Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[Lethe]

Not calling it a bad game, but how is Kotsujin even on the Honorable Mention list this year? Noone plays that game, who keeps voting for it?

To prove your point about peer pressure, it's because people played it. It was a Calice game. But to disprove your point, if it were a shit Calice game, I doubt anyone would have voted for it. Ironically voting support for Mecha Ritz totally vanished when it was featured in the same event. Did people hate the dumb scoring that much? More likely a random assortment of coincidences. Results are nonsense, the purpose of the vote is to virtue signal about games you want other people to play. (Which is a pretty ironic conclusion, given the conversation)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Why has Ibara Stage 1 ("Black Diamond" by Stratovarius) and Mushi Futari Stage 5 ("Dance of the Yao People") escaped the ire of shmuppers then? Streets of Rage 2 also has some renditions that are clearly inspired by other songs, albeit those are all changed enough to be considered remixes I suppose with new instrumentation, not outright rips. I don't remember Bee Storm's OST enough to know how naughty its ripped music is at the moment, but at any rate as far as the gameplay is concerned my point still stands I think? >w>;

You can't kill me! I have a point defense system that blocks everything and has no cooldown. It also deals more damage than my actual weapons for some reason.

EVERYTHING DIES IF YOU TIME IT OUT, JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE

[BIL]

You can't kill me! I have a point defense system that blocks everything and has no cooldown. It also deals more damage than my actual weapons for some reason.

How you impugn the authentic STG experience of driving a Winnebago full of uzi-wielding gangbangers through downtown Tijuana (｀w´メ)

Ah yes, people lying for internet points. True Despair.

They must be eradicated. You get the street fighters, I'll prep the time accelerator.

Unironically the only way out of this living hell is to attain financial stability then marry a nice girl and bust in her pussy repeatedly until you're a real family man. A fate worse than death for battle-hardened shumpers but even Jesus had to take one for the team

[Despatche]

Why has Ibara Stage 1 ("Black Diamond" by Stratovarius) and Mushi Futari Stage 5 ("Dance of the Yao People") escaped the ire of shmuppers then? Streets of Rage 2 also has some renditions that are clearly inspired by other songs, albeit those are all changed enough to be considered remixes I suppose with new instrumentation, not outright rips.

There's a big difference between a song that's partially modeled after a classic that a lot of other would-be composers have looked at too, and a song that is literally just a near-port of (part of a, lol) song from a very recent video game. This isn't like what was going on with Raiga stage 2, and it's far worse than what happened to Super Robot Taisen K.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ibii1F-Nto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPoOtOcuRqw

This shit somehow managed to get two albums for it, by the way. Also, said albums may or may not have miscredited the DDP composer, who I'm pretty sure is Ryuichi Yabuki like with DP and Dangun. DDP sure sounds like those to me, at least. Though apparently that CAVE book credits DDP to T's Music. If that's true, they really have done everything...

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

How you impugn the authentic STG experience of driving a Winnebago full of uzi-wielding gangbangers through downtown Tijuana (｀w´メ)

In The Hunt, maybe? I'd also offer euroshmup Jets N Guns which was modeled after Tyrian and lets you pilot a literal space truck.

On paper Bioship is a fantastic idea but the moment you realize the point defense completely invalidates your other weapons, even your charge shot, the game kinda flips and you end up playing a drugged up lightgun game, without the lightgun. At least it has neat music.

[BIL]

a drugged up lightgun game, without the lightgun.

Spoiler

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Take a lesson here folks. When you try to talk something down, don't make it seem extremely awesome at the same time.

Don't end up like me.

Fuck
edit: rimage imoved

[BIL]

Spoiler

[BareKnuckleRoo]

This isn't like what was going on with Raiga stage 2

? =O

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Oh yeah btw. Here's an actual bad game for you desp

It's a great example becauase it's nice gameplay completely ruined by the audio design. But hey these things totally don't matter, right? Just mute it while you listen to Burn by Deep Purple

Spoiler

edit: image removed
this one's from some awful space harrier port lmao

Edit: Late reply!

Why has Ibara Stage 1 ("Black Diamond" by Stratovarius) and Mushi Futari Stage 5 ("Dance of the Yao People") escaped the ire of shmuppers then? Streets of Rage 2 also has some renditions that are clearly inspired by other songs, albeit those are all changed enough to be considered remixes I suppose with new instrumentation, not outright rips. I don't remember Bee Storm's OST enough to know how naughty its ripped music is at the moment, but at any rate as far as the gameplay is concerned my point still stands I think?

It's because Bee Storm was always seen as a scuffed game due to its development and cave's decision to more or less ignore the game's existence. The animu alien pilots and stage 1 hibachi perfectly complement the ripped off music, whereas in other games the music is an isolated issue that people thus don't pay too much attention to...

[BIL]

I seem to recall an SH port I was worried would cause permanent brain damage because while it was like 10x10 resolution, on an ancestral memory level, it actually kinda made sense

[Despatche]

This isn't like what was going on with Raiga stage 2

? =O

Raiga's stage 2 theme is modeled after a particular section in prog rock epic Tarkus. It was called Kartus 4damemes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKNOlDtZluU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPrJAEYlrxI

Here's the thing though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV9kAvjatqM

(yes same composer and all that)

Oh yeah btw. Here's an actual bad game for you desp

It's a great example becauase it's nice gameplay completely ruined by the audio design. But hey these things totally don't matter, right?

Yeah, see, this is a fantastic example of what I'm talking about, but not at all what you're talking about. Rezon's great. This is less evidence of a bad game and more evidence of frustrating development. The sound effects are actually good anyway, it's the music that's the issue. Why blame the gameplay for what the music's doing wrong? Similarly, there's no reason to get mad at a game with no music. Again, I'm not saying that we should be reduced to Kenta Cho games forever, I'm just saying that Kenta Cho games are not exactly "lesser" simply for not having Galuda II visuals or whatever.

You want a real travesty, just look at the ridiculous comments on that video. Literally someone directly comparing Rezon to The Great Giana Sisters, a game that literally has Super Mario Bros. 1-1 in it. Come on now, people.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

it's nice gameplay completely ruined by the audio design.

Why blame the gameplay for what the music's doing wrong? Similarly, there's no reason to get mad at a game with no music.

What (The fuck am I reading?)

People call rezon bad, but I haven't heard anyone shit on the gameplay. They just rightfully called the music ear rape and the thematic choice an R-Type ripoff.

It's proof that a game can be bad despite having good gameplay. A sentiment that also shows why TF4 was remembered even though its gameplay isn't exemplary - for its amazing music and design.

[Despatche]

That's what I'm saying though: it's completely wrong to call Rezon "bad" because of this. So many other perfectly good games could be called "bad" by this logic, it's awful. Look at Xevious, basically a god game, but with a silly 4-second loop for music.

Again, if any Thunder Force game is being treated as this important game you must play for something besides gameplay, then we have a problem. But, again, even that isn't happening, as we have too many people who think those are perfectly fine games to play for the gameplay. Cough Secret of Mana cough.

Do people think I find Thunder Force IV ugly or bad-sounding or something? Because let me assure that I fucking DO NOT. What that game really needs is a hack to fix its weirdness, except noone would play it because it's a hack. Cough Gradius III SA-1 cough.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Ok Despatche. I guess you deserve an explanation to what you're misunderstanding here.

Badness, as a whole, can be defined as a result of all of the game's factors: gameplay, balance, bugs, sounds, music, visual design, writing, theme.

If a game has decent or higher factors overall, it is not bad.

For it to be bad, it has to be a game which has either several low factors that bring it down. Let's say Thunderbolt II for an example. I think you'll agree that this is a game where every single factor i listed is low.

There is also another way, though. A single factor can be terrible enough to make a game unenjoyable. This is Rezon. A game where you will literally start getting sick unless you mute it, even though the other factors are fine.

Earlier we had an example of a flawed game that isn't bad. Bioship Paladin. A game BIL enjoys. Its balance is terrible, but it has ok gameplay, neat music, no bugs, very neat design, etc. Most importantly the balance doesn't completely ruin the game (though you do end up playing it like....yeah, i'm not repeating that meme lol).

Thunder Force 4 is a game with mediocre gameplay and pretty much all other factors extremely high. The gameplay is not bad enough to make the game unbearable - on average a person will still enjoy it even though TF3, for example, plays better. TF3 and TF5 are games with good to high factors overall, but low balance. This is still enough to end up with a good game.

Naturally, ripping things off makes a game look bad too. Bee Storm is not a game I'd call bad, but if we analyze the factors it would probably have a below average score. Once you add the fact that it steals stuff to it, it can be percieved as bad. Or not. These things are subjective, you see.

I hope this was insightful for you.

[Despatche]

I'm not "misunderstanding" anything, I'm saying that the entire concept of "badness" that you just described is shit, used to demean perfectly fine games for actually being good games but having some weird issue in not-gameplay. This is why we get people who say things like "well this game is great and unique but the graphics/music isn't so good (whether they're even telling the truth or not) therefore it's just a Mediocre game". It's complete shit and should never be taken seriously.

Worse, you've got the times when influencers create these situations. See: literally every AVGN video. It is completely impossible to explain Hydlide or Silver Surfer to people because they won't listen to anyone who isn't an influencer like the AVGN. Seriously, it'd be so fucking easy for some influencer to start gushing about Silver Surfer and whatever, and suddenly everyone starts liking the game. I'm pretty sure we've started seeing Virtual Hydlide get a bit more respect recently because certain key individuals have started repping the game.

You've also got the weirdos who like to give Super Mario World or whatever a fucking 5/10, either because they think it's funny or because they actually really do believe that. The actual contrarians, the people who want us all to believe that unquestionably good games are bad. Quelle surprise, what do you think I get accused of all the time?

I brought up Xevious because it's a game that literally everyone outside of Japan loves to laugh at. It doesn't have the "prestige" of Galaga which all the Americans worshipped, so it also doesn't have the kind of nostalgia factor that allows people to think good games are bad and bad games are good. And then you have the silly 4-second BGM acting like some kind of gamer repellant. Does that mean Xevious is a bad game? Fuck no. The only real complaint about the game is that it's a bit easy, which was fixed real fucking hard with Super Xevious.

A single factor can be terrible enough to make a game unplayable, not just unenjoyable. The thing is, the only factor that can cause that is gameplay.

Look, I'm willing to hear Gomorrah out, as that's what this seems to be about anyway, but you're doing a very poor job trying to make it seem as anything greater than a silly meme game.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

People won't agree with gameplay being the only factor that matters because (and this might blow you away) most people genuinely don't think it is.

Typically it is valued more than the other aspects of the game, yeah, but people such as yourself who seem to literally only care about the gameplay aren't that common.

Your opinion is not fact.

It also contradicts itself. According to your own statements, you would actually really enjoy TF3 and TF5. By not using powered up weapons in 3 or free range and overweapon in 5, you will remove the bad balancing in the games and become able to fully enjoy the gameplay. You called the games bad despite this. It's the same as muting Rezon to play it. You circumvent a flaw of the game to enjoy it better in both cases.

[Despatche]

Yes, and that's a problem. This is not a good thing, nor is it even a benign thing we should just accept. People do not know how to actually talk about the things they enjoy, and this is especially bad for video games because this medium is actually far more complicated than basically every other medium, contrary to popular belief.

No, my opinion is not fact. I don't talk about my opinion. Gameplay being paramount to a video game is not opinion, but a simple fact-based yes or no question, which the answer to is yes.

By my own statements, I would not enjoy Thunder Force III or V at all, and I've tried to give both of those games slack multiple times already. This is also not about my personal "enjoyment".

It's clear you're not actually reading any of what I'm saying. I don't think you get to make guesses about how I actually feel.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

How do you actually feel

[Despatche]

About what, specifically? About this topic? I'm endlessly frustrated, having to explain the same things in a hundred different ways, trying to be as simple and clear as I physically fucking can about it, only to be met with either endless misunderstandings or outright rejection of anything I could ever say. And then, after years and years and years of this, I get straight up angry, only to then be told to "try watching your tone" forever by people who have absolutely no interest in whatever I'm saying, no matter who says it. And holy fuck, I am so sick of people making wild guesses about what I like or what I think, based purely on their own tastes, and then telling me I'm just ranting or going off on tangents when I cover those bases in advance.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Hmm. I think I get you. Hopefully.

Spoiler

I am aware of the issues you're bringing up, but it also feels like the wrong place to discuss them. The thread's allegedly about shmup quality standards or something, but what I'm hearing are complaints about people mindlessly repeating opinions without giving thoughts to reality or their own judgment. There's also something about unreasonable expectations in there. It is not an entirely unjustified complaint, and I've chosen not to mention it prior to this post because it seems decidedly off-topic. It's the same reason I don't want to pursue that discussion too far right now either. The fact that it can easily offend people does not help. Ultimately though it sounds like a complaint to the people, not to shmup developers, and not about why people "can't make great shmups anymor"

[Despatche]

Lord have mercy, what do you think the last two pages have been about? What do you think happened in the Raiden V thread? What do you think happened in the Dodonpachi thread? I try to explain something, people refuse to even try to hear me out, I get frustrated, those same people tell me to stop being frustrated. It happens every fucking time. For someone who claims to be a top-tier lurker, you do an exceptionally poor job of it.

Your last sentence is exceptionally funny because this entire thread has been about the perception of individuals about what shmups can even be called "great". It has absolutely nothing to do with developers, who have never really stopped making truly great games. It has to do with people deliberately ignoring the value of Shikigami no Shiro or whatever because they cannot see it as "great" in the way they see CAVE as "great".

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Long-time. Not top-tier. I also happen to be a poor mind-reader.

Feel free to go on. You've lost me.

Also, I've tried to hear you out. I gave you a good shot. Several in fact. If my last spoiler is still not hitting the mark, then I'm afraid your secrets are beyond me. Should I apologize, despite putting up an effort? Take the apology if it means anything to you, I suppose, but this is well and truly the limits of how far I'll go.

[Despatche]

I've "lost" you because you have this very specific mental image of me and what I'm saying isn't gelling with that.

I edited that post. You posted again before I could finish. Let me repeat myself, hopefully for the last time: what you seem to be taking issue with is actually what this thread has been about from the start. It's always been about people's opinions, not the ability of developers to make good games. It's directly related to how people worship CAVE at the expense of (nearly) all else. The OP himself came in and doubled down on his initial claims, a massive assumption based on his own personal taste, eleven years later, in present day. What more do you want?

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I've "lost" you because you have this very specific mental image of me and what I'm saying isn't gelling with that.

I don't. I don't know enough about you to form any kind of meaningful mental image, and I've made no attempt to do so. Where we clashed or disagreed was not because of any assumptions I had or have about you. I was purely going based on your posts. The spoiler from before was an honest attempt to address what you were alluding to - something which I noticed several times but refused to mention earlier (like i said in the spoiler itself). Your recent remarks also seem to go along with it. That'd leave me with two options - either that I tried my best and still didn't understand, or that I did get it, which would mean it's a topic I don't want to discuss (and frankly, that I think is not worth discussing.) Both options leave me to conclude that exiting the discussion is the best choice for me.

Also, kudos for fishing another reply out. But that's just because you made it personal. You only get one of those per thread

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Bioship Paladin.

no bugs

Actually, as it turns out, it does have a major scoring bug. >w>;;

edit:

Rezon's audio issues are tame compared to the awful badness of audio quality that is Eight Forces. It also plays horrendously, basically being a terrible kusoge that is only redeemed by its sheer memery:

Spoiler

Worst of all it ENCOURAGES DRINKING AND DRIVING by featuring a a bishonen alcoholic unicorn pilot. Truly unacceptable.

[BIL]

That's the bit where a roach crawls out of the AC vent and you say AH FUCK

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Get sum fuckin' roach spray for your winnebago, BIL! >:3

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Bioship Paladin.

no bugs

Actually, as it turns out, it does have a major scoring bug. >w>;;

Woah, neat, and it's a fun one too! Gotta love seeing new things getting discovered like this. Look at how recent that video is!

[BIL]

Get sum fuckin' roach spray for your winnebago, BIL! >:3

West Indies upbringing, you get used to the fuckers hiding everywhere, primeval fight for shelter etc etc ;3