Nearly impossible?

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:00 pm

Randomly searching the net for those neat DoDonpachi sprite rips (anyone knows where those were again?), I found this Wikipedia article about Hibachi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibachi_%28DoDonPachi%29

And the most interesting part was this:

________

"Criticism

Although, as previously stated, defeating this particularly tricky enemy is a sign of exceptional skill, a large number of players debate that the fight occurring during Dai Ou Jou is a mere way to trick the user into wasting large quantities of continues trying to beat an almost impossibly hard boss. This opinion has also been stressed by top-ranked players during a number of interviews."

________

Were the few replays I`ve seen in which someone has beaten Hibachi in DDP:DOJ were tool assisted? I haven`t played DOJ so far (though I really want to), but are there parts in games that ARE nearly impossibly hard?

What I was wondering: Who cares beating Hibachi if you have to credit-feed anyway? You can`t get to it by slamming coins into the slot (correct me if I am wrong, but at least this isn`t possible in DDP), so IF you get to fight him, why would you want to reset your highscore?

And who defines "nearly impossible" anyways? There are no links that lead to the interviews of those "top-ranked players". Hearing about japanese top players that complain that a developer that produces hardcore games made a game that is actually TOO hardcore is something I never came across till now. Any thoughts?

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:07 pm

That's one of the reasons why a Shmups Wiki is not a good idea: while I have no doubt that it'll be well maintained and somewhat informative, a lot of misinformation is also spread by these things, with no evidence to back up said claims. I'd actually like to see these interviews myself.

As for Daioujou Hibachi, I don't think that the record scores done are tool assisted, so Hibachi is most definitely possible, just extremely hard for the average player.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:54 pm

only one player was able to kill DOJ hibachi without losing a life so i think its fair to say that it really is nearly impossible

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:57 pm

If someone did it without losing a life, so it's COMPLETELY POSSIBLE, but like Icarus said, extremely hard.

Unless a game throws you in a situation where there's just NO WAY to escape but die, it's possible to beat the game.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:12 pm

The trick to beating DOJ's Hibachi is maintaining your hyper throughout, that's the only thing that does any damage. If you trigger it at the start you should only go through each pattern once, maybe twice each before it goes into anger mode and does the notorious helix pattern. If you can't get hypers going it's going to mean your ass.

I will say that Hibachi does have one impossible pattern, the very first needle spray when the spirit form comes out. No one dodges that, they either drop a bomb or use a hyper. I would argue that it's the hardest pattern in shooters. The only time I've seen it dodged was with that replay made with the programmable stick. The pattern is just too fast and random and only blind luck with twitching around or flying straight up will save you. Boo to Cave for that one, but I think the final helix is reasonable.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:29 pm

If a programmable stick can do it ,why a human being wouldn't be able to do it?

If there's ONE way through the pattern, then it's possible to dodge it.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:29 pm

just to clarify: nearly impossible=extremely hard (but possible)

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:56 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:so IF you get to fight him, why would you want to reset your highscore?

If you continue, DDP will still record your fist high score, and then record the second score with the +1 at the end (or how many continues you did, up to 9). At least this is what happens on my JPN PCB.

Icarus wrote:That's one of the reasons why a Shmups Wiki is not a good idea: while I have no doubt that it'll be well maintained and somewhat informative, a lot of misinformation is also spread by these things, with no evidence to back up said claims.

You can make this claim about wiki in general. The accuracy will hold up if there are enough interested people to maintain it. Unfortunally shmups are a very small nitche audience.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:03 pm

Shatterhand wrote:If a programmable stick can do it ,why a human being wouldn't be able to do it?

If there's ONE way through the pattern, then it's possible to dodge it.

When they use a programmable stick, they are stage-selecting to it. I think when you stage select, it uses the same random seed so the bullet spray is the same (or they keep loading the same game to reseed the random number generator).

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:13 pm

i dont think any of DOJ hibachis attack patterns are random?!

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:19 pm

NTSC-J wrote:The trick to beating DOJ's Hibachi is maintaining your hyper throughout, that's the only thing that does any damage. If you trigger it at the start you should only go through each pattern once, maybe twice each before it goes into anger mode and does the notorious helix pattern. If you can't get hypers going it's going to mean your ass.

I will say that Hibachi does have one impossible pattern, the very first needle spray when the spirit form comes out. No one dodges that, they either drop a bomb or use a hyper. I would argue that it's the hardest pattern in shooters. The only time I've seen it dodged was with that replay made with the programmable stick. The pattern is just too fast and random and only blind luck with twitching around or flying straight up will save you. Boo to Cave for that one, but I think the final helix is reasonable.

the needle spread and the helix are certainly the worst by far, everything else is humanly doable.
dumb luck will get you nowhere agaisnt the helix, so at least the omake player can read it. what is more horrible against the helix is how long it lasts, you will only need 2 bombs or hypers to not die against the needle spread but the helix seems to last forever.
i have never had any success against the helix myself, and i have tried.. i have not even a clue on how to try it, unlike doom's final pattern. it wouldn't be so bad if the blue bullets didn't change their curvature as if there were wind rafales.

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:20 pm

What's hibachi? Is it the name of the last boss?

I've had DOJ since it came out and I've never heard of this term.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:08 pm

sffan wrote:What's hibachi? Is it the name of the last boss?

I've had DOJ since it came out and I've never heard of this term.

Yeah, and also in DoDonpachi; judging from this Wiki entry, it also appeared in Donpachi, but it was nameless at that time. But judging from the name of the series you fight him over and over again, until it`s "peaceful death".

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:11 pm

chtimi-CLA wrote: dumb luck will get you nowhere agaisnt the helix, so at least the omake player can read it.

"Reading" a pattern is a nice description of what experienced players do in shmups - much more fitting than simply "dodging".

Anyways, what is a programmable joystick?

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:51 pm

If a programmable stick can do it ,why a human being wouldn't be able to do it?

there are movements human beings are incapable of doing. I don´t know how this programmable stick was programmed, but let´s just assume a comparatively easy task like moving left in one frame, right in the next frame, and alternating in this rhythm (30 times left, 30 times right within one second), this would be as task physically impossible to perform for a human player. That´s just a simple example, more complicated ones are easily conceivable.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:01 am

raiden wrote: there are movements human beings are incapable of doing. I don´t know how this programmable stick was programmed, but let´s just assume a comparatively easy task like moving left in one frame, right in the next frame, and alternating in this rhythm (30 times left, 30 times right within one second), this would be as task physically impossible to perform for a human player. That´s just a simple example, more complicated ones are easily conceivable.

you havent seen the XII stag DVD have you

some crazy stick handling going on there (ok maybe not 60FPS)..

hibachi has been 1lifed so whats with the discussion, its doable - end of discussion?
sure it might take a big portion of skills, strategy and luck but so what..

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:04 am

Can someone point me to a video showing a fight against him?

To be quite honest, I have never seen DOJ in action.

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:10 am

Shatterhand wrote:Can someone point me to a video showing a fight against him?

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=563

I still think Ketsui's DOOM fits the 'nearly impossible' tag better than Daioujou's Hibachi. ^_-

Shalashaska · Post by **Shalashaska** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:22 am

What about the end of Death Label's 2nd loop where the dual Hibachi fight is supposedly 'unrestrained'? Would this be considered in the realm of impossible (I've not seen or heard much on this fight, does anybody have any information)?

And that video is um......not sure whether to say 'wow' or 'bs'.

I've seen BGR-44 do some incredible things though so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:48 am

Oh, come on, that last boss is a pussy!

Seriously, I would like to see someone who don't bomb on that. I can barely see the first patterns because the guy just keeps bombing, hehe.

BTW Raiden ,what you said just makes sense indeed

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:05 am

Shalashaska wrote:What about the end of Death Label's 2nd loop where the dual Hibachi fight is supposedly 'unrestrained'?

That IS Death Label's Double Hibachi.

Shalashaska · Post by **Shalashaska** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:09 am

After watching that DL video again....those patterns move a lot slower using Shotia compared to using Exy. Never really noticed that before.

Anyway, be sure to watch this one too Shatterhand (if you haven't seen it already). It's the single Hibachi fight you get at the end of the 2nd loop of the Arcade version/mode.

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=320

Icarus wrote:
Shalashaska wrote:What about the end of Death Label's 2nd loop where the dual Hibachi fight is supposedly 'unrestrained'?
That IS Death Label's Double Hibachi.

I'm talking about the fight at the end of Death Label's 2nd loop. Supposedly the patterns are different and much harder.

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:16 am

Icarus wrote:
Shatterhand wrote:Can someone point me to a video showing a fight against him?
http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=563

I still think Ketsui's DOOM fits the 'nearly impossible' tag better than Daioujou's Hibachi. ^_-

The last set of spreads are quick, side-swiping and layered. Not to mention from both sides. Ima's video from super-play gives a good impression of how many ships lost can solely occur on that boss. He nearly runs out too.

Overall the Dual Hibachi fight is challenging throughout, but the end of Special Loop in Ketsui fight is sure a run for your money.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:22 am

Players have since found a way to lead DOOM's final pattern to their advantage. The guy I saw beat it the other day lost only one life to the pattern and for half of it had juked it out so well he was just parked on the bottom right while it completely missed him. No one has beaten DOJ Hibachi's needle spread by simply dodging it. Every superplay video I've seen they use a bomb or hyper, so I'm gonna say it's still impossibly hard.

I would like to see the Death Label final Hibachi battle tho. I got to the loop once and the patterns weren't any different, except that you didn't have the 5 hypers to start and your bomb healed the boss like crazy. Even using the spread bomb will almost completely refill the life bar :/

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:06 am

Everytime I see Ketsui replays I wonder how many people say DOJ would be the hardest CAVE game. Some of the Ketsui patterns are so mindbending you get sick just watching them - transforming loops, bullets that travel downward and back again, coming from left and right

It`s not so much that you`re simply showered in a random spray of bullets, but those patterns seems so HARD to react to properly because they are so unusualy and irritating. Inbetween the levels it looks mostly like DDP to me, but man, those bossfights are tough shit.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:51 am

yeah ketsui is horrible in different ways, curly patterns, attacks from the side,..
DOJ is more throwing a mess of bullets at you (at least it looks like that at first)

Varuna · Post by **Varuna** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:38 pm

If nobody has made it through the needle pattern, this one must not be a human play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SsPD2hm ... onpachi%20

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:01 pm

Varuna wrote:If nobody has made it through the needle pattern, this one must not be a human play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SsPD2hm ... onpachi%20

even says in the video its tool assisted.. could have been human tho, spend enough time memorising/timing it and youre there.. he doesnt do any 60fps dodges or anything like that

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:13 pm

"As the disclaimer states, it uses the PS2 ComaCon, a large macro-enabled controller."

Was in the comments section - this is what appear as "Warning" on the video.

Varuna · Post by **Varuna** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:31 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:"As the disclaimer states, it uses the PS2 ComaCon, a large macro-enabled controller."

Was in the comments section - this is what appear as "Warning" on the video.

oh...I noticed ComaCon, but I had no idea what it was.