Is gameplay no longer original?

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Yeah I know i was missing some genres, but i live in the middle of Montana, I'm just saying what is availabel here. There arn't really any specialitry stores so all we get is the usual sports shooters and rts games.

Manye if i lived in like La i might see some better import games, don't get me wrong I have played some pretty shoddy overseeas games. And when the hell will we get another Goemon game? I liked the N64 one. Nothing like nude clay raccons with weeners.

It might be nice to see a game that isn't genre focused.

[sethsez]

It's not "Just update the teams" stuff, which I hear Madden is.

Madden really isn't that either. It's changed quite a bit since it started out, just like Winning Eleven has, and I think they're both great simulations of their respective sports. But people act as though the US is the only country to ever make and buy sports games.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

It's not "Just update the teams" stuff, which I hear Madden is.

Madden really isn't that either. It's changed quite a bit since it started out, just like Winning Eleven has, and I think they're both great simulations of their respective sports. But people act as though the US is the only country to ever make and buy sports games.

Well I never hear of any sports games that arn;t from Britin or the Usa.

I'm sure Japan has it's sports games but you don't have hordes of fans like their RPG's do.

[Dale]

It's shameful the japenese need more inovation too. Please more shmups and RunNgun's!

Yeah, games you like = innovative!

What I meant was that the japenese should focus more on those genre's than
RPG's I was'nt implying that they were inovative at all just that their more untapped then RPG's.

[sethsez]

It's not "Just update the teams" stuff, which I hear Madden is.

Madden really isn't that either. It's changed quite a bit since it started out, just like Winning Eleven has, and I think they're both great simulations of their respective sports. But people act as though the US is the only country to ever make and buy sports games.

Well I never hear of any sports games that arn;t from Britin or the Usa.

I'm sure Japan has it's sports games but you don't have hordes of fans like their RPG's do.

Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. Konami is pretty much Japan's EA when it comes to sports games. As in, they make a ton and they sell extremely well.

They just don't come out over here with the exception of Winning Eleven. But that's a reflection on which Japanese games get localized, not a reflection on the mainstream Japanese gaming scene in general.

It's shameful the japenese need more inovation too. Please more shmups and RunNgun's!

Yeah, games you like = innovative!

What I meant was that the japenese should focus more on those genre's than
RPG's I was'nt implying that they were inovative at all just that their more untapped then RPG's.

Shmups aren't untapped at all. The genre is still alive and kicking after more than two decades and we still see a steady stream of them released.

[Shatterhand]

Ok, it's better this way. I don't want anyone here saying Winning Eleven is a bad game or something


Yeah, there's a Baseball series by Konami which is made in Japan since SNES times, which have a new game each year. (And in a way, you could say that Winning Eleven actually begun on the SNES with Perfect Eleven)

Heh, and to think that Konami made their first Soccer AND Baseball game on the MSX, and never stopped since then. Konami's Soccer is from 1985, and there are at least one feature on it that's also in every Winning Eleven game


And by the way, the NHL games from EA are very fun to play IMO. I have no idea if they are realistic or not, as I never played Ice Hockey in my life (And I doubt it is), but they are very fun to play (Unlike Fifa)

[Arznei]

I think i'm Japanese at heart. Or do they make the same old crap too?

'Cept with them it's mah-jongg and dating sims, apparently.

How many of these "same old crap dating sims" have you played?

And it always puzzles me when people refer to this kind of games as "dating sims", as they are neither sims nor are they about dating. Visual Novel or Love Adventure seems to be a more fitting english term for them.

Unfortunately that's saving little face considering the genre is pretty much a milking project used in the japanese market solely for money. And for guys who can't get real dates.

[system11]

It's about time some of the older genres were revived really. Sidescroll beater for example, and none of that 3d facing in any direction crap - it just doesn't work properly. Use polypeople by all means, but limit their attacks to left and right, and don't put any bullshit Tekken dial-a-move mechanics in. We want fast, we want furious, and we want needless violence employed against clusters of braindead gangmembers.

And I want it on Live Arcade, so I can play it with a friend.

[sethsez]

Honestly, of all the classic genres I'd say Streets of Rage-ish sidescrolling beat-em-ups have aged the worst. Ones that take place strictly on a single 2D plane (say, Comix Zone) have aged much more gracefully.

[raiden]

Unfortunately that's saving little face considering the genre is pretty much a milking project used in the japanese market solely for money. And for guys who can't get real dates.

it´s pretty obvious you haven´t played any of these, but just have a (wrong) idea of what they´re like.

[Shatterhand]

I have to say something to defend the so called "Dating sims" too.

I am not a guy who can't get real dates (Me and my girlfriend will be celebrating our 3rd aniversary very soon), nor I am japanese.

I only played one of those games though. It came in a CD-R a friend of mine gave to me with a few obscure games.

One of them was a game called "True Love", which was in english. When I first begun playing the game, I got so hooked on it, I just couldn't stop playing it until 5 hours later, and the whole history has ended.

Yeah, the Hentai stuff is really of bad taste IMO, but the "game" was real interesting NOT because of the hentai, but because of the story-telling and stuff. It's not much a proper game indeed, but I really enjoyed it.

Few months later I played the game again, and I found the story went into a completely different direction this time.

That's my only experience in the genre, and I must admit I actually enjoyed it. No, it's not exactly a "game", there's no twitch action, not much strategy involved, but it was still more enjoyable than most RPGs I had ever played, if this says something.



There's another game which I believe couldn't be classified as a Dating Sim, but still played very similar to True Love: Princess Maker. I played a little of this game on the MSX, then the sequel on PC, and I am still gobsmacked to this day how SO MANY DIFFERENT ways the story can go. I've played through Princess Maker 3 times, and each time the game was COMPLETELY different. And I know there are a LOT of stuff still to be done (I never got to meet the king, though I've met the Prince a couple of times, There was one adventure I couldn't finish, there was a hidden dragon somewhere which I just couldn't meet, and probably a lot of other stuff I don't even have a hint). This game at least has no hentai on it.



And regarding 2D progressive Beat'em ups ... I think there's a lot to do with the genre, it's just that they killed them without any real progress to it. Shmups have evolved a lot in the last years, and those games could have evolved too. To be quite honest, some of the last games on this genre are pretty impressive IMO (Alien Vs. Predator, both Dynamite Deka games, and even the old Streets of Rage 2)

[Benjamin]

Honestly, of all the classic genres I'd say Streets of Rage-ish sidescrolling beat-em-ups have aged the worst. Ones that take place strictly on a single 2D plane (say, Comix Zone) have aged much more gracefully.

I'd disagree, and Comix Zone is an exception due to its unique presentation. Games such as Bad Dudes, Altered Beast, Two Crude Dudes, and so forth have aged horribly and "unplayable" nowadays, to me at least. The only one I'd say that's really playable is Guardian Heroes, but even that "cheats" by allowing for multiple planes to simulate 3-D-ish movement (and even then a number of characters do break the three planes with typical Double Dragon-like movement). No one has really bothered to do much new with the genre, and it's stagnate as a result despite some nice modern releases like Zombie Revenge. I still think an MMORPG in the style of River City Ransom with a complex but playable fighting engine is the way to revive the genre.

[sethsez]

Viewitful Joe was a valiant attempt to revive it, even if the end result wasn't as good as it should have been.

[Middlemoor]

The original Streets of Rage still looks great.



...and if anybody here has played Knights of Valour 2 you'll know that 2D beat 'em ups certainly didn't go out with D&D:SOM.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

I think you could make a passable beat em up. Simply take a character with moves like in a 2d streetfighter game and add ememies. It's a shame that there are so few 2d games anymore, I don't view them as obsolite but many do. Making sprites for hi res is also a daunting task unless you are using hand drawn bases. People seem to think that you can't make a good 2d game anymore but I beg to differ, consider the Metal Slug series. I think they shlould be less worried about power displayes and more worried about original gameplay or at least furthering a genre.

[system11]

...and if anybody here has played Knights of Valour 2 you'll know that 2D beat 'em ups certainly didn't go out with D&D:SOM.

Indeed, but it isn't much improved over (or indeed as good as) Warriors Of Fate, for example. It would be pretty easy to impove on WOF, but hardly anything has tried to. And none of it has had a home port.

[sethsez]

I think you could make a passable beat em up. Simply take a character with moves like in a 2d streetfighter game and add ememies. It's a shame that there are so few 2d games anymore, I don't view them as obsolite but many do. Making sprites for hi res is also a daunting task unless you are using hand drawn bases. People seem to think that you can't make a good 2d game anymore but I beg to differ, consider the Metal Slug series. I think they shlould be less worried about power displayes and more worried about original gameplay or at least furthering a genre.

First, you're not really asking for original gameplay. You're asking for new games with old gameplay.

Second, Metal Slug came out in 96 and really hasn't advanced at all since then. Every game since has been the same thing with new stages and enemies (sometimes we didn't even get that). It's the Mega Man of run 'n guns.

[Dale]

I think you could make a passable beat em up. Simply take a character with moves like in a 2d streetfighter game and add ememies. It's a shame that there are so few 2d games anymore, I don't view them as obsolite but many do. Making sprites for hi res is also a daunting task unless you are using hand drawn bases. People seem to think that you can't make a good 2d game anymore but I beg to differ, consider the Metal Slug series. I think they shlould be less worried about power displayes and more worried about original gameplay or at least furthering a genre.

Check out Beats of Rage or any of its varios mods its pretty much what your describing.

[SuperGrafx]

Second, Metal Slug came out in 96 and really hasn't advanced at all since then. Every game since has been the same thing with new stages and enemies (sometimes we didn't even get that). It's the Mega Man of run 'n guns.

The did introduce new Slug vehicles throughout the series, inventive bosses and a much-needed slide move (in MS5).

[magnum opus]

i'd just like to take this time to point something out

doom 3 plays nothing like
half life 2 which plays nothing like
chronicles of riddick which plays nothing like
deus ex the invisible war which plays nothing like
halo which plays nothing like
serious sam 2 which plays nothing like
battlefield 2 which plays nothing like
rainbow 6 etc

for a more historic perspective we can substitute doom, thief, system shock, strife, space hulk, descent, marathon, battlezone/uprising, hostile waters, maken x, rune, no one lives forever

first person is a camera angle and first person shooter gets applied to anything with a gun and that camera angle, the "genre" is full of games with gameplay at least as different as run'n'gun vs shmups
complaining about fps as a genre is a lot like complaining about all those damn 3rd person games


also Darwinia for the win man

[Frederik]

First of all, it's hard to make a cry for innovation on a shooter focused forum. The shooter genre is a throwback. Shooters are the opposite of innovative (unless you count more bullets as innovation).

Man, this is SO wrong I hardly believe it. Name me one genre that has evolved MORE within its own boundaries than shmups! Look at the beginning, at Xevious, Space Invaders, Galaga etc. and then at DoDonpachi, at Espgaluda, at Garegga, at Psyvariar, Mars Matrix, Shikigami, Perfect Cherry Blossom, Warning Forever, Ikaruga, Darius, Progear, and so on. Racing games, first person shooters, fighting games etc has evolved SHIT compared to shmups.

Throwback my ass. Just because shooters don`t sell this much nowadays, which is because gamers have become crybabies and dumbasses, and belong to one of the oldest genres in videogames doesn`t mean playing Mushimesama is a throwback!

[sethsez]

Racing games, first person shooters, fighting games etc has evolved SHIT compared to shmups.

Bullshit.

[GaijinPunch]

GP's list of most games w/ original gameplay (as of late)

ICO - actually old style "escape the maze" gameplay, but old enough that it's new.
Shadow of the Collosus - another easy style of game. Find boss, find out how to kill it, and do so. Rinse->Repeat. No shitty J-Pop either = brillance.
Katamari Damacy
Jet Set Radio
Shenmue
The fighting game where you win by taking panty shots.

[Twiddle]

Unfortunately that's saving little face considering the genre is pretty much a milking project used in the japanese market solely for money. And for guys who can't get real dates.

it´s pretty obvious you haven´t played any of these, but just have a (wrong) idea of what they´re like.

I'm pretty sure he's known people that play scores of them and how they act in real life and the internet.

[sethsez]

Shenmue

Eh, Omikron did pretty much the same thing a year earlier, and I just see Shenmue as a lateral evolution from PC adventures anyway.

[raiden]

Unfortunately that's saving little face considering the genre is pretty much a milking project used in the japanese market solely for money. And for guys who can't get real dates.

it´s pretty obvious you haven´t played any of these, but just have a (wrong) idea of what they´re like.

I'm pretty sure he's known people that play scores of them and how they act in real life and the internet.

and I´m pretty sure he hasn´t.

[GaijinPunch]

Shenmue

Eh, Omikron did pretty much the same thing a year earlier, and I just see Shenmue as a lateral evolution from PC adventures anyway.

I still haven't seen a game with as much day to day realism. (Except Shenmue 2 of course).

There was another game I was going to add but forgot. I got sick as shit yesterday and have lost half my memory.

I guess I could add Rez. Sure, it's a rail shooter, but adding in the music w/ the game was brilliant. Also hiring REAL musicians instead of people who make gay ass game music to do the soundtrack showed (for a change) a stroke of intelligence.

[sethsez]

I still haven't seen a game with as much day to day realism. (Except Shenmue 2 of course).

Well I guess that depends on how you define realism. I certainly haven't had any conversations like the ones in Shenmue.

Honestly, to me the game felt like a massive RPG town without anything else. The conversations certainly lived up to your average JRPG (for a game so heavily based on detail, you'd think they could fit a conversation tree in here or there).

[Andi]

First of all, it's hard to make a cry for innovation on a shooter focused forum. The shooter genre is a throwback. Shooters are the opposite of innovative (unless you count more bullets as innovation).

Man, this is SO wrong I hardly believe it. Name me one genre that has evolved MORE within its own boundaries than shmups! Look at the beginning, at Xevious, Space Invaders, Galaga etc. and then at DoDonpachi, at Espgaluda, at Garegga, at Psyvariar, Mars Matrix, Shikigami, Perfect Cherry Blossom, Warning Forever, Ikaruga, Darius, Progear, and so on. Racing games, first person shooters, fighting games etc has evolved SHIT compared to shmups.

Throwback my ass. Just because shooters don`t sell this much nowadays, which is because gamers have become crybabies and dumbasses, and belong to one of the oldest genres in videogames doesn`t mean playing Mushimesama is a throwback!

I can tell that you don't play that many other game genres. Sure, every game innovates within its boundaries, but the core game play formula of shooters is completely unchanged. Adding a shield reflect system, or some scoring gimmick isn't a terrible amount of innovation.

To make another example, first person shooters are completely different than they once were. Early FPS games were basically mazes populated with monsters - now compare that to something like Rainbow Six. The goal of the game and the means of achieving that goal are completely different from Doom.

Other genres are full of other examples...

for a more historic perspective we can substitute doom, thief, system shock, strife, space hulk, descent, marathon, battlezone/uprising, hostile waters, maken x, rune, no one lives forever

I'm glad someone mentioned Space Hulk. While terribly flawed, it is very original (still) and severely underrated.

[ahnslaught]

I can only think of two gameplay innovations since the industry went 3d crazy - one good, one bad.

The first one, which I like, is the development of the 3d stealth action genre (MGS, Splinter Cell) - before these, I always felt that 3d action games tried to open up this big world, but left in lots of dead time in between facing enemies or doing something that would completely throw off the pacing of the game. You would kill 10 guys, then be walking around looking for the next batch to kill for 5 minutes (or more if you got lost), rinse and repeat. At least with stealth games, they kind of made it exciting for you to be either sitting there or walking around empty places by adding the fear of getting caught into the game.

The second one, which I absolutely hate, are unlockables. I don't know if this would even classify as a gameplay innovation, but since it's a pretty common way to try to extend the life of a game, I thought it fits. At its simplest form, it's just an excuse to try to get you to play the same crap over and over again. Other crappy games force you to look around every single nook and cranny to find something - gee what fun that is!