Mega Drive Beep! 1995 Final Japanese STG Rankings

[Sengoku Strider]

Japan's Mega Drive Beep! transitioned to being Sega Saturn Magazine in 1995, but still kept up Mega Drive & Game Gear coverage. They published a 'readers race' in each issue, which was an ongoing ranking of favourite games as voted by the readership. In fall '95 they published the final Mega Drive results (note the sad tear on the cool guy wolf), with 520 games including Mega CD & Mega 32X.




In the interest of posterity and just because I love stuff like this, I've translated the results for the 'shooting games,' as they classed them. The number next to the title is their place in the overall rankings:

1) 2 After Burner Complete 32X
2) 4 Space Harrier 32X
3) 8 Silpheed
4) 24 Battle Mania Daiginjo
5) 30 Thunder Hawk (CD)
6) 32 Thunder Force IV
7) 37 Slap Fight MD
8) 40 Super Fantasy Zone
9) 42 Stellar Assault 32X
10) 54 Musha Aleste
11) 62 Thunder Force III
12) 64 V-V
13) 74 Soul Star (CD)
14) 94 Battle Mania
15) 101 Chelnov
16) 103 Ex Ranza
17) 104 Night Striker (CD)
18) 113 Panorama Cotton
19) 118 Star Blade (CD)
20) 119 Keiō Yūgekitai (Keiō Flying Squadron) (CD)
21) 130 Wing Commander (CD)
22) 147 Same! Same! Same! (Fire Shark)
23) 157 Twinkle Tale
24) 180 After Burner II
25) 198 Darius II
26) 200 Zero Wing
27) 203 Crying (Biohazard Batttle)
28) 206 Kuga/Sky Fang (Vapor Trail)
29) 208 Microcosm (CD)
30) 210 Elemental Master
31) 215 Advanced Buster Hawk Gley Lancer
32) 217 Gynoug
33) 220 Bari Arm (CD)
34) 234 Granada
35) 269 Eliminate Down
36) 273 Dennin Aleste (Robo Aleste) CD
37) 276 LHX Attack Chopper
38) 304 Galaxy Force II
39) 323 Undeadline
40) 327 Dangerous Seed
41) 328 Tatsujin
42) 329 Sol Feace (CD)
43) 350 Air Diver
44) 351 Forgotten Worlds
45) 354 Phelios
46) 381 Space Harrier II
47) 401 Darwin 4081
48) 404 Star Wars Arcade 32X
49) 406 Burning Force
50) 408 Fire Mustang
51) 410 After Burner III (CD)
52) 413 Whip Rush
53) 420 Daisenpū (Twin Hawk)
54) 421 Arrow Flash
55) 423 Verytex
56) 425 Steel Talons
57) 432 Task Force Harrier EX
58) 439 KyūKyōku Tiger (Twin Cobra)
59) 446 Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair
60) 453 Master of Weapon
61) 457 Atomic Robo Kid
62) 461 Super Thunderblade
63) 467 G-LOC
64) 469 Super Airwolf (Crossfire)
65) 477 Insector X
66) 485 Heavy Unit
67) 490 Space Invaders ’90
68) 499 Curse
69) 519 XDR: X-Dazedly Ray



The Overall Top 25:

Spoiler

1 Lunar Eternal Blue
2 After Burner Complete 32X
3 Yuyu Hakusho Makyō Tōitsusen
4 Space Harrier 32X
5 Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millennium
6 Langrisser II
7 Gyuwanburaa Jikō Chūshin-ha 2
8 Silpheed
9 Yumimi Mix (CD)
10 Advanced Daisenryaku - German Blitzkrieg
11 Virtua Racing Deluxe 32X
12 Urusei Yatsura: Dear My Friends (CD)
14 Lunar The Silver Star
15 Lord Monarch
16 Doom 32X
17 Gunstar Heroes
18 Dyna Brothers 2
19 Hybrid Front
20 Shining Force
21 Puyo Puyo
22 Monster World IV
23 Sonic & Knuckles
24 Battle Mania Daiginjõ
25 Gauntlet IV

Treasure Games:

Spoiler

3 Yuyu Hakusho Makyō Tōitsusen
17 Gunstar Heroes
28 Alien Soldier
50 Dynamite Headdy
152 McDonald’s Treasure Land
156 Light Crusader

Mega 32X Games (Note: Some titles were not released in time to be voted on here. No doubt Virtua Fighter would have come out close to the top):

Spoiler

2 After Burner Complete
4 Space Harrier
11 Virtua Racing Deluxe
16 Doom
42 Stellar Assault (Shadow Squadron)
232 Knuckles Chaotix
248 Metal Head
256 Tempo 32X
404 Star Wars Arcade 32X
476 Cyber Brawl (Cosmic Carnage)

Selected RPGs:

Spoiler

1 Lunar Eternal Blue (CD)
5 Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millennium
6 Langrisser II
14 Lunar The Silver Star
20 Shining Force
22 Monster World IV
25 Gauntlet IV
52 Popful Mail
65 Might & Magic III (CD)
70 Star Cruiser
71 Dungeon Master II
108 Wonder Boy V Monster World III
117 Shin Megami Tensei (CD)
139 Shining & The Darkness
148 Ys III: Wanderers from Ys
151 3x3 Eyes (CD)
156 Light Crusader
171 Phantasy Star II
183 Eye of the Beholder (CD)
212 Dragon Slayer: The Legend of Heroes
216 Phantasy Star Fukkokuban (Phantasy Star 1 Re-release)
239 Wizard of Immortal (The Immortal)
268 After Armageddon Gaiden (CD)
279 Arcus I II III
313 Dragon Slayer: The Legend of Heroes
342 Vay
364 Phantasy Star III
393 Vermilion
424 Exile
474 Traysia
487 Super Hydlide
489 Cosmic Fantasy Stories (CD)
505 Death Bringer (CD)

Selected Fighting Games:

Spoiler

3 Yuyu Hakusho Makyō Tōitsusen
48 Street Fighter II Dash Plus
85 Super Street Fighter II
111 Mortal Kombat II: Ultimate God Fist
115 Mortal Kombat CD
175 Fatal Fury
187 Fatal Fury 2
209 Pit Fighter
322 Eternal Champions
331 Mortal Kombat
345 Ryūkō no Ken (Art of Fighting)
346 Cutie Suzuki no Ringside Angel
356 TMNT Tournament Fighters
416 King of the Monsters
476 Cyber Brawl (Cosmic Carnage) 32X
495 Aa, Haraminada!
508 Beast Warriors (Beast Wrestler)
511 Street Smart

Selected Western (and Western-ish) Titles:

Spoiler

16 Doom 32X
25 Gauntlet IV
46 Tecmo Super Bowl
65 Might & Magic III (CD)
68 Night Trap
71 Dungeon Master II
74 Soul Star (CD)
111 Mortal Kombat II: Ultimate God Fist
115 Mortal Kombat (CD)
123 Road Rash II
130 Wing Commander (CD)
158 Ecco the Dolphin
169 Rampart
183 Eye of the Beholder (CD)
194 Robocop vs. The Terminator
207 Speedball
208 Microcosm (CD)
209 Pit Fighter
218 Ecco CD
228 T.M.N.T. Return of The Shredder (The Hyperstone Heist)
239 Wizard of Immortal (The Immortal)
248 Metal Head 32X
258 Ecco II
266 Michael Jackson’s Moonwalker
276 LHX Attack Chopper
318 General Chaos
322 Eternal Champions
331 Mortal Kombat
356 TMNT Tournament Fighters
359 Batman
404 Star Wars Arcade 32X
414 Batman Returns
422 Ghost Busters
433 Killing Game Show
442 Rambo III
448 Battletoads
463 (Tongue of the) Fatman
469 Super Airwolf (Crossfire)
496 Fantasia
498 The Flintstones
509 Awesome Possum
510 Space Funky B.O.B. (B.O.B.)
520 Sword of Sodan

The Bottom 25:

Spoiler

495 Aa, Haraminada!
496 Fantasia
497 Shijō Saidai no Sōkoban (Shove It! The Warehouse Game)
498 The Flintstones
499 Curse
501 Thunder Fox
502 SD Valis (Syd of Valis)
503 Kidō Keisatsu Patlabor: 98-shiki Kidō seyo!
504 Shiten MyōŌ (Shadow Blasters)
505 Death Bringer: The Hidden Emblem (CD)
506 Bakuden: The Unbalanced Zone (CD)
507 Jashin Draxos (Risky Woods)
508 Beast Warriors (Beast Wrestler)
509 Awesome Possum
510 Space Funky B.O.B. (B.O.B.)
511 Street Smart
512 Dino Land
513 Osomatsu kun - Hachamecha Gekijō
514 F-1 Circus (CD)
515 Planet Woodstock Funky Horror Band (CD)
516 Double Dragon II
517 Rastan Saga II
518 Nakajima Satoru Kanshū F-1 Hero MD (Ferrari Grand Prix Challenge)
519 XDR: X-Dazedly Ray
520 Sword of Sodan

NOTE 1: There were no game rentals in Japan, and emulation was still both in its infancy and frowned upon (and rates of home computer ownership lower), so take that into consideration in wondering "How could they put X over Y?"

NOTE 2: This was fall '95, which was the end for the Mega Drive. But there were still a couple of titles released after this which didn't make the list: Virtua Fighter 32X, Pengo, Earthworm Jim, Comix Zone etc. Compile's Shadowrun for Mega CD, along with Madō Monogatari & Earth Worm Jim 2 for the base Mega Drive were the only 1996 releases of any sort.

Let me know if there are any titles you notice missing, or that you're curious about. If you'd like to see the full list for yourself, SegaRetro has it hosted here:

https://segaretro.org/index.php?title=F ... df&page=84

Spoiler

Bottom 5, we made it baby!

[TransatlanticFoe]

I assume this is a list of almost everything, given Awesome Possum and Sword of Sodan being toward the end?

Apart from Twin Cobra's bizarrely low position, I was ready to largely agree until I saw 32X Doom in the top 20!! No bosses, no BFG, a full third of the game missing, flatuence replacing the music... no that is utterly insane. Doom is a great game but you cut out Inferno and you cut out Doom's heart. Were people really that desperate for Doom?! I'll defend SNES Doom because it was legit the most cost-effective way to play Doom at the time, the majority of the content is there and the low resolution isn't an issue on the common 14" CRTs of the time.

[Despatche]

It will never not be utterly grotesque that great games like Crying and Eliminate Down are as low as they are. Likewise, Dennin should never be anywhere below Musha, ever. It's also a complete mystery that games like Slap Fight MD or Stellar Assault are as high as they are, not that they don't deserve it, but none of this placement makes sense. Beep! readership must have just been absolutely horrendous.

[Rastan78]

Well readers would have to vote based on what they know and it's unlikely that many players would have access to all these games at the time. Probably best to view the list as a popularity poll and not some type of absolute verdict on each game's quality.

I was kinda surprised to see Mortal Kombat holding its own on among the fighting games. I never knew a decent amount of Japan players were into the series.

[Despatche]

Even if one were to be so considerate, that would raise so many questions for the 32X games here.

[Rastan78]

Even if one were to be so considerate, that would raise so many questions for the 32X games here.

That really does raise some questions. All 10 people that owned a 32X must have mailed in votes.

[Steven]

It will never not be utterly grotesque that great games like Crying and Eliminate Down are as low as they are. Likewise, Dennin should never be anywhere below Musha, ever. It's also a complete mystery that games like Slap Fight MD or Stellar Assault are as high as they are, not that they don't deserve it, but none of this placement makes sense. Beep! readership must have just been absolutely horrendous.

Given the rarity of Eliminate Down, it's not entirely unexpected that not many people played it, but Slap Fight MD, which we have an actual production estimate for (5000 copies), is also considerably rare, so its high ranking is still surprising.

[Sengoku Strider]

I assume this is a list of almost everything, given Awesome Possum and Sword of Sodan being toward the end?

Close to it. I think all told Japan saw around 560 releases across all three formats. There were around 25 Q4 '95 releases which wouldn't have made the cutoff for this list. And it's understandable that nobody's voting for Osaka Bank Home Banking Service MyLine for the Mega Modem (though some modem stuff did make the list).

Apart from Twin Cobra's bizarrely low position, I was ready to largely agree until I saw 32X Doom in the top 20!! No bosses, no BFG, a full third of the game missing, flatuence replacing the music... no that is utterly insane. Doom is a great game but you cut out Inferno and you cut out Doom's heart. Were people really that desperate for Doom?! I'll defend SNES Doom because it was legit the most cost-effective way to play Doom at the time, the majority of the content is there and the low resolution isn't an issue on the common 14" CRTs of the time.

Well, in this case it's important to note that Doom wasn't released for Super Famicom in Japan until after this poll, in March '96. The other factor is that computer penetration was incredibly low by the standards of an industrialized country at the time: 8.7 PCs per 100 people in 1994, compared to 28.4 for the United States. And that's including corporate office PCs. Windows accounted for less than 10% of that; NEC's PC-98 OS was the Japanese standard until the global IT dominance of the Wintel standard and Windows '95 displaced it. A significant part of the reason for this low overall penetration in the period is that PCs in Japan cost double what they did in the West, until Fujitsu finally broke with the oligopoly in '94 and released a computer half the price of what NEC had on offer.

All of which is to say, at the time of this poll the 32X version of Doom was the one people in Japan realistically had access to.

It will never not be utterly grotesque that great games like Crying and Eliminate Down are as low as they are.

Eliminate Down wasn't rapturously received at the time. Beep!'s reviewers gave it 7, 7, 6, 7, Famitsu's gave it 6s across the board. Similar situation with Crying, Beep! gave it 7/6/5/7. (I don't know if any other JP outlets reviewed it).

I was kinda surprised to see Mortal Kombat holding its own on among the fighting games. I never knew a decent amount of Japan players were into the series.

I was interested in parsing out the Western stuff, out of a theory that the Mega Drive was where the Ameriboos wound up. I'm guessing that possibility, combined with it being pitched as a Big Deal for the system outside Japan, gave it a higher profile here.

[Despatche]

That's exactly the thing, Beep! and Famitsu probably influenced people away from great games like every other reviewer does. Awful.

People gotta understand that Thunder Force and Musha and such are liked because of the flash, not because of the gameplay. So many of their peers are strictly better games and people just pretend they aren't even as good. It's dumb.

[To Far Away Times]

The secret is that if you have solid but not neccisarily spectacular gameplay, but you absolutely crush it with the presentation, then you've made a great video game.

Thunderforce III & IV and MUSHA are probably my three favorite shmups on the Genesis.

[Despatche]

Too bad they're some of the worst shmups ever released to market then, not at all "solid". Especially Musha. Again, I don't know why people glorify Musha yet pretend something like Verytex is not exactly the same kind of game.

[Koa Zo]

Landstalker?

[Sengoku Strider]

Landstalker?

#41. So not bad, in the top 10% overall. But I know it sold quite well there - I posted this in the 'only Sega remains' thread in Other Gaming a while back, the top 30 best selling Mega Drive titles in Japan:

1. Puyo Puyo
2. Shining Force
3. Sonic the Hedgehog
4. Street Fighter II’ Plus
5. Virtua Racing
6. Sonic 3
7. Shining Force II
8. Phantasy Star IV
9. Langrisser II
10. Sonic 2
11. Landstalker
12. Columns
13. Shining in the Darkness
14. Silpheed (Mega CD)
15. Super Monaco GP
16. Puyo Puyo Tsu
17. Shining Force CD (Mega CD)
18. Lunar: The Silver Star (Mega CD)
19. Streets of Rage II
20. Mickey Mouse Castle of Illusion
21. Phantasy Star II
22. Gunstar Heroes
23. Super Street Fighter II
24. Lunar: Eternal Blue (Mega CD)
25. Michael Jackson’s Moonwalker
26. Golden Axe
27. Ghouls n’ Ghosts
28. J-League Pro Striker
29. Advanced Daisenryaku
30. Yuyu Hakusho

It's interesting to see how different that is from the Beep! readership's picks.

[Steven]

I always found it weird that Gunstar Heroes sold so well and yet is still around 8000~10000 yen complete while more obscure things like Herzog Zwei are only around 2000 yen complete... and seeing Herzog Zwei at 202 on the list makes me sad. That game deserves way more love than it gets, even now. I guess there is no demand for H2 and a lot of demand for Gunstar Heroes, as there is no other explanation.

[pja]

People gotta understand that Thunder Force and Musha and such are liked because of the flash, not because of the gameplay. So many of their peers are strictly better games and people just pretend they aren't even as good. It's dumb.

Presentation absolutely is one of the parts of the games quality, I don't know why you're talking like this is not the case. Otherwise someone would make a game where you pilot the square that dodges the other squares (why invest in graphics at all if this is not what makes the game "good"?)

[Sumez]

I'll defend SNES Doom because it was legit the most cost-effective way to play Doom at the time

You must have forgotten how expensive SNES games were

[Ghegs]

People gotta understand that Thunder Force and Musha and such are liked because of the flash, not because of the gameplay. So many of their peers are strictly better games and people just pretend they aren't even as good. It's dumb.

Presentation absolutely is one of the parts of the games quality, I don't know why you're talking like this is not the case. Otherwise someone would make a game where you pilot the square that dodges the other squares (why invest in graphics at all if this is not what makes the game "good"?)

I absolutely agree that presentation is important, but simple squares dodging and shooting other squares doesn't make a game un-good. Case in point.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I'll defend SNES Doom because it was legit the most cost-effective way to play Doom at the time

You must have forgotten how expensive SNES games were

Nope, while Doom was one of the expensive carts at £60 (plenty of retailers had it for £45 though) the SNES was essentially end of life and anyone that didn't already have one could pick on up for £70-80 new

PCs were topping a grand for anything half-capable of running games, so even in the West weren't an option for most people
32X was about £150 alone
Jaguar was still clinging on so hadn't gone into its bargain basement selloff
SNES + Doom = £140 at most. Definitely the cheapest way to play Doom in 1995!

Didn't realise how rough Japan had it with access to Doom though, with the SNES release not coming until '96. Did they even get the Jaguar version? I mean no-one had a Jaguar either but it was probably the same price to get Jaguar + Doom as it was to get a 32X + Doom, with the bonus of having the rest of the game and better performance. It's still some serious stockholm syndrome for people to rate such a gimped port so highly - top 20 out of all the MD games, come on!!

[pja]

People gotta understand that Thunder Force and Musha and such are liked because of the flash, not because of the gameplay. So many of their peers are strictly better games and people just pretend they aren't even as good. It's dumb.

Presentation absolutely is one of the parts of the games quality, I don't know why you're talking like this is not the case. Otherwise someone would make a game where you pilot the square that dodges the other squares (why invest in graphics at all if this is not what makes the game "good"?)

I absolutely agree that presentation is important, but simple squares dodging and shooting other squares doesn't make a game un-good. Case in point.

I guess you got me there I should probably have said that if it didn't matter, "everybody" (not "somebody") would make games only with squares. And it's of course possible to make very simple aesthetic look good too.

[Despatche]

Presentation absolutely is one of the parts of the games quality, I don't know why you're talking like this is not the case.

The best graphics and audio in the world interacts well with good gameplay. However, the best graphics and audio in the world cannot ever save bad gameplay, except for those who never cared anything for gameplay. If anything, presentation should get more attention when the game actually plays well.

Otherwise someone would make a game where you pilot the square that dodges the other squares (why invest in graphics at all if this is not what makes the game "good"?)

This specific argument always concerns me because, aside from appearing basically every time presentation is called into question, it seems to go way too far in the other direction. Never mind that Kenta Cho's games exist, even a "plain"-looking/sounding game with great gameplay is going to beat the nicest-looking/sounding game ever that plays like ass.

Of course, plain-looking games are honestly pretty rare, at least within the realm of 2D. Most older games had tons of effort put into the look for the given timeframe or hardware, and a lot of differences really just boil down to taste. Winglancer, for example, has pretty nice presentation for the given situation (free MSX2 game), even if it's a "simple" game. Even something that would be "plain" in theory like x.x's games end up looking fairly unique because that specific "simple prerenders" look is basically exclusive to old Japanese doujin games, and by now x.x is more or less the last holdout of it.

[pja]

Presentation absolutely is one of the parts of the games quality, I don't know why you're talking like this is not the case.

The best graphics and audio in the world interacts well with good gameplay. However, the best graphics and audio in the world cannot ever save bad gameplay, except for those who never cared anything for gameplay. If anything, presentation should get more attention when the game actually plays well.
(...)
This specific argument always concerns me because, aside from appearing basically every time presentation is called into question, it seems to go way too far in the other direction.

Maybe people are using that argument against you often because you seem genuinely perplexed that someone might like (or even tolerate) the kind of gameplay you do not. If you want to argue that Thunder Force or whatever has bad gameplay then I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but I'm pretty sure plenty of people will disagree with you, and dismissing their opinion by saing that they probably "never cared about gameplay" won't earn you any sympathy for your arguments.

[Despatche]

That isn't what I'm getting at at all. It just seems really weird that people immediately go for the "clearly you want the game to be a bunch of squares!!!" take whenever the idea that gameplay is more important than presentation is brought up.

That aside, you seem really confrontational about what is a nostalgia-heavy topic. Hey, I liked Thunder Force and Musha as a kid too... I also didn't know better then. People can claim to disagree with me all they want, but what they're really disagreeing with is the idea of their nostalgia being challenged. They also can't truly disagree with Thunder Force games having wack balance and/or wack scoring, nor can they disagree that Musha plays exactly like the much-hated Verytex. Instead, they prefer to handwave such things on the basis of presentation and nostalgia.

Games like Gate of Thunder and Mahou Daisakusen exist to smash these games into the pavement. That's a simple fact.

[pja]

That isn't what I'm getting at at all. It just seems really weird that people immediately go for the "clearly you want the game to be a bunch of squares!!!" take whenever the idea that gameplay is more important than presentation is brought up.

You similarly seem to dismiss the idea that some people are willing to overlook gameplay flaws for presentation, immediately going for the card of "nostalgia" and "kids not knowing any better".
And I think it's way weirder (and way more confrontational ) that you're referring to readers of a 1995 magazine as horrendous (and reviewers awful) for the simple fact of placing some games higher than others, just because you now have the hindsight of ~20-30 years of shmups history (and access to the whole Megadrive catalog). As you yourself noted, people's perception of various games changes over time.

And challenging people's nostalgia is fine, but there are ways to do that doesn't involve dismissing their opinions completely.

[To Far Away Times]

That isn't what I'm getting at at all. It just seems really weird that people immediately go for the "clearly you want the game to be a bunch of squares!!!" take whenever the idea that gameplay is more important than presentation is brought up.

That aside, you seem really confrontational about what is a nostalgia-heavy topic. Hey, I liked Thunder Force and Musha as a kid too... I also didn't know better then. People can claim to disagree with me all they want, but what they're really disagreeing with is the idea of their nostalgia being challenged. They also can't truly disagree with Thunder Force games having wack balance and/or wack scoring, nor can they disagree that Musha plays exactly like the much-hated Verytex. Instead, they prefer to handwave such things on the basis of presentation and nostalgia.

Games like Gate of Thunder and Mahou Daisakusen exist to smash these games into the pavement. That's a simple fact.

The scoring system in Thunderforce III is like the scoring system in Megaman 1, don't bother with it. And its a little unbalanced with the hunter being clearly the best weapon. But you can also lose it pretty easily. And it's a interesting take on the recovery system to let you switch weapons at will, while letting you spawn in place and only lose your current weapon. So you need to guard your hunter weapon.

Instead, focus on the moment to moment gameplay. How it feels to zip around the screen with user controllable speed and generously powerful weapons, generally faster scrolling speed, and frantic gameplay. I hadn't even heard of it until my 20's, and it instantly became one of my favorite games I've ever played, shmup or not.

I can find games with both better weapon balance and better scoring systems that aren't fit to lick Thunderforce III's boot.

[Jonpachi]

Seriously though Despatche, you seem to come blasting into all these threads like everything is a zero-sum game in which people either agree with your POV or are idiots. It's repetitive and adds nothing to the discourse to constantly tell us all how much you like Crying and why everything popular is shit.

[Sengoku Strider]

That's exactly the thing, Beep! and Famitsu probably influenced people away from great games like every other reviewer does. Awful.

People gotta understand that Thunder Force and Musha and such are liked because of the flash, not because of the gameplay. So many of their peers are strictly better games and people just pretend they aren't even as good. It's dumb.

It's funny that you put things that way, Eliminate Down often gets the same accusations thrown at it. This is literally what Famitsu said at the time -

Reviewer #2:

Spoiler

"The graphics are beautiful. Very beautiful. Perhaps the best among Mega Drive shooters. Since it's a commonly structured yoko scroll shooter, I think people will be divided between loving or hating it. I'm completely exhausted from dodging the fierce enemy attacks though. The whack-a-mole mini game is √."

[Despatche]

Assuming the translation is accurate and that the other reviews have similar statements, that particular review doesn't really come across that way at all. First, you have people repeatedly dismissing games that aren't Thunder Force or Musha as relying on flash because Thunder Force and Musha are what converted them first. Second, for some reason, a lot of Japanese mags will rate a game down solely for difficulty, even if the actual written text is positive. So even though this translation literally only puts down "it's too hard" as a negative, that's more than enough to damn the game to the hells of the 6/6/6/6. And remember, 6~10 is the actual scale and the other numbers are memes.

A lot of people think I'm just being contrarian about this to, again, protect their precious Thunder Forces and Mushas. I don't know how many times I have to say that Gate of Thunder is one of the best games ever made, which is not an unpopular take at all, for people to finally get that this isn't the case and maybe hopefully possibly to stop protecting games that don't deserve it.

You similarly seem to dismiss the idea that some people are willing to overlook gameplay flaws for presentation, immediately going for the card of "nostalgia" and "kids not knowing any better".

Well yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, that people do this. People will also tie nostalgia into this, and they typically actively don't know better on purpose. I'm not sure what you're getting at, I said what I said.

But that aside, the idea that you can overlook crippling flaws for the sake of presentation is so... anti-game. I can't come up with a better word to describe this, it's just so fundamentally negative against the entire concept of video games. Then I factor in that people either make a bigger deal out of certain gameplay problems than they are, or that people just straight up fabricate flaws that aren't even present in the game, and I can't help but wonder exactly how people even enjoy this hobby we call video games after a certain point. You need only read pretty much any HG101 review for great examples of both, and HG101 is more or less how most people on the internet talk about video games.

Simply put, the way people talk about the things they enjoy is an unmitigated disaster. They don't understand why they actually enjoy things at all (and sometimes will actually admit it amazingly), they have no problem shitting on the entire existence of others for daring to call them out for this or even for simply enjoying anything they don't personally like, and they endlessly accuse said others of doing that exact thing back to them. Much like how the people replying to me are heading towards right now, so please don't.

I'm tired of whether or not a game is considered to be Objectively Good or Objectively Bad being based on whether it's popular, how many people happen to personally like it, and all that other circumstantial garbage that has nothing to do with the game itself that's actually being talked about. I am so unbelievably tired of hearing that age-old phrase "this was unpopular for a reason", especially by some shithead "excavator" type who is simply playing a game that clearly wasn't made for them. This was bad in 1995, but it's so much worse in 2022 for entirely too many reasons.

And challenging people's nostalgia is fine, but there are ways to do that doesn't involve dismissing their opinions completely.

The problem is that you often have no choice but to do this, as entirely too many people define all aspects of their personal taste, but also their actual knowledge, with their nostalgia. This is also why you have games that get shit on solely for being "unknown" or "not reviewed as well" as the big names, even though neither being unknown nor being reviewed particularly well mean jack or squat.

The scoring system in Thunderforce III is like the scoring system in Megaman 1, don't bother with it. And its a little unbalanced with the hunter being clearly the best weapon. But you can also lose it pretty easily. And it's a interesting take on the recovery system to let you switch weapons at will, while letting you spawn in place and only lose your current weapon. So you need to guard your hunter weapon.

Instead, focus on the moment to moment gameplay. How it feels to zip around the screen with user controllable speed and generously powerful weapons, generally faster scrolling speed, and frantic gameplay. I hadn't even heard of it until my 20's, and it instantly became one of my favorite games I've ever played, shmup or not.

I can find games with both better weapon balance and better scoring systems that aren't fit to lick Thunderforce III's boot.

This is such a great writeup on why Thunder Force III (you chose this game specifically, not me) is such a problematic game that I can't believe it was written by a self-proclaimed fan. Maybe those games you can find aren't fit to lick III's boot because it'll give them gangrene? I've said this before, I'm willing to potentially give III a pass, even if it's a ridiculous player-hating game (much like V). IV's the real problem, and it's also the one everyone says is God's shmup gift to mankind, the best shooting game ever released with no exception and no qualification.

[To Far Away Times]

Thunderforce III, is IMO, a game designed around player empowerment, but it walks a fine line of not going too far as too make the game too easy. In some ways it actually reminds me of Mushihimesama Futari BL Original in how you just carve through enemies and are crazy powerful, but there's still enough challenge that its not like playing a novice mode.

I'm curious what you see about Gate of Thunder that makes it so much better than Thunderforce III, when the two games, to me atleast, are quite similar. I don't like Gate of Thunder quite as much, but I still hold it in really high regard, and it's made my Top 25 list before.

Thunderforce IV I do enjoy but I think it is a step down from III and Gate of Thunder. It's not nearly as tight with its design. Thunderforce IV has a weak and ineffective starting weapon, which may actually be even worse when upgraded, and poor feedback on bosses. It also has those tall vertical levels which suck in every game they're in. It's a lot harder than the other two games, and clearly not a feel good blast 'em all anymore. Thunderforce IV wants you to struggle against a powerful enemy with weak weapons and looping boss patterns. It's a completely different feel. That's not to say the game is without merit. It has a very good soundtrack, and some memorable events that are synced to changes in the music that are just *chef's kiss*. It's clear a ton of effort went into the game to make it bigger and badder, and its a commendable effort. So yes, it's not just production value that matters. And when the game design backslides a bit it is noticeable. But it is still a fun game at the end of the day, and one that I really enjoyed playing and mastering. But I wouldn't put it on a Top 25 list.

[Despatche]

A lot of what you describe about IV can be applied to III. III is a player-hating monster where if you don't play the game exactly as you're told, you won't make a dent in it. I have never gotten anywhere in III without mashing continues or savestates, which I basically never do for any game. None of its design makes any sense to me, none of the stages besides stage 1 make any sense to start from, and I do not have the slightest clue how people do the Haides start without taking soul damage, yet I'm supposed to believe that it's an incredibly easy game that anyone can clear. Every single time someone says that, I want to believe they're talking about AC, yet it's quite obvious they're talking about III. That being said, the idea of playing the game at a high level doesn't seem completely absurd like it is with IV, never mind the existence of AC as a funny "Black Label" kind of game, which is why I say that I'm willing to give III a pass. This is also why I'm generally willing to leave V alone, though that game is a lot like other 3D shmups of that time where it's so weirdly harder than most previous games. Ray Storm, G Darius, R-Type Delta, etc also feel like brutal games, though in a different way than Thunder Force III... maybe.

IV and Gate have never given me anywhere near this kind of trouble just to play them on a very basic level, though IV sure does act like it wants to sometimes. Gate isn't like this at all, with the only basic requirement ever asked of the player being to know the controls and know how each weapon works. It's a lot more like Thunder Force AC in that regard, but without the funny autofire issue that game has, and also without the general weirdness that naturally comes from being a modified version of another game. And yes, Blade fucking sucks, that's a big point against IV. The other weapons seem perfectly fine, but Blade is just such an obvious misstep, especially since the weapon itself looks like it'd be pretty great as an upgrade to your starter weapon. I might ever whine about Lightning in Gate not being as good as Earthquake a lot of the time (one of the closest things to a real issue Gate's got), but at least I can actually hit things with it reliably.

[Jonpachi]

III is a player-hating monster where if you don't play the game exactly as you're told, you won't make a dent in it. I have never gotten anywhere in III without mashing continues or savestates, which I basically never do for any game.

Can you tell us some games that you consider easy?

I think I'm with a lot of members here in feeling that III is on the very low end of the difficulty scale. It's often cited as a great beginner's game, and was one of the very first games I can remember getting a 1CC on. I disagree completely with the "do as you're told" statement, as there are several viable weapons and lots of open space to improvise your way through trouble. The MegaMan reference is apt in regard to some bosses, but the punishment for death is far less painful than something like a Gradius, as you can often make a quick come-back in TF III even if you bumble a few lives (of which you can stack several) here and there.