true hi-res

[krispyfi]

so, when does everybody think that cave (or anyone else) will start putting out 2d shooters in hi-res, like the gorgeous guilty gear series? what's stopping them? will it make life easier or harder for the people at home? these questions have been haunting me lately, as i work on my tate setup.

(meanwhile, my friend is secretly hoping that konami will rescan all of the original artwork in hi-res to make an hd version of castlevania - sotn.)

[neorichieb1971]

Cave use very similar hardware for each game.

They would have to start using Naomi or atomiswave for the kind of visuals you are talking about.

[roker]

Cave use very similar hardware for each game.

They would have to start using Naomi or atomiswave for the kind of visuals you are talking about.

Atomiswave is pretty much Dead

it's going to be the other Dreamcast based hardware if anything

The Aurora:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=732


maybe even the Lindberg

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=731

[neorichieb1971]

I was talking from a technical point of view. Naomi and ATW are probably the weakest systems that could be used for hi-res 2D graphics.

A shooter on lindburgh? Thats highly unlikely

[roker]

A shooter on lindburgh? Thats highly unlikely

not if they GRev does an Under Defeat 2

[louisg]

Here's to hoping future shmups are developed on something other than Lindbergh, or at least that future Lindbergh games are smoother than HOTD4 =(

[D]

so, when does everybody think that cave (or anyone else) will start putting out 2d shooters in hi-res, like the gorgeous guilty gear series? what's stopping them? will it make life easier or harder for the people at home? these questions have been haunting me lately, as i work on my tate setup.

(meanwhile, my friend is secretly hoping that konami will rescan all of the original artwork in hi-res to make an hd version of castlevania - sotn.)

I have repeatedly asked this question here years ago. We now have Guilty Gear and Fist of the north star.
Patience, 2D will survive and hi-res will eventually come for all 2D games.
The question indeed is, why not now? Why not 4 years ago? Is cave the only 2D company left? They will survive. They could indeed make new versions of all of their old games. How about DonPachi Hi-res. They just leave everything intact and upgrade the graphics! Cave, you listening?
title: Donpachi Superior Edition

[Frederik]

I`m not so much into this resolution discussion; what do you mean with Hi-Res? Looking it up, DoDonpachi is 320x240, that`s - uh, QUITE low-res. While I would have serious complaints playing Quake with that kinda resolution, `Pachi plays fine this way. And that grainy look adds to the charm of 2D games (besides playing shmups in MAME I mostly play GBA and DS, so I am pretty much used to it).

But seeing how detailed the sprites and backdrops in Cave already are, seeing them in high resolution would kick major ass all over the place.

So what dimensions does high-res have to you?

[Kiken]

So what dimensions does high-res have to you?

The "hi-res" being referred to is 640x480 (or 480x640 for tate games).

[visuatrox]

Well I don't think we are ever going to see high resolution (640x480) completely sprite based 2D shooters. High resolution sprites on 3D cellshaded backgrounds is much more likely.

Sure Guilty Gear looks great but the Atomiswave hardware is very limited when it comes to 2D. Guilty Gears sprites don't use many colours, and have a low amount of animation frames. But the game looks so good anyway because of good art direction and design.

I don't know if there is any technical limitations, but it appears to me like all modern graphic processorn handles 2D much worse than 3D. The few attempts I have seen at high resolution 2D games, have all suffered from low amount of frames and colours, and also misaligned blocks (so that "sprites" overlaps with a few pixels).

[Thunder Force]

True hi-res would be a PS3-based arcade board running at 1080x1920 resolution in tate...

[mice]

What resolution is Cave running their latest games in then?

[Vincere]

Some players should stick to playing games seriously. Caring about the 60hz/RGB/tate/Composite/Hi res shit that much is just pure fucking crap.
Plain and simple.

Since when does anybody need so much stuffs to play. That shiload of technic details is seriously:
1)beyond me
2)getting me out of my nerves

No offense to anyone though.

[Frederik]

Since when does anybody need so much stuffs to play.

I guess when you play shmups seriously you need to see what the hell is going on, so if you have a bad monitor or bad settings or whatever, this can hinder your progress. I used to play on my PS2 and a shitty TV and even tated it gave me MAJOR headaches. Not that this is a big loss - now I stick to my cheapo lcd monitor, my loved Saitek pad and DDP in MAME. No hardware hassle this way.

Anyway nobody forces you to read those topics, let alone post there.

[GaijinPunch]

Since when does anybody need so much stuffs to play.

Since graphics were ever a concern in games.

Anyways, Atomiswave is a really poor example here. Some, if not most (I can't think of any other than Guilty Gear and Dolphin Blue) are displayed in fake low-res, or some type of combination of high res backgrounds and low-res character sprites. From what little I've seen Metal Slug 6 and NG Colloseum are the worst offenders.

Cave's games look fine as they are. Quit bitching, and let them do what they do better than anyone.

[louisg]

Cave's games look fine as they are. Quit bitching, and let them do what they do better than anyone.

It would still be neat to see a shooter with high res 2d art (Cobra Command style art? =)). I don't think this is "bitching", and I don't see why you should be threatened by the suggestion.

[coolix]

Most of these shumps are 2D hi-res (every NAOMI conversion is):
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/2006/03/ ... oters.html

[Valgar]

CAVE doesn't even draw their sprites anymore (Progear was the last one), they are all pre-rendered. AKA everything is modeled in 3d first. The drawn backgrounds would have to be a lot bigger though.

The reason no one does it is because it is too expensive and time consuming to make a high-res 2d sprite based game compared to just using 3d models.

[GaijinPunch]

Most of these shumps are 2D hi-res (every NAOMI conversion is):
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/2006/03/ ... oters.html

There are no true high res DC shooters. There aren't even that many bitmap based ones, and the ones that are (Mars Matrix, Gigawing, TSS, Gunbird 2, and Bangaioh) are low res games. Not sure about the doujin ones, but as Last Hope will be out on the AES, it's safe to say it'll be low res as well.

I think Cave would go 3D before high res sprites. I can't imagine the current hardware not taking a massive hit. Sprites that are twice as big will take up twice as much memory.

[GaijinPunch]

oops

[Frederik]

CAVE doesn't even draw their sprites anymore (Progear was the last one), they are all pre-rendered. AKA everything is modeled in 3d first. The drawn backgrounds would have to be a lot bigger though.

The reason no one does it is because it is too expensive and time consuming to make a high-res 2d sprite based game compared to just using 3d models.

Now THATS an answer that I understand. So basically, they prerender them and convert them to bitmaps, until the day comes technology will be able to handle polygons this detailed?

I think Ikaruga is a very fine example of an excellent polygon-based shmup; although I doubt most developers will put this much effort into their graphics.

[D]

Nice thread,
Nobody is bitching about Cave.
We all know it's innevitable.
"Under Defeat, hands over ears"
Fuck 3D
"Under Defeat, lower your hands"
2D will live, 480X640
The future is now

[BulletMagnet]

CAVE doesn't even draw their sprites anymore (Progear was the last one), they are all pre-rendered. AKA everything is modeled in 3d first.

IIRC, they actually started doing this some time before Progear...here's an excerpt from "The World of ESPRa.de" from GP's site:

G-Kita: Was there any difficulties in converting the drawings to pixels, for either the characters or enemies?

Inoue: Mmm... well, the characters on the whole maybe. From the beginning everything was hand drawn, but then we found out that they'd move like battleships, so it was then decided to go with CG. Even the first boss was hand drawn, but eventually everything was scrapped.

G-Kita: To express the clothing animations, if you used six drawings when the character leans to the right, you'd obviously have to use six more when they lean to the left, and you've quickly got an enormous amount of pictures. So, didn't you build them in polygons, and then break them down into 2D?

Inoue: Yes. When we were considering what to do with our allotment of CG, we agreed to using as much as possible in the most visible places, and cutting as much as possible in the others.

[GaijinPunch]

I think Ikaruga is a very fine example of an excellent polygon-based shmup;

I do to, but Ikaruga is a tricky one. I think they did what needs to be done in more 3D games, especially ones w/ scrolling backgrounds. Don't worry about detail in the back, just take attention away from it. Other than the starts of the stages, when in Ikaruga do you have time to look at the backgrounds? Of course, there's a good amount of detail on the ships and enemies, but it's worth noting the way they divert attention.

On the flip side, look at Border Down. I think it's quite well done, but there are some parts that need work -- stage 2 backgrounds (the rocky parts) are really bad, for starters. There's no gigantic spaceship to take our eyes off of it.

[mice]

Sprites that are twice as big will take up twice as much memory

That'll be 4 times the amount of memory, actually.

Since no one answered my last question, what resolution is hi-res then?

[Macaw]

Since no one answered my last question, what resolution is hi-res then?

So what dimensions does high-res have to you?

The "hi-res" being referred to is 640x480 (or 480x640 for tate games).

[GaijinPunch]

Since no one answered my last question, what resolution is hi-res then?

Well, I meant twice as big in bytes, but I guess twice as big insize is indeed, 4x as big in bytes.

In arcade hardware terms:
Low res = 15khz (All Cave games, 2D Psikyo games, Neo Geo, etc)
High res = 31khz (3D Naomi, Lindberg, some Atomiswave, etc.)

Then, there's "fake" high res (somewhat recently coined term), which is sprites meant to run at 15khz, but run at 15khz interlaced (to simulate 31khz). There's a handful of Atomiswave games that do this in the arcades, and most recent ports to current gen hardware do as well.

[Valgar]

CAVE doesn't even draw their sprites anymore (Progear was the last one), they are all pre-rendered. AKA everything is modeled in 3d first.

IIRC, they actually started doing this some time before Progear...here's an excerpt from "The World of ESPRa.de" from GP's site:

Right, I'm just saying Progear is the last one with drawn sprites. Dangun Feveron is 100% drawn sprites though.

Now THATS an answer that I understand. So basically, they prerender them and convert them to bitmaps, until the day comes technology will be able to handle polygons this detailed?

I think Ikaruga is a very fine example of an excellent polygon-based shmup; although I doubt most developers will put this much effort into their graphics.

Well I think the technology is good enough, but they would have to make their games on much more expensive hardware.

I agree though, Ikaruga nailed it.

[Balzac]

So basically Cave games are true 2d backgrounds and CG->2d sprites?

I'm guessing that there would be no extra work required in creating high res sprites then. However that would mean they would also have to create high res backgrounds and that could be a bit of a problem in terms of finances/development.

Of course they could always convert those from CG as well, although imagine it would look like total crap and at that point they might as well switch to 3d. The 2-d aesthetics would be totally lost (see: Donkey Kong Country).

[GaijinPunch]

So basically Cave games are true 2d backgrounds and CG->2d sprites?

The backgrounds (some, anyway) could be drawn as well. It seems that this day and age, other than tweaks, pixel by pixel drawings are a thing of the past.

I'm guessing that there would be no extra work required in creating high res sprites then.

Assuming everything is created from some tools, that is right.

However that would mean they would also have to create high res backgrounds and that could be a bit of a problem in terms of finances/development.

This is the problem though. Not everyone does this. If I'm not mistaken, Neo Geo Colloseum is a prime example (I could be wrong, as I hate, and don't keep up w/ 2D fighters). The character sprites make up god knows how many bitmaps. Hundreds apiece, I'm sure. Obviously that's a huge undertaking. So, what'd they do? High res backgrounds on low-res sprites. Metal Slug 6 is supposedly like this as well. There are of course, other mixing and matching. Tales of Destiny 2 has high res character sprites on what appear to be low-res backgrounds. It's not a terrible outcome, but I find it inferior to the other games. The characers are sharp and shiney, while the backgrounds are a little blurry. (TOD2 does have other graphical attrocities though). Growlanser 2-4 are great examples of why you shouldn't mix low and high res bitmaps.

Of course they could always convert those from CG as well, although imagine it would look like total crap and at that point they might as well switch to 3d.

I don't think that's why though. They can always make them look like 2D sprites. They've just chosen to not draw them these days. It's gotta be the taxation on the system. Look at all the slowdown there is already.

Let's also not forget, Ikeda who's the main programmer for the micro hit-box Cave games, is an old school shooting game fan. He said in a short interview that "I don't get bored of these games". Here's hoping he doesn't anytime soon.