch of those.

Damn good point my shmup named comrade.

I know I've always preferred the older shmup style over the bullet-laden massacres that make up a good percentage of shmups these days. Under Defeat felt like a breath of fresh air, as did Border Down. It was like the gameplay from shmups of old had been given a face lift, and new mechanics had been introduced. There weren't 1,153 shots coming at me, but rather enemies moving about in formation in amongst the bullets. There actually was a sense of hope, even at the most intense points (like that battleship boss you encounter in UD). Gradius V was like this as well, and all were welcome entries into the shmup realm after so many bulletfest games. I can easily see this compilation pack being a welcome blast from the past in terms of gameplay and the like.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the bullet-hell type of shmup. I own quite a few. But I've always placed the likes of Raiden II and Undeadline above Mars Matrix and Giga Wing for their smart usage of shots and enemy patterns, instead massive amounts of either. I'll always enjoy Giga Wing 2 and it's ilk, but the ways of older shmups will always come first for me.



By the way... are there any bullet-hell shmups that are side view? All the ones I've seen are top view. Surely a side scroller entry's been made by now.

[louisg]

this is pretty much the same attitude towards fps that is so often complained about here when it´s geared towards shmups. Only because you haven´t played any of the milestones in the fps genre, doesn´t mean the genre hasn´t evolved. I´ll just do a short list with keywords of the game´s focus:

Aliens vs. Predator (3 parties with completely different abilities, even different vision)
C&C Renegade (fps meets rts. vehicle production and resource management combined with fps gameplay)
Farcry (excellent AI, the player needs to find ways to pluck enemies from an overpowering enemy force without the rest noticing)
Halflife (puzzle situations, non-obtrusive story i.e. player retains control even in cinematic sequences)
Vietcong (dense maps where line of sight is the key winning factor)

these are just a few I´ve played over the years, and I´m by no means an expert on the genre.

I think you meant Goldeneye instead of Halflife =) And what about Corporation/Cybercop? That's a first person adventure that people seem to have forgotten. And then you could have Serious Sam as an FPS-arena representitive.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think what makes it a hard sell isn't that it's not a constantly evolving genre (just compare bullet-eaters/scrapers to plain manics-- that's all in the last few years, and radically changes the approach players take), but people see the oldschool game genre and immediately will write it off as the same old thing.

Point well taken. I think the major hurdle for shmups is that most don't get nearly as much funding as the average 3D action adventure game, and secondly if you're in 2D that makes it harder for marketers to get excited about your product. The percieved Sony bias against 2D, for example (don't really want to open up that issue, but suffice to say that there's a feeling you aren't getting your money's worth for a 2D game that can be played through quickly, even if it has vast amounts of replay value).

BTW, a <B>1993</B> Taito coinop FPS deathmatch-focused game had mouselook with a seperate fore/back/strafe control-- GunBusters. It used not keyboard and mouse, but a joystick for the strafing and walking and a cab-mounted gun for aiming and turning. Worth a look for FPS history.

There's also CyClones (basically from the same year), which was the first actual mouselook game (works very similarly to GunBuster, but without the strafe on the left and right arrow keys). I only throw Heretic II out there because that's when game developers got serious about making mouselook a standard.

Great points, though, and that prompted me to fix my Gunbuster settings for MAME :) Interesting game.

[Ghegs]

By the way... are there any bullet-hell shmups that are side view? All the ones I've seen are top view. Surely a side scroller entry's been made by now.

There's Progear, and quite a few PC doujin shmups.

[gavin19]

Just to add, I think that a lot of gamers, esp younger ones would view shmups as pretty shallow games when compared to say a FF game or Halo or whatever. I love shmups myself but I rarely play for points, preferring to just concentrate on survival. I have heard said many times that to get the most out of a shmup that it should be played for points via chaining/buzzing etc, but I would imagine to a lot of gamers the strategies and knowledge of multipliers etc would be a stretch too far. The scoring systems in some shooters can be quite complex compared to the 'dumbed-down' gameplay of most mainstream games and this may be off-putting to many people. Maybe I'm under-estimating gamers?

[Middlemoor]

SHMUP developers could take some hints from Tyrian 2000 (http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=2497) and start putting more into titles.

[Macaw]

SHMUP developers could take some hints from Tyrian 2000 (http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=2497) and start putting more into titles.

Tyrian was created as a home game though hence its obsurd amount of other modes, minigames, secrets, weapon buying system and all that. Arcade games would lose their focus if they started getting crammed with huge amounts of other stuff. Of course we can always hope for home ports to be crammed with all kinds of extra stuff, but obviously that hasnt exactly happened in recent times, yet I doubt most people would want much more than a faithful bare-bones port.

[louisg]

SHMUP developers could take some hints from Tyrian 2000 (http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=2497) and start putting more into titles.

I actually think a strength of shmups is that they are kept short. That way, developers can concentrate on making sure the game works very well, and I wish other genres would do the same. Tyrian is fun, but it's just not as finetuned as the shorter arcade games. It's certainly got a lot of stuff though-- maybe it's the Gran Turismo of shooters =)

[FRO]

Publishers have the gaming media industry in thier pockets.

Sorta like the music industry w/ radio & "Payola" eh? This is nothing new. The industry pumps out games that are public demand based on what the masses are told they want. Once the interest in a particular genre wanes in the eyes of the masses (the way shmups did in the mid-90's), that genre gets little attention beyond that point. We're told what's cool & we believe it. Or at least some of us do. Those of us in this forum, however, have chosen the path of greater resistance - shmups. Yes, some of us were swept up in the "shmups heyday" of the late 80's & early 90's, but realistically, it's all about the gameplay. Fortunately, those of us who actually enjoy the gameplay of shmups (& didn't just buy them because we though the box-art or screenshots looked good) have stuck with them, rather than tossing them aside like yesterday's hot gaming genre.

My advice to everyone here is to pay no mind to the larger publications & sites like IGN - you know what you like & you don't have to depend on the court of public opinion to decide that. If you're comfortable importing, do it. If you feel that strongly about shmup ports to your area, make sure you write gaming companies & let them know that you want your shmups. Posting angry messages on this forum will certainly not do anything to give IGN cause to quit printing sketchy reviews of good shmups.

[icycalm]

Yeah, you are totally missing the point.

My advice to everyone here is to pay no mind to the larger publications & sites like IGN - you know what you like & you don't have to depend on the court of public opinion to decide that.

That is some silly-ass advice. No one "depends on the court of public opinion to decide." Reviews are only partly about making buying decisions. But they are also about appreciation. I often read reviews AFTER I have played a game. As a thinking human being I NEED others' opinions. And that's what critics do. They give you their own, often more knowledgeable, opinion.

Also, IGN is not public opinion, as you say--it is IGN-opinion. Paying no mind to large publications is also silly because they are the ones with the news on the lastest games. If you want to know the news about latest games you have to visit them.

Posting angry messages on this forum will certainly not do anything to give IGN cause to quit printing sketchy reviews of good shmups.

Did I say anywhere thay my goal was to "give IGN cause to quit printing sketchy reviews of good shmups"? I don't think so.

I didn't even READ their review.

Didn't you read my initial post? My problem was with them saying that they missed Gradius, whereas in fact that is a bold-faced lie. The quality of their reviews was not the subject of this thread.

Finally, I hope you have nothing against angry posts. Cause that would make me really sad. I happen to be often angry. It's a higher state of mind.

[Skyknight]

"Unlike other popular genres of the 1980s, however, the "Shmup" category hasn't evolved much past its original roots, and finding a good shooter that isn't played in the first-person perspective nowadays is close to impossible."

{sigh} Does IGN even realize how dissimilar the precepts of shmups and first-person shooters are? The latter are more like Metal Slug than Raiden (by however small a margin)!

Although, there is at least one shmup-friendly print publication these days--Hardcore Gamer. If its style is any indication, it's patterning itself on GameFan...

[Middlemoor]

Tyrian was created as a home game though hence its obsurd amount of other modes, minigames, secrets, weapon buying system and all that.

Yeah, I was thinking more about console SHMUPs.

[Trevor spencer]

Only gaming magazines I liked were Mean Machines Sega and EGM.

mean machines was the bollocks i use to like sega saturn mag too lots of imports