Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[Sima Tuna]

I brought up Xevious because it's a game that literally everyone outside of Japan loves to laugh at. It doesn't have the "prestige" of Galaga which all the Americans worshipped, so it also doesn't have the kind of nostalgia factor that allows people to think good games are bad and bad games are good. And then you have the silly 4-second BGM acting like some kind of gamer repellant. Does that mean Xevious is a bad game? Fuck no. The only real complaint about the game is that it's a bit easy, which was fixed real fucking hard with Super Xevious.

Wait, they do? All I've heard about Xevious is it was basically the grandfather of shmups, created the rank system and remains surprisingly playable to this day.

I've never played Xevious, primarily because I dislike all shmups that use that "bomb the ground to hit certain enemies" system. Nothing against those games, my brain is just too small to identify which enemies are ground-based and hit the special missile/bomb button for them. So I end up angrily shooting over their heads and then dying.

It's directly related to how people worship CAVE at the expense of (nearly) all else.

Now, are you imblying that (a majority of) Cave games are bad? Them's fightin' words!

[Despatche]

You will only find those words uttered around here, and only among a specific crowd. Also, noone cites Xevious for rank, they cite Zanac instead.

I am not even remotely doing any such thing and I have no idea how you read that into that sentence. I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated, but one of the biggest issues in the community is this longstanding obsession with CAVE and only CAVE. It's not as bad as it used to be, but that's more because CAVE is fucking dead.

Actually, as it turns out, it does have a major scoring bug.

Rezon's audio issues are tame compared to the awful badness of audio quality that is Eight Forces. It also plays horrendously, basically being a terrible kusoge that is only redeemed by its sheer memery.

Now here's a shitty game. That shit is straight unplayable.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Look at how recent that video is!

I think was discovered during that recent renewed period of interest on shmup Discord that EmperorIng mentioned, too. Shmups science FTW.

[Despatche]

I seem to remember Strahl being easily counterstoppable, though that may simply be because it has too few digits.

...To which I have to ask why Strahl only has six digits, while Gomorrah, a much older game, has at least seven.

I would like to point out that this Gomorrah bug is not exactly new, just that people besides the world record holders are discovering it. There's also stuff like the Xexex bug that only the record holders really know about.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Strahl counterstop is a pretty old strat I believe, and not a bug as much as a dev oversight. You'd just take bad weps and little bombs (which'd get more stock because you took bad weps) and they'd get added to your score, eventually getting to the max. That's if I remember it right anyway.

[Sima Tuna]

I am not even remotely doing any such thing and I have no idea how you read that into that sentence. I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated, but one of the biggest issues in the community is this longstanding obsession with CAVE and only CAVE. It's not as bad as it used to be, but that's more because CAVE is fucking dead.

Well, I'm just wondering why you would be mad if you think CAVE make good games and people are obsessed with a dev who make good games. I think what makes CAVE so appealing for normies is the presentation combined with solid gameplay. You also have to consider availability. Many shmups were not/are not easily available commercially for reasonable prices. Of course, that is starting to change with digital distribution and also of course, there's always emulation. But many are not willing to emulate. One of the most popular shmups and most popular cave games is DFK, and I think wide distribution of a solid port has played a big role in that.

[Despatche]

The same reason anyone else has: CAVE has not, is not, and will never be the best name in town, let alone the only name. A lot of people did and still do act like they are, and that's both wrong and extremely disrespectful. This isn't about normies, as the crazy PCB collectors (as well as the wanna-be PCB collectors) say the same thing, as do the people tracking expensive ports down (many of which were not expensive until recently anyway). This was also still an issue long before the CAVE 360 ports, when you had various great not-CAVE things like the Dreamcast Takumi ports (actually better than the original arcade games), the Saturn and Dreamcast Psikyo ports, the ridiculous amount of non-CAVE PS2 ports of everything, Raiden IV, etc.

DFK? You mean the game people endlessly complain about? The game that some probably think was the beginning of the end for CAVE as a developer? The game that caused everyone to panic when SDOJ got announced? That DFK?

[BIL]

Jesus Fuckin Christ Patchy you make me wanna cry. (;｀w´;) Even back then at the turn of the century people were bitching about the CAVE circlejerk this, CAVE ballsack tonguers that, Psikyo boss patterns make you sterile the other. Also nobody ever posted scores or STs back then either.

It's like jp never got sent down for being Juggalo, and Rob never set off on his epic journey into the Alaskan wilderness, and jpj wasn't gunned down after being caught selling Ikaruga CDRs down the market. I can feel them, but I cannot remember them. 3;

Let's not paint too rosy a picture for latecomers to our nightmarish hatefuck world. Prices do suck now but that's inevitable in any scene full of leeching poseurs, ie any scene ever involving Product. "lol hehe m8 Garegga, its like 1943 on steroids innit! absolute classic m8, how about £399 minty CIB? what? do I have letters? no m8, never came with any letters afaik! how about that soundtrack eh?"

Well anyway. I shouldn't talk. I called one precious autist a gaping cunt and told another that his disability wasn't a license to smear his shit all over the walls, and now they're both gone too (or on alts! ^_~) while my worthless hide remains. I'm pretty sure my account is fuckin haunted at this point. 3;

[banjoted]

Right, so you see the problem for exactly what it is, and you deny it because you have that opportunity. You completely ignore how everyone talks about any creative work in the entirety of history, and you just write off any attempt to point this out as "well this guy's obviously just mad about his taste like anyone else". You also throw out the same "sage" bullshit everyone else does, no matter how much I beg people to fucking stop with that shit. It's so fucking obvious that you truly do not care about any of this shit on a fundamental level, so why stick around?

Yes, and that's a problemIt's clear you're not actually reading any of what I'm saying. I don't think you get to make guesses about how I actually feel.

About what, specifically? About this topic? I'm endlessly frustrated, having to explain the same things in a hundred different ways, trying to be as simple and clear as I physically fucking can about it, only to be met with either endless misunderstandings or outright rejection of anything I could ever say. And then, after years and years and years of this, I get straight up angry, only to then be told to "try watching your tone" forever by people who have absolutely no interest in whatever I'm saying, no matter who says it. And holy fuck, I am so sick of people making wild guesses about what I like or what I think, based purely on their own tastes, and then telling me I'm just ranting or going off on tangents when I cover those bases in advance.

Dude, we're reading what you're saying. I don't know you and clearly have no understanding of what on earth is going on with you, but it is super fucking clear that some introspection is very badly needed if you're gonna get past whatever all this is about.

The same reason anyone else has: CAVE has not, is not, and will never be the best name in town, let alone the only name. A lot of people did and still do act like they are, and that's both wrong and extremely disrespectful.

This post illustrates the point perfectly, mate. It's bonkers to claim it's "disrespectful" to believe CAVE is the best shmup dev, and it certainly cannot be argued by you or anyone else that it's demonstrably "wrong". I think that's at the core of why you're unable to unwind yourself from this bizarre tangle. Man, this board is a sociopsychological study in the making...

[el_rika]

Man, this board is a sociopsychological study in the making...

The entire internet is. MGS2 was truly waay ahead of its time

[Despatche]

Dude, we're reading what you're saying. I don't know you and clearly have no understanding of what on earth is going on with you, but it is super fucking clear that some introspection is very badly needed if you're gonna get past whatever all this is about.

This post illustrates the point perfectly, mate. It's bonkers to claim it's "disrespectful" to believe CAVE is the best shmup dev, and it certainly cannot be argued by you or anyone else that it's demonstrably "wrong". I think that's at the core of why you're unable to unwind yourself from this bizarre tangle. Man, this board is a sociopsychological study in the making...

What are you on about? What does any of this mean?

It's pretty disrespectful to literally every other dev in existence to not just simply claim that CAVE is "the best", but also that CAVE is "the only", which has been the real status quo for quite some time. It has taken a lot of effort by Eighting, Psikyo, Touhou, etc enthusiasts to get CAVE fanboys to just leave them alone, never mind trying to get them to stop constantly bashing their games as being somehow lesser. Again, times are better now, but they used to be a lot worse.

Where do you get off trying to play armchair psychologist, accusing anyone else of not being self-aware enough, only to deny one of the biggest issues in this community in such an awful way? Imagine actually believing that it's "bonkers" to demand that people ask themselves why they're so obsessed with a specific developer at the expense of all others.

I'm gonna guess that, like most people, you're overreacting to very specific words that happen to be in posts with my name next to them, and said words just happen to rub you the wrong way for some bizarre reasons. I can't do anything about that, sorry.

[chum]

shmups went downhill after Bank Panic, they dont make em like that anymore.

[BrianC]

Pac-Man is the best shmup eva!

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Raimais

[evil_ash_xero]

Despatche, I am not entirely sure why my 10 year old thread got you so riled up. I mean, it was just an off the cuff thing, and I certainly don't speak for the majority of the forum.
I'm pretty negative, by nature, anyway. I'm not sure if my "Psikyo are overrated" posts are still on here, but they were certainly... disagreed with. And good for people speaking up, and
saying what they think.
At least you're passionate.

Now, this is definitely accurate.

But being negative isn't going to get positive responses.

I doubt being positive would have fared much better in this specific scenario

Yeah, probably.

[davyK]

I've played shmups for a very long time. Was 11 or 12 when Space Invaders appeared in the arcade. I used to stick to the older type of game like Grad/Paro-dius, RTYpe and even older stuff like Xevious, Astro Blaster et al (I even still play original Invaders and SI pt2 from time to time).

I remember first looking at bullet hell and I have admit to dismissing them as pure coin eaters. Did that for the longest time. From the sideline I accused Cave in particular of just rehashing the same game (DoDonPachi) over and over again to a smaller and smaller audience. That may well have been true - I have no idea of their sales figures, but 2 Cave games changed my mind. The first one was Futari when I tried the port after a lot of coaxing by people on the old Edge forum. I picked it up cheap and got an E-series 360. Lets's just say my eyes were opened and my words were eaten after playing that. I've never had a better time than that Christmas I got it and DDP:Resurrection and bought Trials HD online. The 2nd Cave game was DoDonPachi - I bought a JP Saturn and the deal included its port (imagine that now - £50 all in!!). I played it a bit, saw how ugly it looked in hori (it is horrendously scaled) and put it on the shelf.

Then after Futari I thought to myself that there must be something to it - so I rotated my CRT and gave Saturn DDP another go, and got hooked. I tend to play it on MAME now for convenience but I played that port a hell of a lot and that's the port I credit with converting me to that series. I'm not good enough to notice the difference.

For the record, my 2nd buy that Christmas, DDP:Resurrection, didn't light my candle but after going back to DDP I have since grown to love that game too.

Cave did hit on a style of game that is very pleasing to play. That simple change from shot to laser by holding down the fire button and the change of ship speed gives me a really good feeling when playing. It just feels great but it can't convey why. Cave also seem to be able to plan the enemy waves nicely which just embues a feeling of satisfaction - moving around, switching weapons and picking up those gems.

But it's only one style of game. But maybe devs find it hard to step out of its shadow. I still love old school games - I'm one of those weird people who really - really liked Raiden III. I've since collected most of the others on PS1 and Steam. I like Cave but I wouldn't want it to be the only show in town. I've played a bit of Touhou and have enjoyed that though its been a toe in the water until now.

I've picked up a few games on Steam like Zero Ranger and Crimzon Clover and find them just as enjoyable. I liked Sturmwind on Dreamcast . I like those Psikyo ports on PS2 like Dragon Blaze and Gunbird 2 on Dreamcast. I love Under Defeat, Gigawing, Darius Gaiden et al.

I find it hard to separate them. Cave is one of the jewels in the crown but there are others. The biggest challenge for me is that I'm older and I need/like to maximise my time - I have too many shmups I hasn't played enough yet and only have a limited list of 1CCs . So I need to separate the wheat from the chaff when looking to buy YET ANOTHER one!!

Shmups take a lot of time to design, build and get right. I think the indie way is best now because as long they keep in touch with the userbase they can fix games - removing milking spots to keep scores meaningful etc. We are probably better placed now than ever to see the best we have ever seen.

The best is yet to come. We are a small userbase - but boy do we love this genre. We should be working with devs - maybe even pretty poor attempts can grow over a couple of years into great ones. The advantage of the genre is you only need a small team - there isn't a need for huge resources apart from time and effort - given the guys can code well, draw well and write a nice tune... why not?

[Stevens]

[Tokyo-J]

Shmups suck when Ikeda or Yagawa are not involved. It is as simple as that.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Yagawa



PS I don't like your post

[BrianC]

That reminds me. I would love to see a Matlock shmup. I say we call Matlock, he'll find the culprit

[Rastan78]

Shmups suck when Andy Griffith is not involved. It is as simple as that.

[To Far Away Times]

Xevious was the last great shmup. It's been all downhill ever since.

[professor ganson]

Minor correction:

Xevious Arrangement was the last great shmup. It's been all downhill ever since.

[Mykaizer]

Nothing is real. It's all in the head. We make it real.... 100011000
???????

disregard this message.

[EmperorIng]

I would like to point out that this Gomorrah bug is not exactly new, just that people besides the world record holders are discovering it. There's also stuff like the Xexex bug that only the record holders really know about.

The Xexex scoring bug has also been recently brought into the light.

[reckon luck]

Charging into the thread to declare once again that checkpoint milking is the worst thing in all of shmupdom.

[BIL]

The Xexex scoring bug has also been recently brought into the light.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Charging into the thread to declare once again that checkpoint milking is the worst thing in all of shmupdom.

Any milking, really. All of it just screams unintentional or bad design. The one cool thing milking has is that it can make you endure a boss for longer - something you can incentivise with time out bonuses instead. All in all, definitely a legacy arcade mechanic.

[Lethe]

TBH I feel most people who hate milking haven't tried any fun milks. I'll admit that the older ones are largely good by accident though, which leads to a lot of pitfalls. Take the Esprade stage 4 mech boss for example: if it were divided into 3 shorter timers, one for each phase, you'd have to handle all the patterns multiple times to fully milk it. But because the whole fight's on one big timer the optimal scoring method is to drag phase 1 out for ages to see the frisbees more often and then speedkill the other phases, wasting the harder patterns. That kind of situation contributes to the sentiment of milking being rote shit you have to do to get a better score instead of a compelling part of the game.

What we need are more scenarios like Guwange's stage 2 and 3 where you can keep milking going for as long as you're able, but it gets so impractically difficult after a while that you're forced to advance (or throw all your resources at it).

[Udderdude]

Gotta fill all these jugs with boss milk.