Retro console arcade controllers?

[ulfrinn]

I was wondering just how bad old home console arcade controllers actually are? I know you can get a lot for newer consoles that have actual arcade controller parts, but what about controllers like the Atari 2600, NES Advantage, the 6 button Sega Genesis arcade controller? I was considering getting a couple of them if for nothing more than collection purposes. But, if cleaned up, refurbished, new membranes, are they any good? I noticed they tend to use a disc that sits over top of some membranes that press down on the PCB contacts similarly to how d-pads work, but I've also seen tactile/mechanical switch mods for them that some say make them feel much closer to an arcade stick but with a very short, quick, and consistent throw.

Are there any merit to them? Stock, or modded?

[bigbadboaz]

It depends how much you despise the idea of an arcade stick based on Dpad design. Many of these actually perform just fine, but they feel nothing like a real arcade stick not just because of the parts but because the cases back then were so far off solid, arcade design as well.

Giant buttons based on membrane design in particular can feel absolutely terrible (even if they totally work).

One interesting thing is the Japanese only Sega Arcade Power Stick did ship with a microswitched stick. For the American release they were so determined to be cheap they actually redesigned it to be full-membrane. So if you really want to test the waters with these, maybe track down that isolated Japanese stick. And a 3-button MD controller is perfect for shmups!

Really, though, you should get a feel for one before wasting any money. I can't imagine any retro game store doesn't have at least one of the vintage sitting around that you could go in and bang on for a few minutes.

[ulfrinn]

So, basically, if such a controller did have tactile switches, they would actually feel pretty good, be pretty responsive, and actually perform quite well at schmups..... with the only problem being that outside of a likely rare Japanese import controller, nobody actually made one with more than mushy rubber membranes inside it? So if I did buy something like a NES Advantage and replaced that PCB with one I designed myself to use a tactile switch, it would actually work out quite well for schmups and action / platformer games?

I notice 2600 controllers did have tactile metal dome switches in them, similar to what is in an Xbox Series controller, which actually has the highest rated d-pad of all the d-pads I tested last yet (although in a very suboptimal position on the controller to actually be used for 2D gaming). Any controller you could buy though is probably going to be quite worn out if not straight up broken at this point. All solutions would likely require some kind of modification or restoration.

[Dochartaigh]

If you're looking for a real arcade experience (a la controls), I'm sorry to say nearly every one is severely lacking to me. If you've been to an actual arcade lately (and one that actually keeps their equipment in good working order), or owned a proper new-ish fightstick with parts by companies like Sanwa, Hayabusa, Seimitsu, etc., you'll see what I mean nearly instantly.

Beyond the joystick and button hardware itself, the biggest difference is the physical size. You'll nearly never find a true full size one (say maybe ~14x9" minimum in size) - they're always built on way smaller decks which is totally opposite of an arcade cab.

If you also want to play non-arcade ports on home consoles with one of these 'arcade controllers', I find that a decent amount of moves in console games can't be duplicated (can, but not exactly in the same manner that's been drilled into my head these last 30 years when using the consoles stock controllers) on arcade sticks anyway, so they're sometimes not the greatest choice, even if their buttons/membranes and such don't suck to begin with. Bad example (since you can STILL do this on an arcade stick... just not as comfortably or in the same way) is a simple game like NES's Super Mario Brothers... usually hold (is it "B"?) with the tip of my thumb to run, then towards the thumbs' joint hits "A" to jump... nowhere near cohesive to do that on an arcade-style controller since they buttons are way bigger and way further apart (and using 2x fingers just isn't the same!).

[ulfrinn]

When two sticks from the same manufacture using largely the same interchangeable parts manage to feel different from one another, why would you assume anyone else would assume a console arcade controller that uses a vastly different system of switches, pivots, and parts would feel similar? Nobody here made that claim, nor was it a question asked. The question was whether or not either stock, or through modification with tactile switches if they could be made responsive enough with a short enough throw for schmups and action games. They're also generally lower profile controllers as well, which may make them a lot more comfortable to use on a desk compared to a larger arcade controller.

[bigbadboaz]

Wow. You really know how to wear out your welcome fast with people trying to give you help - whether or not you feel their thoughts are 100% on topic.

[ulfrinn]

How is completely misreading the question helping? I was clarifying my position. I'm not sure why anyone would take offense to that, but okay.

[Dochartaigh]

When two sticks from the same manufacture using largely the same interchangeable parts manage to feel different from one another, why would you assume anyone else would assume a console arcade controller that uses a vastly different system of switches, pivots, and parts would feel similar? Nobody here made that claim, nor was it a question asked. The question was whether or not either stock, or through modification with tactile switches if they could be made responsive enough with a short enough throw for schmups and action games. They're also generally lower profile controllers as well, which may make them a lot more comfortable to use on a desk compared to a larger arcade controller.

Well, for starters, your very first sentence specifically asked "just how bad old home console arcade controllers actually are". Key word being "arcade controllers" i.e. them attempting to be similar to the most common actual arcade hardware in use... So out of the kindness of my heart, taking time out of my day to try to answer that specific question to help you, I wrote a detailed 266 word reply specifically saying how (in a nutshell) I think they're pretty bad (and also to reinforce what bigbadboaz also said too), how they're not like real arcade hardware at all, and listed a couple veins of thought as to why.

You also did not specify if you ONLY wanted to play arcade ports on these home consoles, or also use it for regular non-ports as well, so (again, just trying to possibly help you) I wrote a paragraph about how certain actions you do on a regular non-arcade console controller may be different when attempted on a more arcade-style console controller - just in case that hadn't already crossed your mind.

I could write more as I've modified and shoe-horned in many a real arcade hardware part into a case not designed for it (which will be your problem here with how shallow most of these console arcade-like controller cases are), but honestly it's just not worth my while because of how you replied.

Wow. You really know how to wear out your welcome fast with people trying to give you help - whether or not you feel their thoughts are 100% on topic.

My thoughts exactly. Guess I know better now with this member.

[ulfrinn]

Actually, I didn't say I wanted to play arcade ports at all, or even use these controllers on original hardware. I also already have an arcade controller so I don't have any need to put arcade parts into one. The question was more about the design of their sticks, which do function more similarly to a large d-pad, and there are obviously merits to d-pads when it comes to things like throw distances, and fast reactions.

The mechanics of the design have merit, it just appears to me that except for one or two rare exceptions, their biggest downfalls aren't because they don't work the same way as arcade parts, but likely entirely due to the poor quality parts they used, such as cheap plastic on plastic bearing surfaces in the pivots, and membrane switches/pads.

[gray117]

Honestly, unless you've got a hori microswitch version there's nothing really worth it from a gameplay/feel point of view - get a custom stick and/or some modern remake.

These 'arcade' controllers are otherwise just novelty bits of plastic for the most part, but could be quite nostalgic or platform important.

For what it's worth here's my opinion:


Megadrive
The 6 button Sega Genesis arcade controller (joystick) - is trash, but kind of fun, love playing golden axe with it for some reason ... but you'd never play street fighter with it... Loved more than it's worth.

Nes
NES Advantage - is ok, but you will want to refurb. No nostalgia for me, not sure if there is any specific love for this over the pads.

SNES
Super Advantage - trash - nothing good about this imho ... maybe just someone has sf nostalgia but I'd be suprised if anyone really used this over a pad....
Capom power stick - ok/trash - ... you'd have been better served with this stick, but not a whole lot more.

Sat
Saturn virtua arcade stick - trash - not even got nostalgia for this.
Saturn virtua stick (astro city one) - ace - probably the first honest 'as in the arcade' stick.
Hori fight stick - good - strange but lovely, massive nostalgia for fighting games.
Hori vf stick - good - pretty good... as long as you only need 3 buttons... I really like this stick, but I can't really justify why.

Dreamcast
Arcade stick - Replace stick, ace, otherwise just ok - loved, but, it was only actually good if you modded it.

PS1
Playstation stick - trash - bin lid.
Namco stick - good/ace - strange wonderful stick
Hori fight stick - ace - perfectly good stick
HRAP/tekken 3 stick - good - strange but good.
HRAP (PS2) - ace - getting what you want.

Honourable mention:
Virtua on arcade stick - ok/good - obviously a get if a fan... I didn't bother owning myself.

[jd213]

Bad example (since you can STILL do this on an arcade stick... just not as comfortably or in the same way) is a simple game like NES's Super Mario Brothers... usually hold (is it "B"?) with the tip of my thumb to run, then towards the thumbs' joint hits "A" to jump... nowhere near cohesive to do that on an arcade-style controller since they buttons are way bigger and way further apart (and using 2x fingers just isn't the same!).

I grew up with an Advantage and never had problems using two fingers on a NES SMB game. Prefer to use my fingers whenever I play a platformer or shmup using a pad or portable system, too.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Bad example (since you can STILL do this on an arcade stick... just not as comfortably or in the same way) is a simple game like NES's Super Mario Brothers... usually hold (is it "B"?) with the tip of my thumb to run, then towards the thumbs' joint hits "A" to jump... nowhere near cohesive to do that on an arcade-style controller since they buttons are way bigger and way further apart (and using 2x fingers just isn't the same!).

On an arcade stick, you use the first finger on the action button to run and the second on the jump button to jump. No need to change any finger's placement. It's way more natural indeed than the thumb-for-everything solution. Wall jumping, on the other hand, is usually a pain to do with an arcade stick.

[ulfrinn]

Honestly, unless you've got a hori microswitch version there's nothing really worth it from a gameplay/feel point of view - get a custom stick and/or some modern remake.

These 'arcade' controllers are otherwise just novelty bits of plastic for the most part, but could be quite nostalgic or platform important.

For what it's worth here's my opinion:


Megadrive
The 6 button Sega Genesis arcade controller (joystick) - is trash, but kind of fun, love playing golden axe with it for some reason ... but you'd never play street fighter with it... Loved more than it's worth.

Nes
NES Advantage - is ok, but you will want to refurb. No nostalgia for me, not sure if there is any specific love for this over the pads.

SNES
Super Advantage - trash - nothing good about this imho ... maybe just someone has sf nostalgia but I'd be suprised if anyone really used this over a pad....
Capom power stick - ok/trash - ... you'd have been better served with this stick, but not a whole lot more.

Sat
Saturn virtua arcade stick - trash - not even got nostalgia for this.
Saturn virtua stick (astro city one) - ace - probably the first honest 'as in the arcade' stick.
Hori fight stick - good - strange but lovely, massive nostalgia for fighting games.
Hori vf stick - good - pretty good... as long as you only need 3 buttons... I really like this stick, but I can't really justify why.

Dreamcast
Arcade stick - Replace stick, ace, otherwise just ok - loved, but, it was only actually good if you modded it.

PS1
Playstation stick - trash - bin lid.
Namco stick - good/ace - strange wonderful stick
Hori fight stick - ace - perfectly good stick
HRAP/tekken 3 stick - good - strange but good.
HRAP (PS2) - ace - getting what you want.

Honourable mention:
Virtua on arcade stick - ok/good - obviously a get if a fan... I didn't bother owning myself.

The question I have now in regards to these, specifically to the ones that used mushy membranes inside them... if those membranes were replaced with a clicky tactile/microswitch, giving you a short, precise throw with good feedback in all 8 directions, how much would that simple mod elevate these options?

I just bought an LS-40 to go into the arcade controller I have. Once I have this, I'm going to challenge myself to play with it for a month, playing all types of retro. action games, 2D platformers, schmups, racing/driving, all of it, and see how well I like it. If for some reason I'm still not satisfied with how it performs, my next step is to start looking at sticks mechanically much different from arcade joysticks in each of something with the characteristics I am looking for. Since most of those early retro console arcade controllers functioned the same, the cheapest, and probably simplest one to get and mod for clicky mechanical switches will be the 2600 controller, and if that is satisfactory, I'll be building an entirely new arcade controller based off those mechanic principals.