Why no Ketsui home port?

[roker]

I remember when people here were saying the PS2 couldn't handle all the bullets in Mushi, and it did that too.

I it couldn't

???

What does "I it couldn't" mean?

If I told you

it'd be the last thing you'd ever know

[elvis]

but they still aren't showing graphics in progressive scan). Is that right? Or am I smoking crack?

You are indeed, smoking crack (pass da pipe). TATE mode is 15khz non-interlaced at it's native resolution. TATEHOSEI (anyone know WTF this stands for) uses some funky crumpled version for people that don't have a vertical (I guess horizontal in this case actaully) control on their TV/monitor. It's a bit hard on the eyes. I don't know how they did it. It's non-interlaced, but "just ain't right".

I'll have to check out all my games under tate again for progressive modes!

The TATEHOSEI (NFI what it means either) modes are filtered. This is a standard Bilinear Filter that is applied automatically by Sony's default settings in their SDK to any mode that is stretched (whether it be larger or smaller than original size). Tate mode uses the original arcade PCB dimensions, and as such doesn't fit well on consumer TVs which are designed for heavy overscan (as opposed to arcade monitors, which all underscan, or have user-controllable modes as you mentioned above). This filtering can be turned off (Street Fighter III, Tekken 5, Treasurebox - 3 titles I own that allow you to remove it via a menu option), but only if the developers include the option manually. Without it, the system reverts to the SDK defaults, which forces the filter on all stretch modes (bigger or smaller, it doesn't matter).

DirectDraw under Windows does the same. Any software that uses DirectDraw to stretch an image automatically applies a filter. For 3D games, this is fine. For 2D, it's damned ugly. Emulators such as MAME and ZSNES do this, and it sucks. MAME went as far as to add a Direct3D blitter so that people could manually control the filtering that happened on stretch with command-line arguments, as the DirectDraw filtering that occurs is a default function of most modern 3D card drivers.

Luckily under OpenGL this problem doesn't occur, which is why I much prefer ZSNES under Linux than the Windows port. And with that said, I am so far off topic it isn't funny.

[the2bears]

If developers *REALLY* wanted arcade perfect ports on modern consoles, they could deliver them The problem is the cost of doing so isn't worth the reward, and as such corners are cut, costs are shaved, and the end result is imperfect ports.

Hold on there chief, you're simplifying this too much. There are going to be limitations in porting from one set of hardware to another. Perfect ports in some cases are just impossible. Take for instance emulating the Saturn on a PC...

Bill

[Alske]

TATEHOSEI (anyone know WTF this stands for) uses some funky crumpled version for people that don't have a vertical (I guess horizontal in this case actaully) control on their TV/monitor. It's a bit hard on the eyes. I don't know how they did it. It's non-interlaced, but "just ain't right".

補正 = ほせい = hosei = to correct, supplement or revise

[elvis]

Hold on there chief, you're simplifying this too much. There are going to be limitations in porting from one set of hardware to another. Perfect ports in some cases are just impossible. Take for instance emulating the Saturn on a PC...

Bill

What are you talking about? Why is Saturn emulation "impossible"?

Outside of difficult encryption or the need to emulate analogue/discreet hardware in an all-digital environment (eg: MAME can't emulate Pong), it's not impossible as far as I am aware. Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.

And just because it isn't done TODAY doesn't mean it can't be done.

[GaijinPunch]

補正 = ほせい = hosei = to correct, supplement or revise

Now I'm even more lost. No way 正 should be anywhere in there. It looks like turd.

but only if the developers include the option manually. Without it, the system reverts to the SDK defaults, which forces the filter on all stretch modes (bigger or smaller, it doesn't matter).

I know shit about PS2 SDK. What are the chances such things can be altered via cheat devices? They are obviously not too low level if you can do them on the fly.

[jpolz]

Perfect ports in some cases are just impossible. Take for instance emulating the Saturn on a PC...

The latest version of SSF runs everything I've thrown at it pretty damn good. The only downside is that I have a P4 3.4Ghz and I just barely get 60fps.

Saturn emulation is getting better all the time.

[elvis]

I know shit about PS2 SDK. What are the chances such things can be altered via cheat devices? They are obviously not too low level if you can do them on the fly.

This I don't know. It's been suggested both here and many other non-shmup places that it should be a "simple" (read: "simple when you know how") on/off bit flip. My question is who here has the knowhow to wade through 300-odd MB of binary PS2 code to find it? Not me, that's for sure.

And this is the bit where I whine and bitch, and ask why the developers themselves didn't add the ability to turn this on/off. Again, other games give you the choice. I can't stop talking about Treasurebox and the bazillion and one video options you have (low-res progressive, high-res interlaced, high-res progressive, filtered, unflitered, flicker control on/off - and all options are separate (ie: you can choose low or high res and filtering or no filtering independantly).

From this we can see that obviously it CAN BE DONE. It's just a matter of the developers either (a) not wanting to, (b) being unaware that they can (c) not giving a shit or (d) not having the time/instruction from above.

(b) is easily fixable. The rest aren't.

[louisg]

Perfect ports in some cases are just impossible. Take for instance emulating the Saturn on a PC...

Well, porting is more than just throwing together an emulator-- you're supposed to port the routines over so they run natively on the new platform (almost as if the game were originally designed for the new system). When you emulate, you're basically interpreting the code from one system on another. This is a much slower process. Something like STUN Runner is a good example: because you need something over a 3ghz processor to emulate it with MAME correctly does not mean that a 3ghz processor would have any problem coping with the flat shaded polygons of STUN Runner if it were ported.

[elvis]

Something like STUN Runner is a good example: because you need something over a 3ghz processor to emulate it with MAME correctly does not mean that a 3ghz processor would have any problem coping with the flat shaded polygons of STUN Runner if it were ported.

There are half-way points. Look at MAME vs ZiNc.

MAME uses 100% software rendering/processing for everything (audio included). ZiNc offloads the polygon rasterisation to a native system 3D API (OpenGL or D3D usually). The end result is the game engine itself runs in a native environment, while the graphics don't. In this case, the graphics can actually look better (higher resolutions, better anisotropi filtering, no crazy jumping polygons thanks to things like perspective correction and whatnot - something ZN/Playstation hardware was notorious for).

There are plenty of games in MAME that run fine on 2GHz hardware with audio disabled, but lag badly even at 3.5GHz with audio on. Again, rom-based soundtracks can be substituted for MP3/OGG/CD-Audio soundtracks if it means halving the system requirements.

Emulation is not an "all or nothing" system. Steps can be taken to use native hardware and routines for certain things, and fall back to emulation where porting is too difficult for other things.

[GaijinPunch]

I can't stop talking about Treasurebox and the bazillion and one video options you have (low-res progressive, high-res interlaced, high-res progressive, filtered, unflitered, flicker control on/off - and all options are separate

Yeah, I have the treasure box. AFAIK, this is going to be the norm for future Sega Ages releases (at least the 2D ones). Sapce Harrier I believe has these options, and I assume Quartet and SDI as well. Need to pick them up.

[louisg]

There are half-way points. Look at MAME vs ZiNc.

MAME uses 100% software rendering/processing for everything (audio included). ZiNc offloads the polygon rasterisation to a native system 3D API (OpenGL or D3D usually). The end result is the game engine itself runs in a native environment, while the graphics don't. In this case, the graphics can actually look better (higher resolutions, better anisotropi filtering, no crazy jumping polygons thanks to things like perspective correction and whatnot - something ZN/Playstation hardware was notorious for).
...
Emulation is not an "all or nothing" system. Steps can be taken to use native hardware and routines for certain things, and fall back to emulation where porting is too difficult for other things.

Of course, though in the example I gave I believe the polygon rendering is all done in software... at any rate, it should still take more to run any emulated system than to run actual native code.

[chtimi-CLA]

Depends on your idea of accurate. DOJ is said to not even be 90% accurate.

Are you sure of that, i think i remember reading that clover-TAC or some other cave specialist said the DOJ port was at least 98% accurate.
Maybe someone with the PCB can compare the slowdown?

[GaijinPunch]

Are you sure of that, i think i remember reading that clover-TAC or some other cave specialist said the DOJ port was at least 98% accurate.

I only say that b/c of quoting him. I believe 80% was the figure he gave.

EDIT: My mistake. 90%
source
Near the bottom of the page.

[JAPJAC]

I`m far from being a Cave fan but I simply love Ketsui at the moment. I play it about 3 times a week as I have found a local arcade that has it and it is only 50p for two credits. It is the best upscreen maniac shoot `em up by a country mile in my opinion. My best is the 3rd stage guardian on one credit on this machine (have no idea what dip switch) . I can not remember the last time I was addicted to a coin-op, what gaming is to me. It will come out (hopefully on PS3) they nearly always do these days. I am going to buy the PCB in the meantime though. Packet of fags, a cocktail partner, Sega New Astro City, RGB and Ketsui=gaming heaven.

[DEL]

JAPJAC wrote;

I`m far from being a Cave fan but I simply love Ketsui at the moment. I play it about 3 times a week as I have found a local arcade that has it and it is only 50p for two credits

Where's this 50p for two credits arcade

[serge]

@elvis:
I do work with PS2, wrote a bit of code for it, but I don't really understand what defaults you're referring to. Everything is very explicit. Am I missing something here?
Also, re: any MAME comparisons, I don't know how exactly MAME works, but common sense suggests that MAME renders at native res. of the emulated h/w then blits the whole framebuffer with appropriate resizing etc. While on PS2 rendering is done primitive by primitive (sprite, bg tile, whatever), so it's most likely that the whole process is too different to compare.

[elvis]

@elvis:
I do work with PS2, wrote a bit of code for it, but I don't really understand what defaults you're referring to. Everything is very explicit. Am I missing something here?
Also, re: any MAME comparisons, I don't know how exactly MAME works, but common sense suggests that MAME renders at native res. of the emulated h/w then blits the whole framebuffer with appropriate resizing etc. While on PS2 rendering is done primitive by primitive (sprite, bg tile, whatever), so it's most likely that the whole process is too different to compare.

The PS2 is capable of generating different modes. The default mode is 640x480 (or 640x512 according to some sources) which is then interlaced to be displayed on a standard 15KHz television. Other modes are available of course, but these are the defaults. (According to Wikipedia: "Variable from 256x224 to 1280x1024 pixels").

The problem for a lot of shmups that started life as an arcade game is that they are designed for ~240line progressive modes. When they make it to console, developers seem to stick with the Sony SDK's default 480 line modes.

480 line interlaced isn't bad for tate games that need to be played on a horizontal screen. It allows the game to be shrunk down without losing too much detail. The problem for the hardcore crowd is when the tate modes continue to use 480line interlaced modes, and also when the PS2 applies it's default bilinear filter to the game. To see the difference, grab ESP Galuda, DDP:DOJ or Treasure Box. I'm sure there's others too. In the graphics options, play around with TATE and TATEHOSEI modes and look at the difference in clarity. Bilinear filtering is a wonderful tool for 3D. Under 2D, it really ruins things for pixel lovers.

As for the PS2's rendering... I was under the impression the PS2 had 4MB vram which it used as a framebuffer? "Sprite layer" primative rendering doesn't work so well for 3D games, after all.

[the2bears]

Hold on there chief, you're simplifying this too much. There are going to be limitations in porting from one set of hardware to another. Perfect ports in some cases are just impossible. Take for instance emulating the Saturn on a PC...

Bill

What are you talking about? Why is Saturn emulation "impossible"?

Outside of difficult encryption or the need to emulate analogue/discreet hardware in an all-digital environment (eg: MAME can't emulate Pong), it's not impossible as far as I am aware. Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.

And just because it isn't done TODAY doesn't mean it can't be done.

Well, first of all you quote me as saying Saturn emulation is impossible. The reference was to sometimes perfect ports are such. The point I was trying to make is Saturn emulation is *very* difficult, given the dual CPU architecture (as well as 6 other processors for graphics, etc). Of course it's not impossible, but this is all in response to you implying lazy developers not throwing enough money at the problem. It's pretty darn close to impossible *today* on present hardware to adequately emulate. The Dreamcast is far easier to emulate, despite it being a generation newer.

Bill

[serge]

@elvis:
Yeah, I understand this stuff, do have all the games you mention etc.
What I don't understand is the part about the defaults in the SDK.
Video controller init is roughly like this:
1) set video signal (NTSC, PAL, progressive) and scanning mode;
2) set resolution (I believe the highest res. is even higher, 1920x1080 for 1080I, the lowest is indeed 256x224 for NTSC output);
But I don't think there is a default filter of any kind applied to the whole screen, basically any filtering is done on primitive basis.
In other words, everything is very explicit, and I don't believe that the whole thing is something simply overlooked by the devs, unless of course they are using some higher-level code, developed by someone else, that hides these details.

As for the PS2's rendering... I was under the impression the PS2 had 4MB vram which it used as a framebuffer? "Sprite layer" primative rendering doesn't work so well for 3D games, after all.

Yeah, framebuffer is there, that's for sure - this is there primitives are rendered to.
Rendering process is something like: compile a list of primitives (dots, lines, pols, or sprites) with appropriate params, set it to the gfx controller, that renders it to the framebuffer.

[iatneH]

Just curious, how many members here actually own a PCB of this game? Probably at least half the people posting in its high score thread?

[elvis]

@elvis:
Yeah, I understand this stuff, do have all the games you mention etc.
What I don't understand is the part about the defaults in the SDK.
Video controller init is roughly like this:
1) set video signal (NTSC, PAL, progressive) and scanning mode;
2) set resolution (I believe the highest res. is even higher, 1920x1080 for 1080I, the lowest is indeed 256x224 for NTSC output);
But I don't think there is a default filter of any kind applied to the whole screen, basically any filtering is done on primitive basis.
In other words, everything is very explicit, and I don't believe that the whole thing is something simply overlooked by the devs, unless of course they are using some higher-level code, developed by someone else, that hides these details.

If it's anything like DirectDraw, it happens at a very low level out of reach of the developers.

Under Windows if you scale any item to the framebuffer using DirectDraw it applies a bilinear filter. I'm assuming the Sony SDK does the same, unless (as you said) you explicitly tell it otherwise via your own custom code.

Again - high difficulty for low reward. Particularly when only 1% of your market is going to even notice.

[serge]

On the contrary, it's nothing like DirectDraw, everything is visible down to h/w registers etc., SDK is very low-level and there are really no defaults or any hidden stuff and the like.

assuming teh Sony SDK does the same, unless (as you said) you explicitly tell it otherwise via your own custom code.

The thing is, there are no any "otherwises", you either program it one way or another, SDK libs do nothing more than providing (very thin) interface to the hardware.
So if there is a problem it's not in the SDK.

[ReKleSS]

If you want to get a better idea of what's involved in messing with the ps2, the open sdk should work in a fairly similar way to the official SDK. There are tutorials at http://ps2dev.org/ps2/Tutorials. Dreamtime's first tutorial there goes through basic hardware setup, which may be what you want to see.

[GaijinPunch]

Just curious, how many members here actually own a PCB of this game? Probably at least half the people posting in its high score thread?

I would say more than half. 90% of them most likely.
Myself, MMM, Valgar, PDA, Big (might've sold his), Kiken, LUN, etc. etc. It is a dreamy game.

[droid]

I own a copy. However its kinda depressing watching the superplay full clear video...I've got a long long way to go...Hard to believe that is actually a human controlling that ship.

Droid

[elvis]

The thing is, there are no any "otherwises", you either program it one way or another, SDK libs do nothing more than providing (very thin) interface to the hardware.
So if there is a problem it's not in the SDK.

I'll take your word for it, as I'm not a console programmer.

But this only frustrates me more. If indeed the filtering is ADDED MANUALLY by the developers, what sane person is responsible for adding such ugliness to the game? What the heck is the point of doing that?

If I were more of a conspiracy theorist, I might be tempted to think that this is Cave's way of ensuring the hardcore crowd continue to buy PCBs instead of console ports.

[NTSC-J]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but tonight I saw a guy display unbelievable skills with this game.

He didn't lose a life until the end of 2-4 (of the special round!) and cruised through to the end of 2-5 where he lost his nerve for a minute with Nightmare and lost some lives, but had a couple spare ships when DOOM showed up.

Everyone around him was just sort of wide-eyed watching the showdown, time had stopped for this one event. It was like in Ghostbusters when Sigourney Weaver's apartment blew up and all the spirits congregated at the nexus of the greatest power. He lost a life during the missile bullshit where they come from above and below and his final spare fighter during that vicious final pattern, but he stuck it through and DOOM was destroyed. He actually waited to enter his initials, first time I've ever seen that happen. I guess he thought he did good enough.

[Valgar]

What were his initials?

[Icarus]

He actually waited to enter his initials, first time I've ever seen that happen. I guess he thought he did good enough.

Whether he waited because he wanted to act cool to the admiring masses, or simply because he wanted to catch his breath after beating down DOOM, we'll never know. ^_-