1st loops (changed ftw)

[icycalm]

I am really interested to see what y'all think about this. Are there many among you who love them? For most people they are not an issue, because they never get that far anyway. But consider the fact that the developers spend time making them--time which could have been spent on the first loop which everyone plays.

I am very much against them. I believe that if a second loop offers something that the first one does not, then that something--whatever it is--should have been added to the normal game in the first place.

What do you think?

[gavin19]

For most people they are not an issue, because they never get that far anyway.

Just as you say, it wouldn't concern the majority of players becuase they never get to the second loop ( aside from cheating one way or another ). I suppose if a 2nd loop did have anything extra I'm guessing it would involve increased difficulty and so again would likely be of little interest to the average shmupper. What does a 2nd loop usually involve anyway, I've never made it that far on a shmup that had one.
Along the same lines, I do disagree with extras being unlocked only via a 1cc, a la Shiki 2. I love playing this game but a 1cc is out of the question for me so I'll never get to use said extra options. Sorry if I strayed a bit there.

[Frederik]

2nd loops are the ultimate test. I think a 2nd loop only makes sense if you not only 1cc the first one, but did remarkably well - so there`s room to improve left. But if you just BARELY 1cc it and then the second loop starts, you might feel that you didn`t finish it at all.

I never understood why Gradius loops nearly infinitely (Gradius III/ARC maxes out at 256 if I am not wrong). 2nd loops are out of question for me so I don`t really care about them. I`d rather appreciate something like a "Ultra" mode so the ones that cleared the first loop know the finished it in default.

From what I´ve played so far, Progear had the nastiest 2nd loop in which you additionally restart at the beginning of the level if you die (I saw it via cheat file).

[benj]

I don't like them either. They take away the sense of accomplishment. I want to enter my initials and see the title screen after beating the game, not do the same thing all over again. It's especially bad with Gradius, which loops infinitely. When I reach the 2nd loop I usually just stop playing.

[Twiddle]

If the player rocks enough to extend the game by that much why not

[Shalashaska]

I like the idea of 2nd or multiple loops as it gives the player a little something extra to shoot for if they master the 'regular' game. I don't see why they would be a bad idea because having options is always good.

And having Hibachi or Doom on the first loop would cause a lot more consoles/pcb's/superguns/whatever to be thrown out the window.

[Valgar]

The second loop of CAVE games is for players who want to wrestle a bear naked. You can't incorporate URA loop suicide bullets or DOOM into the main game otherwise you guys would get your ass raped and then cry about it.

There is still a feeling of accomplishment, and more so than just the first loop, once you beat someone like DOOM.

[Blade]

I say it's good to have 2nd Loops, but also, if you're going to go that far, include a sort of OMAKE mode or Simulation mode like what Dai Ou Jou has so that people can at least make an attempt at enemies like Hibachi.

The Simulation Mode should have the option to Tweak Powerup Settings, Enemy Difficulty, Bullets, Chain Meter etc...mainly cuz people like to just blow stuff up without having to worry about Rank or where they're at in a level. A no-bullet mode for Chain Practice is nice too, but at the same time, just for the heck of it, if they meet certain conditions...even in No-Bullet Mode, that they can check out the 2nd Loop at least in terms of enemy numbers and arranged scoring system.

[Valgar]

No that is weak. The reason DOOM is so badass is because only a few people actually battle him. It losses everything when anyone can enter cheats and fight him for "laughs".

[Icarus]

I'm not usually fussy about looping games, as the extra loops provide a bit of a challenge (and a higher score). I could do without multiloops in some shmups though, as I tend to prefer spending the evening playing many credits for practice, as opposed to playing the same credit for several hours (Gradii and Parodii are the main culprits here).

[howmuchkeefe]

I thought my copy of DOJ came with a big black guy who kicked me in the nuts every time I fucked up, but it turns out he was just some crazy dude who followed me home from the post office.

[BulletMagnet]

Infinite loops I'm not particularly fond of, for reasons already mentioned by others here, but a limited amount of loops doesn't bother me much...in some cases, in fact, the game gives you the option to only play for one loop if you want.

[landshark]

Ack. I voted for the wrong one. I clicked "no". I meant yes.

I really don't care either way. There are some games that would be crazy if they had a 2nd loop (Dimahoo for example). I'm glad some have just a single.

But others are fun with 1 or more extra loops (Gradius V).

[J-Manic]

I don't care for them that much, but I will play the 2nd loop just to test myself. But there's already difficulty settings that you can adjust before you even start playing. So why not just create extra levels instead of having the player play thru the same 6-8 levels all over again?....even if there's added stuff in the 2nd loop! It's still the same old levels you just saw.

[Frederik]

I don't care for them that much, but I will play the 2nd loop just to test myself. But there's already difficulty settings that you can adjust before you even start playing. So why not just create extra levels instead of having the player play thru the same 6-8 levels all over again?....even if there's added stuff in the 2nd loop! It's still the same old levels you just saw.

That`s what I think to. While the more standard player struggles enough with the regular run, skilled players have to play the game once before the challenge starts for them.

On the other hand, seing superplays of japanese player in Gradius V defeating the level 1 boss that has TWO heads is a nice thing. I wouldn`t want to play till I reach Loop 11, though. The game is long enough.

And yeah, medium players should be able to enter their initials because they SURVIVED the first loop , not because they DIED in the second one. The sense of accomplishment is indeed different.

[system11]

I voted against - people should simply be offered higher difficulty modes, directly selectable. Then operators can set the PCB to normal (or 'normal' for their location), and really skilled people could select a tougher game.

It's a hollow victory indeed when you 1cc a game (not happened for a long time for me) and it starts at level 1 again.

[ill6]

None issue, never get there. Don't like the idea though especially where the game has some kind of notional plot.

[sven666]

infinite loops suck, one or two depending on the lenght/difficulty of the game is ok.

adding a second loop must mean added secrets tho, otherwise its just weak..

[Smraedis]

2nd loops are a good test of skill, and can be really annoying too

the thing I don't like about them is that they make the game go on for too long, and if you make a mistake, you have to start back at the beginning of the first loop again..

[mice]

For me, completing a game is the goal. So I feel second loops is just a pain...

...that something--whatever it is--should have been added to the normal game...

I agree. But maybe they're out of resources (like mem space) and a second loop is what they can cram in there, or something.

[MSZ]

As a Konami shmups fan, I say LONG LIVE INFINITE LOOPS!!!!

[Shatterhand]

You know, as I am developing a shmup, doing a 2nd loop just seems logical. While developing the patterns and stuff, I just feel like I could do it a lot harder and still doable (And make them harder is just a lot more fun ). Problem is, I want the game to be fair. So, adding a 2nd loop is logical.

But looking at a player point of view, I personally DON'T like the idea of a 2nd loop, for the same reasons stated above.

Usually difficulty levels just add a little bit of difficulty. 2nd loops are like hell breaking loose, it's usually a lot harder than just playing on "hard" level.

Also, I always found annoying in arcade games that, after I finish the game, I just lose my credit. I always found this very unfair. I always felt like "Heck, now that I played so well, WHY DO I LOSE MY CREDIT?" (Yeah, it's cheap, but a child is usually cheap, and I played most of my arcade games when I was young )

So I think the best thing to do is, after the player finishes the game, he should be able to put his initials, see the GAME OVER screen and THEN a new game starts, with the player having 0 points (and all his lives back, maybe) and a much higher difficulty level.

In a home game, it just should unlock a "ultra" mode or something.

[Frederik]

Also, I always found annoying in arcade games that, after I finish the game, I just lose my credit. I always found this very unfair. I always felt like "Heck, now that I played so well, WHY DO I LOSE MY CREDIT?" (Yeah, it's cheap, but a child is usually cheap, and I played most of my arcade games when I was young )

Yeah! After 1cc both DDP loops the game should spew out buckets of coins. And if you 1cc DDP Campaign Editon, the cab should open the lid and release the PCB to you as reward

Thinking about it, the combination of shmup arcades and coin games could be a match in hell, seing how heavy some people are addicted to gambling. Well this way you actually could get rich

[Minzoku]

I thought my copy of DOJ came with a big black guy who kicked me in the nuts every time I fucked up, but it turns out he was just some crazy dude who followed me home from the post office.

lol

[Where's your post office, South D.C.?? ]

[SuperGrafx]

2nd loops are great, provided they at least offer some variation from the 1st loop. The recent Under Defeat had a good 2nd loop setup where the stages are reversed on top of being visually different.

In contrast, Radirgy could have used a 2nd loop IMO. It ends a bit too soon.

[cigsthecat]

Infinite loops are bs. I prefer very difficult 1 round games, but 2nd loops are needed for the japanese players.

I don't really mind 2 round games though.

[Twiddle]

A game that could have benefitted from a second loop was Battle Garegga

[BulletMagnet]

What, the first one wasn't hard enough for you?

[nZero]

I don't like the concept so much, for a lot of games it seems like a cheap way to gain length. Just having a second loop for the hell of it, especially if the only change is something like aimed bullets released by destroyed enemies or more aggressive patterns, just seems lame. Give me an ending and be done with it if you're not adding anything of substance, and then let me start a game on a higher difficulty if I want. I consider those games beaten after the single loop clear. Same for most infinite looping games, except for Gradius which can just go die in a hole somewhere.

However, multi-round games are fine by me as long as the additional loops are there to conclude the story somehow. Under Defeat was cool with the reversed levels, different seasons, new artwork and so forth. Stuff like DoDonPachi with the new final boss and the relatively steep entry requirements for second loop are fine too. Toaplan games push it sometimes but at least there was usually some limited incentive to go through a handful of loops in say Zero Wing or Batsugun.

[Twiddle]

What, the first one wasn't hard enough for you?

nah nothing to do with that

i'm sadistic and love to see the "OH, GOD DAMNIT" for a player finishing the first loop to go through the damn thing all over again with about double the rank rate