Price on BVM 20E1E?

[andykara2003]

Hi all - not selling but my wife has understandably asked me to trim down the ridiculous amount of CRTs that have taken over the house over the years. I'm making a case for keeping the BVM based on the fact that it's already worth a lot more than when I bought it (for £200) & that these seem gaining value consistently and will probably continue to do so in the future.

What do people here think these are worth at the moment & how does the future look?

[Guspaz]

There's a BVM-20F1U (the lower-end US version of your monitor) listed on eBay for $5,000 USD right now. That sounds a bit high to me, since the 20F1/E1 are 15 kHz monitors only. But we can see that the PVM-20L2 (a 15 kHz PVM) sell for around $1200-1500 USD. So I would expect your monitor to fall somewhere in that range. The 20L5 seems to sell roughly in the middle ($2750 USD), and that's a multi-sync monitor (capable of 240p through 1080i), so I'd say is more valuable than that BVM, so maybe that also helps figure out a likely range.

[GGunner]

A sale price is different from it's worth. If you want top dollar, you sell on a site like Ebay and ship, at least that will get you most money here in the US. I did see a BVM-20E1U w/o the control unit sell for $900 on a non-Ebay auction site, and they can still be found for less if you look around, so there is no absolute, objective monetary value.

[philexile]

How many hours are recorded in the STATUS menu? That will say a lot as to it’s value.

The “E” is one of the rarest BVMs produced — I think there were about 500 or so. These are “evaluation” monitors and have 1000 TV lines instead of 900 like the F, and 800 like the 20L5. Each is a different tube, with different aperture grille.

[SuperSpongo]

Each is a different tube, with different aperture grille.

This is not true, at least not for the F1E and the L5. They both have the same tube and I suspect that the E1E does as well (M49LCB21X).

See also
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64884

[philexile]

You’re 100% wrong. While the tubes are interchangeable, they are different:

20L5: I have to check on this one - it used the same tube as the 20G1, which is also listed as 800 TV lines.

I spoke to Pat about this and he said that it’s possible Sony started replacing the tube with 20/21X if they had them on hand, but this wasn’t the original intent.

20F1: M49LCB20X/21X (20/21 depends on the region)

20E1: M49LCB22X

How do I “know” for sure:

1. I have owned and repaired each of these models.

2. The tubes each have a sticker with the number, and the tube is also listed in the service manual.

From the 20L5 manual:



From the 20F1 manual:



3. I confirmed all this information with the head of Sony service in CA before he retired and the division was shuttered a few years back.

In any case: yes, the BVM-20E1 does have a slightly higher-res tube, unique to this SD model. The tube was also used in the HDM-20E, but that monitor doesn’t work with standard definition.

The E1 chassis is also designed slightly differently. If I recall correctly the PA board is different from what was used in the 20F.

You should confirm the STATUS hours and be clear when selling this that it is the premium standard definition BVM. Good luck

[SuperSpongo]

Fair enough, thanks for the info!

[philexile]

No problem.

andykara2003, please let us know what other tubes you have and what your using them for. If you have BVMs, be sure to confirm their hours also. Maybe we can help trim down that collection.

A note about BVM hours: typically Sony would replace these tubes at 30–35k hours. That said, I’ve seen monitors with double that that “look” good — but their emissions were certainly weakened. I *think* the BVM chassis may compensate for a weaker tube, but I could be wrong. Also, this would mean the tube was being driven harder, further shortening its lifespan.

Sometimes the recorded hours aren’t accurate as Sony would replace them. I’ve seen many BVMs that have 60, 90, or 120+ hours recorded. These are typically units that have had a tube replaced once or multiple times. This is usually when the monitors were “retired” and sent off to auction or e-cycle. Example: a tube has hit 67k hours and the owner didn’t want to pay for a replacement.

Also, more of a warning for people buying PVMs or BVMs —

• PVMs: these do not keep track of the hours. Any time you buy, you’re taking a risk unless the seller can verify the tube emissions. More on that later.

• BVMs (Evergreen & D series): these do record hours, but sometimes the tube has been replaced. Again, best to have the seller confirm the emissions on the tube.

• BVMs (A Series): these also track hours, but can specifically track the CRT hours. This was so that a tech could reset the CRT hours when a tube was replaced. This can be problematic now though since sellers can also reset the CRT hours. Example: if you see a A series on eBay with 57k operational hours, but 5 CRT hours, it’s likely been reset without a tube replacement. Again, have the seller confirm the tube emissions.

• Checking emissions: this can be done with a tube rejuvenation unit — B&K 467 and Sencore CR7000 are popular ones, each with pluses and minuses. Both emissions and “life” should be tested. The results will give you an approximate idea as to the tube health.

• “The tube looks like new or like it has been replaced” — I see this all the time in listings and rarely can this be backed up. Ask questions!

Example: I serviced a 20M4U that was described this way by the buyer to the buyer. The first thing I did was test the tube emissions and saw that this was easily a tube with 70k+ hours — not even close to new. That said, the tube didn’t look dim, which is why I suspect the Sony chassis would compensate for weak tubes when possible — eventually they will just stop producing a good picture entirely.

[Guspaz]

Considering the 20E1E can only display 15 kHz content (I don't see any reference to anything else in the manual), is there actually any benefit to the tube being higher TVL? Personally I'd actually consider that a downside, ultra sharp 240p doesn't look great on a CRT, IMO. The 20L5 might be the lowest TVL of the three, but the ability to natively display content from 480p/720p/1080i consoles is way more valuable than the extra 200 TVL.

[fernan1234]

Great info in this topic.

Recently I've heard some say that the whole E vs F distinction was basically a marketing trick by Sony to charge studios with deeper wallets more for the same tube, and that at most the Es were simple set up with the chassis making the picture look a bit sharper (and a bit less bright as a result).

I always thought that it was more likely that those hi resolution 20'' and 14'' tubes were indeed coming from the same production line, and were only sorted during quality assessment testing where testers found that individual tubes passed higher ranges of TV line tests and such than others, slapping different labels on them and sending them up to different model assemblies. This would be in line with what Sony continued to do with different tiering in their professional LCD and OLED panels later (where the E vs F distinction was maintained, and where it did make a difference in some ways). During the CRT times the tiering also went down to G and H models, though I'm sure that the tiering there was not only down to the tube alone but also other qualities and features of the corresponding chassis.

I wonder why there were no such special "super grade 1" tubes singled out for the D- and A-series BVMs though. More stuff for speculation.

At the end of the day we can only guess what Sony was doing exactly. Nowadays what should matter most in assessing the value of these monitors is the information we can directly see from their current performance as Phil suggested.

Considering the 20E1E can only display 15 kHz content (I don't see any reference to anything else in the manual), is there actually any benefit to the tube being higher TVL?

My guess is that these "Evergreen" BVMs (gonna start calling them this too!) came out during the short last years of the 90s, right as digital and HD was becoming much more important, and maybe many pros were already working with down scan converted content where they still wanted to evaluate with as much detail as possible. Actually, even for just SD I'd say that it's nice to have a more resolving picture. Black & white security monitors also often featured high resolution tubes, where more resolution matters a lot for obvious reasons. 240p was of course not a standard, so the question of where that looks better is a separate issue and will also come down to taste.

[matt]

Considering the 20E1E can only display 15 kHz content (I don't see any reference to anything else in the manual), is there actually any benefit to the tube being higher TVL? Personally I'd actually consider that a downside, ultra sharp 240p doesn't look great on a CRT, IMO. The 20L5 might be the lowest TVL of the three, but the ability to natively display content from 480p/720p/1080i consoles is way more valuable than the extra 200 TVL.

For gaming that's certainly true, but in a professional setting I'm sure it would make a difference.

[andykara2003]

Wow, thanks all - I just came back to the thread, great info here. Mine has done about 17000 hours. I'm thinking about selling my NEC XV29+, not sure on these. As far as I can tell they're much rarer in the UK than in the US. We only see them come up once in a blue moon on UK eBay.

[philexile]

Considering the 20E1E can only display 15 kHz content (I don't see any reference to anything else in the manual), is there actually any benefit to the tube being higher TVL?

I had an F and E sitting next to one another after calibration. The E was slightly sharper and brighter. Did it matter to me? Not really – but it matters to a lot of people out there.

Personally I'd actually consider that a downside, ultra sharp 240p doesn't look great on a CRT, IMO.

It all depends on what you prefer. I have a PVM-1910 that is very low TV line – I think maybe 350? – and I love the look of it.

The 20L5 might be the lowest TVL of the three, but the ability to natively display content from 480p/720p/1080i consoles is way more valuable than the extra 200 TVL.

Off the bat I just want to say I hate the 20L5. I know it is easy, and has a lot of inputs, but it is assembled in a cheap way and the D20 is by far the better of the two monitors. Also you really have no idea how many hours are clocked. I'm always surprised when people drop a large amount of money down for one from a random eBay seller.

480p yes, but I've never understood the appeal of 720p/1080i on a 4:3 20" tube.

Recently I've heard some say that the whole E vs F distinction was basically a marketing trick by Sony to charge studios with deeper wallets more for the same tube, and that at most the Es were simple set up with the chassis making the picture look a bit sharper (and a bit less bright as a result).

No – and think about that. Sony, a hugely reputable company in the Broadcast world to this day, would consider essentially defrauding their customer base to make a slightly higher margin? No way. This is silly conjecture at best.

The tubes are different and the chassis has some modifications. Anyone can see this for themselves by looking in the service manuals.

I always thought that it .... corresponding chassis.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. The aperture grille is behind the glass in the tube. CRTs – especially Sony CRTs – are totally different from modern displays. There isn't a real comparison here.

I wonder why there were no such special "super grade 1" tubes singled out for the D- and A-series BVMs though. More stuff for speculation.

The E series didn't sell well – it was expensive to produce and expensive to buy. Also, the D32/A32 and D24/A24 were available and featured E class tubes instead.

My guess is that these "Evergreen" BVMs (gonna start calling them this too!)

Sony called them that. These were sold well into the 2000s. I recall seeing one dated 2004.

Mine has done about 17000 hours.

Nice – that is very pristine for 2022.

I'm thinking about selling my NEC XV29+, not sure on these. As far as I can tell they're much rarer in the UK than in the US. We only see them come up once in a blue moon on UK eBay.

Whatever you decide: take advantage of the market and make your wife happy.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

But we can see that the PVM-20L2 (a 15 kHz PVM) sell for around $1200-1500 USD.

Wat, like I'm dying here. I thought I got a good and fair price for the 20L2 at $350 in June 2019 and was basically why I created an account. What tube does the 20L2 take? I feel a need to protect the down payment to my house.

The 20L5 might be the lowest TVL of the three, but the ability to natively display content from 480p/720p/1080i consoles is way more valuable than the extra 200 TVL.

Off the bat I just want to say I hate the 20L5. I know it is easy, and has a lot of inputs, but it is assembled in a cheap way and the D20 is by far the better of the two monitors. Also you really have no idea how many hours are clocked. I'm always surprised when people drop a large amount of money down for one from a random eBay seller.

480p yes, but I've never understood the appeal of 720p/1080i on a 4:3 20" tube.

I mean, you're an educated and rational person and maybe like me in thinking 20" is small when I had a larger CRT in my bedroom. Average Americh person watches My Life in Gaming video with high production values (made when PVMs were cheap and plentiful to be fair) and NEEDS a professional video monitor for the ULTIMATE EXPERIENCE and EVEN BETTER if it can play games in HD. Race to the bottom for 9" monitors now and shipping "as-is" from Japan. I typed "pvm" into Craigslist after seeing the term on Reddit and got lucky (but very dumb for not buying all of them).

The dumbest thing is, I have a Dell LCD monitor my employer game me and a 42" Panasonic Plasma television for almost nothing. They both have 4:3 modes and take RGB at 240p, 480i and 480p in csync, h+v sync and sync over green forms. I don't play on the PVM anymore. I want a 9" instead for test bench. The plasma look comes close enough to CRT that I like it and consumer JVC CRT is more nostalgic. JVC also has thicker scanlines but not my thing. RGB is great and all but it can be a little hard to tell the difference over YPbPr - that has no sync issues - and YPbPr is probably better for consoles that come with native digital video out.

Sorry for rant.

[SuperSpongo]

What tube does the 20L2 take? I feel a need to protect the down payment to my house.

Some form of the M49KGH11X like a couple of other 600TVL models. As we learned in this thread, it can slightly vary, but the "M49KGH--" part is important.

[nissling]

My guess is that these "Evergreen" BVMs (gonna start calling them this too!) came out during the short last years of the 90s, right as digital and HD was becoming much more important, and maybe many pros were already working with down scan converted content where they still wanted to evaluate with as much detail as possible.

Not really. Anyone in the 90s who were working in HD had monitors from the HDVS lineup, like the Sony HDM-2830. One of the main benefits with HD (which was almost always 1080i or 1035i) was getting scanlines much closer together, creating a more solid image than 480i with far less flicker. Detail was of course also important but many people forget just much of an impact higher resolutions had on just the final image even if sharpness wasn't always so good.

[fernan1234]

Not really. Anyone in the 90s who were working in HD had monitors from the HDVS lineup, like the Sony HDM-2830. One of the main benefits with HD (which was almost always 1080i or 1035i) was getting scanlines much closer together, creating a more solid image than 480i with far less flicker. Detail was of course also important but many people forget just much of an impact higher resolutions had on just the final image even if sharpness wasn't always so good.

Yeah I bet they had those HD monitors too, but I'm sure they were also referencing content on SD displays since they assumed many people would be watching on SD TVs, so at that stage of evaluation these hi resolution SD monitors would be useful.

[nissling]

Nope, sorry but that wasn't quite the way it worked...

Most HD content throughout the 80s and 90s were encoded in MUSE and unless you actually had an HDTV with MUSE decoder you would never see any HD content converted to 15KHz. Even if you didn't, you'd never see any SD content sourced from HD. They were entirely different workflows and due to the compromises that had to be made for HD to even fit within the bandwith, it made no real sense to use the same masters for standard definition. With HD also being widescreen, it would cause additional unnecessary steps to make it work in standard def. Tho a few exceptions exists like the Squeeze Laserdiscs which were in some cases sourced from MUSE masters.

What kind of changed was when feature films started using DIs for selected scenes, often VFX, that you could see SD being sourced from a 2K master. But again even the G1 has more than enough resolution to resolve all detail being presented on D1 or Digibeta master tapes.

BVMs were primarily used for color timing and research. Their high prices reflect on their color accuracy, which are also their absolutely most obvious and important strength compared to nearly all other professional monitors. If you needed high resolutions, there were many cheaper options in the professional industry. Tho I always find it fun how so many people just compare TVLs without even reflecting on what the difference is in practise. I've worked with both G1, F1 and E1 and there's no way I'd pay more for an E1. In a realistic usecase they are more or less indistinguishable.

[VEGETA]

I didn't follow much but I can recommend you to just get PVM-D14L5J which is the Japanese variant of the famous 14L5. I found one searching on buyee here: https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/g1020541555

It requests about 638$ for it without shipping but total would be much less than these prices mentioned here.

I wonder if this is a hidden gem not appreciated or it is not really a variant of 14L5 with same capabilities.

Hope someone helps

[fernan1234]

Nope, sorry but that wasn't quite the way it worked...

Most HD content throughout the 80s and 90s were encoded in MUSE and unless you actually had an HDTV with MUSE decoder you would never see any HD content converted to 15KHz. Even if you didn't, you'd never see any SD content sourced from HD. They were entirely different workflows and due to the compromises that had to be made for HD to even fit within the bandwith, it made no real sense to use the same masters for standard definition. With HD also being widescreen, it would cause additional unnecessary steps to make it work in standard def. Tho a few exceptions exists like the Squeeze Laserdiscs which were in some cases sourced from MUSE masters.

What kind of changed was when feature films started using DIs for selected scenes, often VFX, that you could see SD being sourced from a 2K master. But again even the G1 has more than enough resolution to resolve all detail being presented on D1 or Digibeta master tapes.

BVMs were primarily used for color timing and research. Their high prices reflect on their color accuracy, which are also their absolutely most obvious and important strength compared to nearly all other professional monitors. If you needed high resolutions, there were many cheaper options in the professional industry. Tho I always find it fun how so many people just compare TVLs without even reflecting on what the difference is in practise. I've worked with both G1, F1 and E1 and there's no way I'd pay more for an E1. In a realistic usecase they are more or less indistinguishable.

Thanks for this insightful post. Did MUSE gain much traction outside of Japan?

And are you suggesting that "hi resolution" tubes (800TVL and above) essentially offer no benefit above "standard" tubes (600TVL or less) when it came to standard definition?

I wonder if this is a hidden gem not appreciated or it is not really a variant of 14L5 with same capabilities.

It's the same monitor, in the Japan market they just wanted to be more consistent with "D" designating multiformat monitors, would be my guess. In general you can find a lot of pro monitors in Japan for much lower prices (and in most cases they are also cheaper in Europe than in the US), but international cost can be quite high, and you also take risk with buyee or another forwarder doing an adequate job packing it. You also get no recourse if the monitor is not as the seller described it, or if it arrives in non-working condition. You also risk damage during transit, and usually the forwarder will at best help you file a claim with the carrier. You may need to pay import fees too.

In short you can import monitors from Japan for comparatively low tag price, but high import cost and high risk.

[nissling]

Thanks for this insightful post. Did MUSE gain much traction outside of Japan?

No. In many countries, companies bought HD equipment and tried to work out solutions for HD broadcasts that would function in their respective country. Some of them laid the ground for digital broadcasts as we know it today.

And are you suggesting that "hi resolution" tubes (800TVL and above) essentially offer no benefit above "standard" tubes (600TVL or less) when it came to standard definition?

As mentioned earlier the BVMs were primarily used for color timing, research and development. The higher resolution and smaller AG pitch made it possible to avoid a visible aperture grille which in turn gives a smoother image, but the increase of actual detail is fairly small TBH. Even the highest end and largest BVMs (A/D24 and 32) could just barely hit their specs as far as the actual resolution goes, but their color reproduction are legendary among colorists and are often overlooked when talked about today in the retro community unfortunately. Having spent countless of hours in DaVinci and Lightroom on a D24, I feel confident in saying that it is still a very accurate and useable monitor even for professionals. That is, of course, as long as you're working in SDR and BT.709 as that's what the BVM CRTs are limited to. PVMs like the 20L5/4, 20M4/2, 1954QM etc don't come close to the same level of accuracy. From a professional perspective, this can be much more crucial than the difference in TVLs and thus justifying the additional cost.

[VEGETA]

maybe he can check that japanese model which is very cheap compared to regular ebay or us local prices, even with shipping it won't go beying 800$ or so.

buyee actually can give you protective packaging which truely beneficial and I tested it myself when I got my AES with other stuff. I have chosen package consolidation and then package protection. trust me, it was good and took some effort to take it apart. so i bet they can do it well for you, especially if you got fedex or dhl but this is more cost. fedex is not so expensive, ems is the same.

how much is the price for this model locally? I live in Jordan and we don't have these stuff.

Another plan would be to get it with you when you go to Japan

[Housematt]

Hi Team;

I've just completed this exact operation, tube swap from a 20M4 to a BVM 20E1E.

Reason for the swap was that the E1E had been dropped (not by me) and the tube was showing the classic "busted shadow mask" rainbow. Yes I did check that it was not just a shifted yoke first. The usage hours on the BVM E1E was showing 120,000 hours, which is... quite a lot

Anyway
Part number of the tube I took out of the BVM E1E = M49LCB23X
Part number of the tube I took out of the PVM 20L4 = M49KGH21X

[Ed Oscuro]

I think paying these kinds of prices for professional tubes without really having a professional use case is a bit nuts. PVM 20L2s were used in medical endoscopy. They're more than good enough for PS2 era gaming, but so are good quality consumer tube TVs.

Also, be forewarned that shipping tubes is a crapshoot. The chances of damage are pretty high. There's still some good sets out there in the wild waiting for somebody to take them home, so check out surplus auction sites.

[Taiyaki]

It's insane how much CRT's have jumped in price. Back when I first joined this forum a BVM in great shape with reasonably low use was worth about $100~$200 with the controller (for the G and F models, and a tad more for the E). Consumer CRT's even of the most desirable models were practically free (or in the $10~$50 range). Now it's about ten times that all round.