Layer Section / Galactic Attack S-Tribute for Switch/PS4/XB1

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

The real news was that Metal Black and Elevator Action Returns is getting a release with Layer Section being first in the line of Taito releases. Very miffed that this isn't a compilation that includes RayForce PS1 or the Arcade version as well. Those are the versions I'm most familiar with.

Seeing that the Switch demo impression seem to be positive though. Guess we'll see what happens with the final release.

[Rastan78]

Just checked the demo on Switch. I would echo what other people said, that the arcade version would be preferred. Looking at the first stage though this seems to be a solid conversion of the Saturn game which is nothing to sneeze at.

Random first impressions:

Scaling - Yeah it's not pixel perfect and shows shimmering. The shimmering isn't too bad if you're not looking for it though. Taito F3 is not exactly 4:3 anyway. For Cozmic Collection, M2 opted to go pixel perfect on Darius Gaiden which means the vertical size is just a little squashed, maybe 5% or so. Here they stretched to 4:3 and the trade off is some shimmering.

Tate - You can do it within the in game option menu like on the Saturn original.

Scan lines - You can turn off the smoothing filter and leave on scan lines which is nice. If you are playing yoko the scanlines are horizontal as they would be playing the Saturn version yoko on a CRT. Unfortunately because the pixel scaling is uneven the scanlines look a bit off anyway.

Input lag - It did feel floaty to me. Take this with a grain of salt, but if I had to take a wild guess I would say 6 frames. It's not going to drive people crazy who aren't sensitive to input lag, but it didn't feel as responsive as an M2 port on Switch, at least to me.

I think this is gonna be a pretty solid version, especially for those that don't have a Saturn copy laying around. Ray Force is one of those games that deserves to be experienced in any format possible. The OST, by Tamayo Kawamoto, has gotta be top 10 all time in shmups for me. Which reminds me, I hope Black Tiger/ Dragon(which she also did the arcade OST for) comes to the 2nd CAS. I'd like to play some portable Black Dragon.

Oh BTW why the fuck are they calling this Layer Section & Galactic Attack or whatever. Just pick one name per region. It's the same game.

[Steven]

Yeah, if the full game is as good as the demo, I think this will be a pretty decent release overall. I have Layer Section on the Saturn already, so I am not sure if I will buy this, but at least it gets the game on more modern systems in a playable form instead of being stuck using ~28 year old Saturn hardware. The emulation seems mostly fine here. I wish they could have gotten it right with Cotton the first time, and you'd have a very hard time convincing me that they didn't put this demo out specifically to address the input lag of Cotton, as if to say "we got it right this time! You can check it for free if you don't believe us!".

[Sengoku Strider]

If this one isn't up to par I'm going to regret selling my Saturn copy of Layer Section last year.

Fortunately it's still one of the handful of common and affordable STGs on Saturn. I'm seeing it on Suruga-ya for ¥3880, which is about $32 USD. Considering that the S-Tribute version is download-only and will cost ¥2980, unless you're willing to trade a bit of lag for the extra features you might as well just go ahead and buy it back. Unlike a download it'll hold its value pretty much forever and could easily be sold for more in the West.

Hyper Duel or Shienryu could be next.

Sega owns Technosoft's catalogue now, so City Connection likely wouldn't get a sniff at Hyper Duel, Thunder Force V or Blast Wind.

On the Saturn:
-YOKO mode has less enemies
-YOKO removes graphical effects
-Difficulty is different; no one knows if there is even a way to get "arcade accurate" and it would not matter because of point #1
-extends are different

Honestly I don't see a reason to port the Saturn rayforce. And God help us if we get the lame and watered down Layer Section 2.

What kind of savage plays in yoko though? Have I been transported back to 2022 BC?

The other differences will matter to anyone who specifically wants to have their score listed on the same table as the arcade version, otherwise they're irrelevant. Normal is the lowest difficulty, there are 5 levels above it if anyone needs more hot sauce.

I have a hard time playing any game from this series after playing Soukyugurentai. Souky hits so many of the same notes, only better.

Stop. The light of the truth you speak is blinding me. I often wonder the degree to which this game's higher profile is because it had a Western release.

As a Raizing title Sōky belongs in line for the M2 treatment, though.

Oh BTW why the fuck are they calling this Layer Section & Galactic Attack or whatever. Just pick one name per region. It's the same game.

I guess because it's specifically a 'tribute' to the Saturn. Or a misguided play for nostalgia dollars. The iOS version is called Rayforce, so I assume the copyright problems that necessitated the game's title-roulette are in the rearview mirror. Just call it that, it fits with the rest of the series and is way better than either of the two home release names.

at least it gets the game on more modern systems in a playable form instead of being stuck using ~28 year old Saturn hardware.

Are you really stuck when the Saturn is pretty much undefeated vs. its ports tho?

[Kiken]

Input lag - It did feel floaty to me. Take this with a grain of salt, but if I had to take a wild guess I would say 6 frames. It's not going to drive people crazy who aren't sensitive to input lag, but it didn't feel as responsive as an M2 port on Switch, at least to me.

It definitely feels a little floaty. Maybe somewhere in the 4.5 to 5 frame area. It really stood out to me when quickly switching to an opposite direction of movement (say I'm moving left and then suddenly switch to moving right) and when releasing the lock-on lasers (there is a noticeable pause after tapping the button before the lasers are deployed).

I captured a couple of screen shots set in tate with smoothing off and scanlines on:


Second screen shot
Third screen shot

When the colours are darker, the image quality is respectable, but any really bright colours (like at the title screen in the third shot) look pretty horrendous.

[Steven]

Are you really stuck when the Saturn is pretty much undefeated vs. its ports tho?

Yes, because all Saturns will eventually die and then you won't be able to play it on a Saturn anymore. Every Switch, PS4, and Xbox will eventually die as well. Better to have it on newer hardware than older hardware, assuming it looks, runs, and plays identically. Fortunately, it's also getting a PC release, which means that as long as PC hardware changes in the future don't render it unplayable due to incompatibility, the PC version will live forever.

[heli]

Yes if you cant win you smash the console tru your tv.
If you dont play they break yes, you should play all your consoles once in a while to keep them in shape.
I have to get busy on my PS2 now to save it.

[EmperorIng]

I have Layer Section on the Saturn already, so I am not sure if I will buy this, but at least it gets the game on more modern systems in a playable form instead of being stuck using ~28 year old Saturn hardware.

The larger contention being that the saturn port is inferior to the arcade original and makes changes that make it incomparable to the original game - the latter of which is what deserved a port, not the nearly 30 year old saturn port. The og Xbox got an arcade port back in the day, and nearly 2 decades later this is the best we can get?

the PC version will live forever

*the rom running on mame will live forever

The other differences will matter to anyone who specifically wants to have their score listed on the same table as the arcade version, otherwise they're irrelevant. Normal is the lowest difficulty, there are 5 levels above it if anyone needs more hot sauce.

I guess it's a bit much to ask to have a comparable experience to the arcade game, considering there is only one home release that offers this? Upping the difficulty is not the point. I don't play these games solely for the challenge (otherwise I would just play every shmup on hardest settings), it's more about being able to play the game as it was designed and envisioned.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Input lag - It did feel floaty to me. Take this with a grain of salt, but if I had to take a wild guess I would say 6 frames. It's not going to drive people crazy who aren't sensitive to input lag, but it didn't feel as responsive as an M2 port on Switch, at least to me.

It definitely feels a little floaty. Maybe somewhere in the 4.5 to 5 frame area. It really stood out to me when quickly switching to an opposite direction of movement (say I'm moving left and then suddenly switch to moving right) and when releasing the lock-on lasers (there is a noticeable pause after tapping the button before the lasers are deployed).

I captured a couple of screen shots set in tate with smoothing off and scanlines on:

Second screen shot
Third screen shot

When the colours are darker, the image quality is respectable, but any really bright colours (like at the title screen in the third shot) look pretty horrendous.

Many thanks for the screens. It's terrible. Why do they even bother if that's all they got.

The larger contention being that the saturn port is inferior to the arcade original and makes changes that make it incomparable to the original game - the latter of which is what deserved a port, not the nearly 30 year old saturn port. The og Xbox got an arcade port back in the day, and nearly 2 decades later this is the best we can get?

The other differences will matter to anyone who specifically wants to have their score listed on the same table as the arcade version, otherwise they're irrelevant. Normal is the lowest difficulty, there are 5 levels above it if anyone needs more hot sauce.

I guess it's a bit much to ask to have a comparable experience to the arcade game, considering there is only one home release that offers this? Upping the difficulty is not the point. I don't play these games solely for the challenge (otherwise I would just play every shmup on hardest settings), it's more about being able to play the game as it was designed and envisioned.

I agree with all this but the first line. Calling "inferior" the Saturn version is an exaggeration - it's a bit different difficulty-wise and has different music. And that's it. It's way better than the well-regarded Darius Gaiden port.

[bigbadboaz]

Yes, because all Saturns will eventually die and then you won't be able to play it on a Saturn anymore. Every Switch, PS4, and Xbox will eventually die as well.

This is seriously obsessive thinking. We're almost 30 years on and there is no major problem with dead Saturns. Serious hobbyists are quite good at keeping all consoles alive, and we're just now getting things like ODEs to address the biggest trouble spots. I expect to be able to game on Saturn 20 more years from now. Are you truly worried about whether you'll have on when you're like 75!?

As for CURRENT systems... just SMH.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Are you truly worried about whether you'll have on when you're like 75!?

Are you truly forgetting that future generations after we're gone might want to play Saturn games?

[bigbadboaz]

And there will be solutions. I'm as hoard-ish a gamer as most any. But there are limits.

[Sengoku Strider]

I mean, Magnavox Odysseys and Pong machines still work. Heck, there's still at least one working version of Tennis for Two out there, and that runs off a Donner 3500 analog computer from 1954.

As long as we retain the capacity to manufacture the relevant parts (which is becoming easier all the time), these things can pretty much live forever. There's no reason a given Sega Saturn couldn't outlast the oldest books we have, for instance, provided the capacitors are replaced and the shell replaced once the plastics break down.

The computer ROM argument is an interesting one - people just kind of assume the current standards will be around forever, but there's plenty of comparatively recent software that can't run on current hardware. As with the Saturn upkeep argument, the future's ability to play Layer Section ROMs is entirely contingent on there being programmers who continuously care enough to devote the time and resources necessary to keep bridging the gaps.

[To Far Away Times]

Downloaded the demo, seems like a solid conversion. Input response is good. If you're used to playing on Mame with a modern display this won't feel any different.

Would have preferred M2 style save states. This looks like it saves periodically? I hope it will keep those states in place for the length of thr game. I like to jump around and practice things.

[hamfighterx]

Re: old game preservation, disc rot is a real thing - though a bit overblown, IMO. Still probably a bigger risk than not being able to find a machine that can play original software. And a bigger risk for disc-based systems, especially early CD-ROM media, versus older cartridges.

Though, there are certainly ways around that too... can still mod original hardware to play burned discs or copies on other types of media, use newer clone consoles, emulation, etc.

[DenimDemon]

Tried the demo, feels playable enough.How does this demo input delay compares with Guardian Force on Switch?

[SPM]

Tried the demo, feels playable enough.How does this demo input delay compares with Guardian Force on Switch?

5/6 frames Vs ~10

[DenimDemon]

Thanks

[Rastan78]

I had estimated 6f on Switch. Nice to know my low tech 100% eyeball based testing methodology is fairly accurate lol

[BrianC]

As far as I can tell, having both versions, both Galactic Attack and Layer Section seem to be identical, aside from title.

[Sumez]

Is this the standard we are at now?
"6 frames isn't as responsive as some other games, and it feels floaty but if you aren't "sensitive to the lag" it's fine" ?

There's no way you can have 6 whole frames of delay on every input in a shoot'em up and have it perform comfortably. At the very least, even if you feel that you don't personally care, there is no way it won't affect your performance and make the game unnecessarily harder anyway.

I really wish people would be better at calling out input lag instead of quietly trying to accept that games just have it now.

[Rastan78]

I mean, I immediately notice 6 frames of input lag and find it annoying. Some people don't notice it and can enjoy games that way. What am I going to do, show up at their house dressed up like Mr. T, kick down their door and slap the controller out of their hand?

Spoiler

[DenimDemon]

I still got the Saturn port but just might get this to mess around.

[Sengoku Strider]

I mean, I immediately notice 6 frames of input lag and find it annoying. Some people don't notice it and can enjoy games that way. What am I going to do, show up at their house dressed up like Mr. T, kick down their door and slap the controller out of their hand?

Spoiler

Little known fact, this video was about people who played the Intellivision version of Zaxxon:

https://youtu.be/VwQoV407vJY

[Martinov]

I still got the Saturn port but just might get this to mess around.

Same. I sold the Taito Memories compilation for PS2 in favour of the Saturn edition because the input lag bugged me, but the extras might just make this version just about worthwhile.

[DenimDemon]

Went back to the Demo on Switch…it seems you can only rotate Tate anti clock wise or am I missing something? If that’s the case it sucks since my led monitor only rotates clockwise…

[BrianC]

I mean, I immediately notice 6 frames of input lag and find it annoying. Some people don't notice it and can enjoy games that way. What am I going to do, show up at their house dressed up like Mr. T, kick down their door and slap the controller out of their hand?

Spoiler

Little known fact, this video was about people who played the Intellivision version of Zaxxon:

https://youtu.be/VwQoV407vJY

Thankfully, there is now this.

[Sengoku Strider]

Thankfully, there is now this.

Here's a question - do SG-1000 games run on an Intellivision? That scrolls smoother than the SG-1000 Zaxxon (which scrolls in tiled increments), but the SG seems to win out pretty much everywhere else.

[BrianC]

Thankfully, there is now this.

Here's a question - do SG-1000 games run on an Intellivision? That scrolls smoother than the SG-1000 Zaxxon (which scrolls in tiled increments), but the SG seems to win out pretty much everywhere else.

No, the hardware is very different. You are probably thinking of the Colecovision, which has very similar hardware. It doesn't run SG-1000 games, but there have been unofficial ports of some games to CV and there's an unofficial clone that plays both CV and SG-1000 games.

[Sengoku Strider]

No, the hardware is very different. You are probably thinking of the Colecovision, which has very similar hardware. It doesn't run SG-1000 games, but there have been unofficial ports of some games to CV and there's an unofficial clone that plays both CV and SG-1000 games.

Sort of; I knew the Coleco & Intelli were competitors of a similar level, for some reason my brain just decided that must have meant it was Z80 based as well given how ubiquitous various iterations of that chip were.