Devil May Cry [PS2] + R2VKMF: Polygonal Action Daishingeki

[BIL]

You know my style. Win beautifully, got it?



A place for killing motherfuckers in full 3D glory, its spiritual anchor being Hideki Kamiya's 2001 neoclassique. Have a fun! Will beef up OP later. Run 2 The Vanishing Point Killing Motherfuckers.

[copy-paster]

PS2 3D Castlevania looks like boring shit. I tried Curse of Darkness on PCSX2 and boy the game has 3x dead airs than R-Type Final stage 1, rooms are huge but there's like 2 enemies onscreen WTF. Walk animation really sluggish and very slow too, Hector takes 10 years to run over 100 meters.

[trap15]

Nothing will ever beat Spikeout, but I must admit I am not especially versed in the genre. Need to play more of these types of games.

[BIL]

PS2 3D Castlevania looks like boring shit. I tried Curse of Darkness on PCSX2 and boy the game has 3x dead airs than R-Type Final stage 1, rooms are huge but there's like 2 enemies onscreen WTF. Walk animation really sluggish and very slow too, Hector takes 10 years to run over 100 meters.

Lament Of Innocence (or simply "Castlevania" in Japan - "MUCHI ACTION GAME," informs the back cover ) is a tragic case of a first-rate 3D combat engine stuck in boxy, flat, repetitive maps straight outta 1992. It's a crying shame that IGA was so busy slagging off the N64 Castlevanias while tonguing Kamiya's bung, he completely ignored the soaring lethal heights of KCET's games and turned in a pancake. Combine their perilous stage design with LOI's crisp battling, and you'd have a genuinely strong 3D portrayal of the classic CV Treachery Platformer.

Having said all this, I still like LOI. That combat engine really is DMC-calibre; it took a while for the rest of the industry to catch up to Kamiya, and this was one of the first to rival its precision face-shattering violence, as well as the joy of shaving past lethal blows with precision evades. It's a fine challenge too, at least on its upper "@crazy" difficulty - nothing too face-melting, just a good workout for the super-sharp controls.

And despite the criminally flat castle design, it actually does pack in a pretty entertaining Easter Egg hunt for the 100% map completion.

As always, Michiru Yamane elevates proceedings with another classic OST, haunting and catchy with an intriguing shade of oldschool electronica alongside yearning ballads and thunderous boss BGMs.

It's a satisfactory game that could've been so much more. A good friend who worked at Konami Hawaii at the time had a great story... said the higher-ups brought in a final master copy, and he innocently exclaimed "Wow, the controls are amazing! I can't wait to see the finished level designs!" He almost got fired, apparently. I dunno if it's true, but I like to think so - he was a very trustworthy chap, and that's just too perfect a reaction to LOI. I was the same when I saw the *COUGH COUGH* "early preview" shots in EGM, which turned out to be identical to the finished product like a year later.

[Rastan78]

I won't say it's anything close to a masterpiece, but Astral Chain is worth a look. I have a feeling if it jumped to PC and/or PS4 more people would still be talking about it.

Have to admit to getting about 3/4 through and moving on to other things. Not bc I wasn't enjoying it, just IRL stuff.

The key is you can't go in expecting an arcade game. This isn't Bayonetta or Vanquish. If anything it shares more in common structurally with the Batman Arkham games. For better or worse there are long portions where you might be running to the vanishing point to find toilet paper and not to kill mofos.

I would say it's greater than the sum of it's parts. The combat (while fiddly and comes with a steep learning curve to manage the controls and all options well) is by far the most exciting and polished aspect. Seeing Platinum branch into stealth, exploration, collectathon, detective sequences with clues etc. feels a little more B tier in quality, but the game is all the more rich bc of those elements. At least nothing is handled as poorly as the motorcycle or Space Harrier style segments in Bayonetta.

Astral Chain seems like it might age well. As in people will completely forget about it, but then in 15 years you'll hear people talking about how it has attained some cult hidden gem type status. But who knows.

[Air Master Burst]

Oh, I guess there was one.

Carry on then!

ETA: Here's my list and recommendation from my less impressively named attempt:

GET YOUR HARDCORE 3D ACTION GAMES HERE! HOT HARD AND HEAVY!

You want CHARACTER ACTION? STEP ON UP! We have:

FLASHY:

-GODHAND!
-Devil May Cry
-Bayonetta
-MGR: Revengeance
-Otogi (my personal favorite)
-MOTHERFUCKING NINJA BLADE

CRUNCHY:

-Ninja Gaiden
-Shinobi (PS2) and Nightshade
-God of War
-Dragon's Dogma
-Nier
-Heavenly Sword

MECH SHIT:

-Zone of the Enders
-A.C.E.
-Metal Wolf Chaos
-Armored Core
-Virtua On

SHIT WITH GUNS:

-Vanquish
-Dead To Rights
-Stranglehold
-Max Payne
-Wet

WEIRD SHIT THAT COUNTS:

-Asura's Wrath
-Wonderful 101
-Warframe

Note that this is far from an exhaustive list, but it should serve as a good start for anyone interested in the genre. I was also unsure as to whether 3D Beat-Em-Ups like Urban Reign or shit like Cannon Spike have their own threads yet, so I basically stuck to pure 3D Character Action dopeness. Also, I don't really have the patience for fancy images and stuff, but if someone else wants to make a better one of these with all that shit I'll gladly join you there. (LOL I WAS A PROPHET!)

To start things off, I would like to begin with a recommendation for FROM's Otogi: Myth of Demons, which was an OG XBOX exclusive. For a long time it was only playable on an actual OG Xbox, though it has since been made backwards compatible and is available on the Xbox store right now for an incredibly reasonable $20 USD.

First things first: the actual combat is so floaty you can spend entire fights airborne despite having no inherent flight ability, and yet your strong attacks hit enemies so hard they'll go flying hundreds of feet before crashing into a building and collapsing the wall around them. Super fun!

The graphics are very good for the era, and some of the levels are still legitimately gorgeous thanks to FROM's uncanny knack for settings with ATMOSPHERE. The soundtrack is very good as well, although definitely a departure from the more PUMP YOU UP genre standards. Both are aided immensely by Otogi's focus on traditional Japanese folklore and mythology.

Otogi also has the distinction of containing the single finest Character Action boss fight I've ever experienced. The duel with the Crimson King is just an absolute banger, smashing each other all over around and through a shrine in a bamboo forest.

ETA: updated list.

[Blinge]

isnt Otogi supposed to be mind-numbingly easy?
or otherwise dull ?

[BIL]

Nah it's just right I'd say. A lot magazines bitched about it being too hard BITD, oddly enough.

I would say its main appeal are the otherworldly physics and genuinely haunting Heian fantasy atmosphere - it really hasn't been approached since, imo - but the underlying chassis is more than solid. A trip worth taking.

[Air Master Burst]

isnt Otogi supposed to be mind-numbingly easy?
or otherwise dull ?

It won't wreck your shit like Ninja Gaiden but it puts up a pretty good fight. There's a reason I put it in the "FLASHY" section as opposed to the "CRUNCHY" one.

ETA: Here's some more good ones I just remembered:

FLASHY:

Shinobi (PS2) and Nightshade
No More Heroes

OTHER WEIRD SHIT THAT PROBABLY FITS HERE:

Asura's Wrath
Warframe
Wonderful 101

[Blinge]

(you'd do well not to dismiss all of From outright, sir. try sekiro)
(edit: oh sorry, you did actually play the games. nevermind then)

Ahh okay. I haven't xbawx hardware so sadly I can't play it.
unless og xbox emulation is a thing now ?

[drauch]

unless og xbox emulation is a thing now ?

Getting better, but still a ton of stuff that isn't supported/has issues.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Rising Zan: The Samurai Gunman definitely counts, too.

Too lazy to repost all this stuff that's in the Bayonetta thread but suffice to say as perhaps the most Bayo-obsessed forum member I comfortably answer any question about the game. Youtube channel has PP run of NSIC without that restart exploit everyone uses, etc.

What doesn't count for this thread I wonder? Ranged combat can certainly be integral to a character action game (Vanquish certainly is both 3D character action as well as third person shooter) but where's the line? Do RPG / grindy elements disqualify a game?

• I think Armored Core is sufficiently action oriented with modest shop elements that it could qualify.

• EDF 4.1 is absolutely NOT something I'd put in here. As much as I love the game, the gacha element for weapon drops and the armor (max hp) grind should probably disqualify it. As fun as dashing around the battlefield as a Fencer is, I think of it purely as a third person shooter. Same goes I think for many of the Dynasty Warriors games. They're 3D beat 'em up lites and mechanically are meant to be simpler so you can effortless cleave down hordes of enemies.

• Transformers: Devastation is also absolutely on the list as possibly Platinum's greatest game, but its weapon system does have a bit of gatcha elements.

• Doom Eternal absolutely counts as a character action game. It's a rare example of a first person one, but the dodging, the weapon swapping bonuses, the item pickups, the comboing, it's basically a first person DMC.

• I don't know if From games like Souls have too many RPG elements to apply, but Sekiro at the very least definitely does. It's very much "From does DMC" since its levelling elements basically only apply to your first playthrough and comes down to "what order would you like to unlock things?". The real meat and potatoes is in NG+ once you have most/all of your skills and abilities unlocked when you can really learn the combat system.

Wonderful 101

Definitely counts. The almost top-down camera, zoomed out perspective is unusual for the genre but it's absolutely a 3D beat 'em up in the same vein as many of Platinum's games.

Astral Chain seems like it might age well.

It has dodge offsetting, which is always super fun.

[Air Master Burst]

What doesn't count for this thread I wonder? Ranged combat can certainly be integral to a character action game (Vanquish certainly is both 3D character action as well as third person shooter) but where's the line?

As far as gun-focused games go, I tend to draw the line as soon as aim becomes more important than movement. Vanquish, Stranglehold, and Dead To Rights 1 all feel right at home in this thread. I think Max Payne is probably getting close the limit here, but it's pretty subjective by person.

RPG stuff is harder. I personally wouldn't put most Souls games here since you can usually just level your way past most of the challenge. Then again, I did list Dragon's Dogma, so... shrug emoji?

ETA: I almost listed Armored Core, feels like it should be here. Also probably Virtual On?

[Rastan78]

Anyone ever play Conan 360/PS3? It was one of those B grade licensed games that was way more fun than it had any right to be.

At first it was like yeah shitty GoW ripoff published by THQ? This should be a solid 5/10 jankfest.Then you find out the combat system is actually well done with good variety in combo routes and a convincing heft to attacks.

Would it steal the throne from GoW or Ninja Gaiden? No way, but it was a perfect pulpy weekend rental. Hell it's worth a quick play just for the corny in game dialogue.

[BIL]

What doesn't count for this thread I wonder? Ranged combat can certainly be integral to a character action game (Vanquish certainly is both 3D character action as well as third person shooter) but where's the line? Do RPG / grindy elements disqualify a game?

I think we should leave it fairly loose for now - I was definitely thinking of stuff like Vanquish, ZOE and Armored Core as on-topic, too. Guns, missiles, and lockon lasers are no more of a disqualifier than they'd be in the Scrolling Action thread; neither is long-ranged combat, even ranging over vast distances, as long as it comes down to a comparable format of intense realtime action.



Teh blue bird flies awaaay~

The GBA's ZOE: Fist Of Mars, a TBS, wouldn't qualify, much like Assault Suits Valken 2 (also a TBS) wouldn't for Scrolling Action. Though you can always wangle 'em in on a tangent - that's what I'd do!

For more ARPG-styled stuff, I'm ok with the Souls games being here tbh; while there's a huge scope for grinding, buffing, etc etc, they can still be played as full-blooded 3D action games; similar to how SOTN is welcome in the Scrolling Action thread. Bloodborne in particularly almost forces you to go balls-out and fight or die, there's very little place to hide behind armour or buffs in that one, and the best response to an incoming sword is an ice-cold bullet in the attacker's eye followed by a monstrous Visceral Attack.

Only thing I'd add there is to be considerate with spoilers for longer-form games like those, as they tend to be loved as much for story and narrative as their action.

At the absolute extreme, I was thinking of stuff like Ace Combat, analogous to After Burner in the Scrolling Action thread. As in, while it's technically out of bounds, if it provides comparably white-knuckle action in its designated dimension, you're free to work it in as you see fit - I'd much rather read an excellent post about a 3D flight combat sim, comparable to the intensity of the thread's anchors, than have it vanish into the depths of some other topic.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

As far as gun-focused games go, I tend to draw the line as soon as aim becomes more important than movement.

This makes sense to me. Mobility is an integral part of character action games; if you can just RPG element your way to victory and tank hits it feels like you're talking a different genre.

ETA: I almost listed Armored Core, feels like it should be here. Also probably Virtual On?

Virtual On feels much more of a VS fighter than character action game, but I can't actually give a logical argument why that is given the movement is really in the same vein as Armored Core's arena mode. Yeah, I could see it being included.

Another game for the list: JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Golden Wind for PS2. It's a weird mix of puzzle game and 3D beat 'em up where you play individual scenes from the manga as various characters. Recreating events from the manga ups your health, and you can eventually unlock a mode that lets you play as nearly anyone in any scene.

I'd much rather read an excellent post about a 3D flight combat sim, comparable to the intensity of the thread's anchors, than have it vanish into the depths of some other topic.

In the same vein, I was thinking Omega Boost might well fit too.

[BIL]

Yeah, Omega Boost could definitely go here, it's simply a more overtly arcadey sort of mech action (much like the Spikeout series is 3D brawling for cabs). It's definitely not a rail shooter per se, with only a couple of interlude stages where you're actually being directed anywhere; 90% of the game is open space / upper atmosphere battle, with the occasional complication of a ground mission which basically forces you to keep your mech right side-up with a tap of "scan."

[Mortificator]

Lament Of Innocence (or simply "Castlevania" in Japan - "MUCHI ACTION GAME," informs the back cover ) is a tragic case of a first-rate 3D combat engine stuck in boxy, flat, repetitive maps straight outta 1992. It's a crying shame that IGA was so busy slagging off the N64 Castlevanias while tonguing Kamiya's bung, he completely ignored the soaring lethal heights of KCET's games and turned in a pancake. Combine their perilous stage design with LOI's crisp battling, and you'd have a genuinely strong 3D portrayal of the classic CV Treachery Platformer.

Having said all this, I still like LOI. That combat engine really is DMC-calibre; it took a while for the rest of the industry to catch up to Kamiya, and this was one of the first to rival its precision face-shattering violence, as well as the joy of shaving past lethal blows with precision evades. It's a fine challenge too, at least on its upper "@crazy" difficulty - nothing too face-melting, just a good workout for the super-sharp controls.

And despite the criminally flat castle design, it actually does pack in a pretty entertaining Easter Egg hunt for the 100% map completion.

As always, Michiru Yamane elevates proceedings with another classic OST, haunting and catchy with an intriguing shade of oldschool electronica alongside yearning ballads and thunderous boss BGMs.

I'm in 100% agreement, of course. I replayed Lament last winter and had my share of close calls and desperate fights before I KILLED THE NIGHT.

Curse of Darkness unfortunately made 3D CV much slower, much grindier, and mutated the DMC-style combat into something closer to Dynasty Warriors.

Rising Zan: The Samurai Gunman definitely counts, too.

Oh yes. Proto-DMC in a cowboy hat. Zan even has his own equivalents of a devil trigger and stinger.

3D Beat-Em-Ups like Urban Reign

I'd actually put God Hand in this category.

It's kind of interesting how, like biology, entities that seem related can have very different lineages. Like how run & guns could reasonably be assumed to be a platformer branch, but turn out to have a lot of shmup DNA. I've sometimes seen stylish/character action games be described as a 3D version of beat 'em ups, yet they're really descended from 3D action-adventures. That's why tool collection and item gating were seen strongly in earlier installments: DMC1, God of War 1, Ninja Gaiden Black... While belt-scrollers went down a path that let to Dynamite Deka and Yakuza

[Sima Tuna]

My name for this genre is HARD 3d ACTION. Both because it makes my PP ROCK HARD and also because "hard action" is more inclusive than "character action." There are a lot of HARD ACTION games that don't feature excessive combo crafting or an emphasis on being stylish. But they're still hard like Ryu Hayabusa's abs after a night of pumping iron and slaying demons.

My list of HARD ACTION games based on what I can recall from memory:

Devil May Cry
Devil May Cry 3
God Hand
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry 4
Ninja Gaiden Black
Ninja Gaiden 2
Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge (original NG3 does NOT qualify)
God of War (ps2+psp games)
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Shinobi (ps2)
Rygar (ps2)
Anarchy Reigns (if you play campaign)
Vanquish
Platinum's Korra fits, although I think the game sucks
Transformers Devastation

Sekiro can go in here, hell all the Fromsoft stuff can if you want. I just don't think of it as quite the same philosophy, especially the games that have a heavy focus on leveling and obtaining stat-altering gear. Nioh has the combat of a HARD ACTION game, but uses randomized lootsplosions and other rpg/diablo elements.

Zone of the Enders, especially 2, plays very much like a HARD ACTION game. I'm more conflicted on Armored Core, because of its strong emphasis on crafting, tinkering, upgrading and modifying. The combat is all action but the downtime is very much so.

[BIL]

I replayed Lament last winter and had my share of close calls and desperate fights before I KILLED THE NIGHT.

Why kill the fight when you can KILL THE NIGHT?

[Lethe]

What makes God Hand a FLASHY and not a CRUNCHY? It is a hybrid, but much more biased towards making good reads than hitting all the buttons.

I really should get around to playing Shinobi PS2...

[Sima Tuna]

What makes God Hand a FLASHY and not a CRUNCHY? It is a hybrid, but much more biased towards making good reads than hitting all the buttons.

I really should get around to playing Shinobi PS2...

Shinobi ps2 is well worth playing. It was my gateway drug into the genre. Even before Devil May Cry 3 SE stole my heart, I was ninja flipping, wall running and dash kill-chaining in Shinobi.

[BIL]

Always meant to make a nice GIF of that first Moritsune intro.

Worth noting that only the original NTSCU release of Shinobi includes the Super difficulty tier. After considerable outcry from wieners, the EU and JP ones deleted it, while instituting a new Easy mode.

It's a shame, as Super is where the game's uniquely arcadey chaining system really catches on fire. You can just about coast through Normal and Hard while on nodding terms with it. On Super, your sword is so goddamn hungry, only the biggest, bloodiest slaughterings will keep it off your ass, and since enemies have more HP and are more aggressive, this means a lot more deliberate ghost-arounds and backstabbings (2x damage, IIRC), as well as use of the guard-breaking kick.

It's a simple, elegant and intense system that doubles as a decent scoring mechanic - it's just a shame the game's stages weren't tightened up nearer to arcade-spec, as some can feel a bit overlong. Still, the action is more than good enough to support it. Pacing has an uncanny similarity to Crazy Taxi's, I always found... bursts of frantic-yet-precise action, punctuated by big flashy paydays, before rocketing off to the next big slaughter.

[Air Master Burst]

What makes God Hand a FLASHY and not a CRUNCHY? It is a hybrid, but much more biased towards making good reads than hitting all the buttons.

I really should get around to playing Shinobi PS2...

This is pretty legit as it can easily qualify as both, but because of the way the auto difficulty tuning works I get the impression they were more concerned with making me feel like a total badass than just straight up kicking my ass.

ETA: Also the RIDICULOUS number of available moves, some of very dubious utility, all able to be strung together in just about any order you'd like. Once you get the combat rhythm down you can breeze through it with the right combo, even with the difficulty meter maxed. It's mostly just about trying different cool-looking combos.

[Sima Tuna]

I forgot a couple of games. Bujingai: The Forsaken City and Genji: Dawn of the Samurai.

I never played Bujingai, but Genji is one of my favorite ps2 games. Today, it would probably be called a Devil May Cry (1) ripoff. You play as either Yoshitsune or Benkei and battle mythological demons and magical samurai. In gameplay and atmosphere both, it's rather close to the Onimusha series too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf7D1Fifb8M

Music and visuals in Genji are unparalleled for ps2. The only two problems with Genji are its short length (no big deal) and relative lack of difficulty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=712Mzzb_4AQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRoeyQAYIlk

^Dis fukkin music bro

If we were to trace the history of this genre back to its earliest examples, I think it'd be fair to cite Onimusha along with Devil May Cry 1. Onimusha has tank controls, but it began to shift away from survival horror and towards pure action. It was never as "scary" as Resident Evil, and always had a parry/riposte mechanic that rewarded skill. Onimusha 2 was the high point of the series for me. Polished tank controls (yes they exist,) married to a meaty adventure and challenging boss fights.

[Air Master Burst]

Genji is an unfortunate case, because the sequel (which was actually pretty fun too) got memed into oblivion for the hilariously inept E3 presentation before it even got released. Now the only thing anyone remembers about either game is GIANT ENEMY CRAB!

Onimusha was so fucking good. I really wish they'd kept making those.

[Lethe]

ETA: Also the RIDICULOUS number of available moves, some of very dubious utility, all able to be strung together in just about any order you'd like. Once you get the combat rhythm down you can breeze through it with the right combo, even with the difficulty meter maxed. It's mostly just about trying different cool-looking combos.

Well sure, if you're fighting one dude and have the luxury of that. On KMS Hard there's almost no way to crowd control that doesn't involve a counter hit, besides something like Rocket Upper poking, or just low-profile cheesing everything.

I'd actually be very interested to hear how tough GH KMS is considered to be among Aktion Hardgamers. I don't have the requisite skill/experience to judge. The resources/dynamic difficulty seem to add a lot of noise; not a blatant cheat option a la DMC items or such, but certainly something the game plays completely differently without.

[Sima Tuna]

It's a real shame Onimusha got canned by Capcom, but I think they were tired of the series under-performing. Onimusha could definitely have been big if it had its "RE4" moment. The ingredients for success were there, but the final game in the series didn't have the right stuff to go mainstream. If a game of Onimusha 2's quality had come out with the updated Oni 4 engine and controls, then maybe.

Capcom is largely to blame for starting this weird subgenre in the first place, so I guess it's understandable they wanted to focus on more popular series at the time.

I thought of a couple more titles. Viewtiful Joe is on that borderline. It could easily go in either Poly Action Dashingeki or Scrolling Action Monogatari. But I'll leave it to Scrolling Action for now, since it scrolls and isn't 3d. Maximo is an interesting case. Ghosts to Glory feels like more of a straight 3d action platformer. Army of Zin introduced a weird devil trigger-ish mechanic. Maybe the games would have gone full PAD given another entry.

Mark of Kri is a hack and slash, but it's a pretty jank one. Up to you if you think it qualifies. After all, the genre is limited to only good games. Mark of Kri and Rise of the Kasai aren't exactly terrible, but they feel quite limited and button-smashy compared to the other games in this subgenre.

Musou games are another can of worms, and I'm gonna throw out my 2cents and say they don't count. Musou is about objective-based incidental carnage. Different mindset entirely and the movesets reflect that. Musou games are full of wide, sweeping AoEs meant to cleave dozens of opponents with each swing. 1vs1 battles are rare and the engine often doesn't handle them well. Depends on the game though.

However! Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage is not a musou game! How can this be? Yes, it is a """warriors""" game made by Koei, but it was a very experimental one. Its design is quite comparable to a 3d beat em up or character action title. I made a whole series of videos about it years ago, but the game is made primarily as a single-player experience. The systems are built mostly around Kenshiro and his toolset, and bosses reflect this. Boss design is far more intricate than you will see in most other Koei "warriors" games. Stages are not sandboxes full of baddies to smash, but have direction, optional objectives and secret scoring opportunities. Ken's Rage was savaged when it released, but most who did so lacked basic understanding of the game's mechanics. I'll effortpost some long shit about it later.

[Air Master Burst]

Well sure, if you're fighting one dude and have the luxury of that. On KMS Hard there's almost no way to crowd control that doesn't involve a counter hit, besides something like Rocket Upper poking, or just low-profile cheesing everything.

I'd actually be very interested to hear how tough GH KMS is considered to be among Aktion Hardgamers. I don't have the requisite skill/experience to judge.

I remember it being pretty fucking hard! Took me most of the summer of 06 to pull off. Apparently the Japanese version has a novelty "useless" roulette attack that doesn't make the sign fall off, but no idea if it actually helps or not as I never had a modded PS2.

ETA: actually it was the summer of 07 before I left for the Army.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage is not a musou game!

The sequel is much closer to a traditional musou game, with attacks having far more range and sweep to them, feeling far more like they mow down crowds. It's kind of a guilty pleasure of mine; I'm not sure it's actually a good game or not, but musou flavored Hokuto no Ken is amusing enough for me not to care I guess. As far as I know, there's lots of people who prefer the first game over the sequel because the first game is so unique and unlike a musou game.

On KMS Hard there's almost no way to crowd control that doesn't involve a counter hit, besides something like Rocket Upper poking, or just low-profile cheesing everything.

It's also true on Normal once you hit level Die. I think GH could have used a 4th difficulty; make Normal cap at rank 3, make Hard the one that can go from rank 1 to Die, and Very Hard the one permanently at Die. The problem is that enemies feel radically different at level Die, to the point where you're playing a different game, and there's no real effective way to rank control the game as dodging well rapidly ups the meter (burning roulettes to grovel repeatedly doesn't feel that effective, and also frankly isn't fun). Specifically, many moves have useful properties such as launch, juggle, etc, that no longer apply to enemies at level Die on normal hits. You gotta fish for counter hits to get those suddenly. Crowd control in GH is already difficult as it is and learning to do so effectively requires serious execution compared to other 3D beat 'em ups, even before level Die.

I enjoy God Hand, but I sometimes wonder if it's really a very good game. The dodging being on the right stick as opposed to shoulder buttons you can keep your fingers on is something I'm not fond of, especially in a game where dodge timing's so tight, especially on Hard. You could move a couple functions to the right stick up + down such as god hand unleash and taunt. Or, move some of the attack buttons to the shoulder buttons so your thumb can remain on the right stick except when moving it to press one of the face buttons to taunt/roulette/unleash. Feels weird having to move my thumb between the stick to dodge and attack; I don't like the delay it adds. It's not 3/10 like that infamous IGN review, but it's sufficiently weird enough that I don't consider it like, the pinnacle of the genre. It's fun, strange, but sufficiently difficult and janky that I absolutely can understand it not having been a commercial success.

Unfortunately, emulating it adds considerable input lag, and the game has no remappable controls (something to dream about in this thread I guess), so I don't have any way of trying to tweak it to my tastes.