Arcade to port differences? or just anal?

[Never_Scurred]

I'm just curious. I was checking out the Ketsui thread and I just couldn't hold back the question. I mean, I haven't heard any differences between the ports of games like Ibara or whatnot that would lead to the game being unplayable. Someone or somebodies please enlighten me to how these ports are deemed "inferior" to the arcade PCB's. I mean, i'd love to cop the boards at some point (especially some of the old Saturn shooters). Maybe some of this is disinfo generated by the few here who wanna preserve the value and mystique of their boards and supergun setups. After playing Ibara and DOJ as well as a few other arcade to home ports deemed "inaccurate", I gotta call bullshit on that. I don't see whats wrong with these games at all. Someone said that DOJ wasn't even 90% accurate. WTF? I mean, what am I missing that would have made it 100%? Perhaps if I had've played the arcade versions then I would have seem what you guys are talking about.

[PaCrappa]

I'm just curious. I was checking out the Ketsui thread and I just couldn't hold back the question. I mean, I haven't heard any differences between the ports of games like Ibara or whatnot that would lead to the game being unplayable.

Street Fighter II isn't unplayable on the SNES either but is it arcade perfect?

Someone or somebodies please enlighten me to how these ports are deemed "inferior" to the arcade PCB's. I mean, i'd love to cop the boards at some point (especially some of the old Saturn shooters). Maybe some of this is disinfo generated by the few here who wanna preserve the value and mystique of their boards and supergun setups.

"Disinfo"? "Preserve the value"? A supergun can be made at home for less than $100. I'd say online auctions are doing far more to help preserve the monetary "value" of arcade PCBs than people from a small obscure forum nitpicking over small details. The details that keep these very nice ports from being 100% perfect.

After playing Ibara and DOJ as well as a few other arcade to home ports deemed "inaccurate", I gotta call bullshit on that. I don't see whats wrong with these games at all. Someone said that DOJ wasn't even 90% accurate. WTF? I mean, what am I missing that would have made it 100%? Perhaps if I had've played the arcade versions then I would have seem what you guys are talking about.

That last sentence pretty much says it all. And since you haven't played them, how in the hell are you in a position to "call bullshit on that"?

Pa

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For Never_Scurred,

I believe the PS2 ports of DDP-DOJ and ESPgaluda are nearly perfect ports of the arcade PCBs themselves...you just have to have the right equipment to present them in arcade RGB signal 15 kHz mode.

Some shmuppers have said in the past that it's pointless to buy the actual arcade PCBs of DDP-DOJ and/or ESPgaluda when it's cheaper to just buy the PS2 import ports of them and get some extra game mode content as well that the original arcade PCB versions didn't provide. Of course, if one already has access to a full-sized arcade cabinet or Supergun setup, then one would naturally want the arcade PCB version of the same name as nothing compares to playing the "real deal" on a real cabinet setup. ^_~

Remember, getting into the arcade PCB hobby isn't cheap either. That also applies to home game consoles as well, especially if one pays full price for new released console software released on day one. Paying full price for new arcade PCBs released on day one will hit you in the nuts since they're already priced at $2,000-$3,000 USD. That isn't chump change either. I've had a $350.00 Taito G-Net arcade motherboard go up in smoke because of static electricity discharge. As luck would have it, I did have a 2nd backup G-Net mobo if the need ever arised for one. ^_~

Arcade PCBs are expensive...let's treat them as such -- quote from bloodflowers ^_~

Of course, one would need a true 15 kHz analog RGB monitor for that very purpose -- a 14" Commodore Amiga analog RGB monitor works well for hooking up home game consoles provided that you use the proper connection cables to extract the five required signals that an analog RGB CRT-based monitor needs: R, G, B, Sync & lastly, Ground.

It's been said that an Amiga RGB monitor outputs a better picture than the larger 27" or 29" arcade monitors. I didn't say this but it has been said here before on this Shmups.com forum in the past.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[GaijinPunch]

please enlighten me to how these ports are deemed "inferior" to the arcade PCB's.

Depends on the port, really. The two most hated ports are Mushihime-sama, and Ibara. Partly because the two Cave games before them (ESPGaluda and Dodonpachi DOJ) are almost perfect ports (ESPGaluda being even almost perfecter).

Their shortcomings are:
1: Graphics do not run in native resolution. They run in interlaced mode, which bothers a lot of people. It's far more apparent in Mushi, as there are far more light colors, in which scanlines (found in the native non-interlaced mode) alleviate.

2: Cave games have always pushed the hardware, usually in the for mof bullet spray. The PCB's seems to have some type of algorithm that smooths this out. The PS2 ports don't. i've not played much of Ibara on PS2, but there are parts in Mushi where there is simply zero slowdown, and other parts where slowdown isn't smoothed out, and becomes very jerky (and hard to survivie through).

These are the two main gripes. They are not unplayable, but at this day and age, if the majority of games you are playing are featured on a site like this, then it's very likely you're the type of person to be bothered by the above points. Quite a few people here are well out of college and have jobs, so can afford PCBs at a few hunderd bucks a shot... or more in some cases.

[Icarus]

I mean, I haven't heard any differences between the ports of games like Ibara or whatnot that would lead to the game being unplayable.

Unplayable is a bit harsh. 'Not quite arcade perfect' is a bit closer.

From here, regarding Ibara PS2:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &start=120

Thanks to oxtsu, but Archer posted differences between ARC/PS2. He mentiones less score potential and muddy colors?
http://home.r00.itscom.net/archer/

If someone could take a stab at translating the gist of this (the PS2 differences page) that would be great.

I'm on my way out in a few, so here's the main points, w/o the detailed descriptions:

Differences:
1: Starting point in the stage is strange.
2: Sound is slow (seems to be on stages 2 and 5)
3: No slowdown (on stage 3, sepcifically).
4: Zako appear early just before 4th stage boss
5: Stage 5, the 3 tanks appearance is late
6: SOmething else on stage 5 where a group of zako ends too early or something. Says the difference is about 100,000 points.

Problems:
1: Bad method of restarting
2: No auto-fire button, and S-formation release is the select button

etc.

I'm thankful I have the luxury of being able to compare both the PCB and the PS2 port of Ibara, and I can verify that there are a number of both major and minor differences that do change the way the game is played. Nowadays, I'm more amused at the amount of people complaining about graphical filters making a port less-than-perfect, when occasionally it's the gameplay that is usually affected.

[Never_Scurred]

...
Right on guys...I'm fortunate that I can at least afford to buy a coupla PCB's now(I've been dying to get my mits on Battle Garegga/Bakraid, and the Donpachi games). LOrd willing nothing stupid comes up, i'll be able to cop that Battle Garegga from somewhere. Now I gotta figure out how to sort out this supergun business.

[louisg]

These are good questions-- almost makes me think there should be some sort of community supported list of shooters from the 80s to now and their home ports with details about what might differ. Would be nice to see some of this at a glance.

Home ports are better generally than they have ever been, with some fairly direct ports available too. It seems almost silly to argue about stretched resolution or wait control when so many old ports have a totally wrong aspect ratio that renders movement awkward, missing enemies, and washed out graphics..

[Blade]

What I'd like to know is, does the fact I have my shmups installed on HDD make any significant difference in the running/processing speed of some shmups?

[Icarus]

It seems almost silly to argue about stretched resolution or wait control when so many old ports have a totally wrong aspect ratio that renders movement awkward, missing enemies, and washed out graphics..

With regards to the wrong screen resolution, I would assume you're talking about the CPS2 stuff on the Dreamcast, most notably Mars Matrix? That's the most extreme case I can think of.

I do agree that ports nowadays are very good, and very close, due to the fact that home hardware is approaching or is equal to arcade hardware. I guess we can be thankful that these ports are appearing at all. But it is the small things that make particular ports less-than though. If you buy just to play, then you probably won't notice the small things (such as the Ibara gameplay differences) but if you are totally serious and a dedicated scoreplayer, these small differences can often be magnified.

Also, wait control does have an effect on how you play. If you are used to a game playing at a certain speed with slowdown in particular places, shifting to a format that either eliminates the slowdown (Ibara and Garegga being two examples that I can think of) or produces minor/major slowdown in random/different areas (DDP on PSX and Saturn, and Mushi are two) can have drastic effects on the way you play.

[Valgar]

If you are looking to just play the game and have fun (or to give it a test run), there isn't anything wrong with just playing the ports and saving yourself the money. When you start to get serious or the problems start to actually bug you (and it is a favorite title), then you think about getting the pcb.

[jpolz]

What I'd like to know is, does the fact I have my shmups installed on HDD make any significant difference in the running/processing speed of some shmups?

No....load times are reduced, but it has no bearing on the actual gameplay speed.

[jpolz]

I do agree that ports nowadays are very good, and very close, due to the fact that home hardware is approaching or is equal to arcade hardware.

Kinda hard to tell these days, as home consoles are more suited towards 3D gaming, while by and large arcade games reamin more 2D sprite based.

Look at it this way: PS2 with it's high & mighty "Emotion Engine" would have a bitch of a time emulating Ketsui, which runs on a "measly" 68000 processor. Why? They were built for 2 totally different purposes.

[louisg]

Look at it this way: PS2 with it's high & mighty "Emotion Engine" would have a bitch of a time emulating Ketsui, which runs on a "measly" 68000 processor. Why? They were built for 2 totally different purposes.

That's assuming the home version would be done via emulation though-- I am quite sure the PS2 could run Ketsui if it were ported. Details like slowdown and accurate resolution are independent of how powerful a system is.

[Arznei]

Basically, if you can't afford or won't buy a supergun/pcbs, you're going to have to settle for either 1) emulation or 2) the console versions.

I think a little bit of slowdown and inaccuracy is fine, you still get to play it. There are some games which are just terrible to play on consoles (Radilgy, Mushi) but unless you can find other means of playing them, you take what you can get.

In any case, inaccuracy and slowdown sometimes helps.

[pixelcorps]

I do agree that ports nowadays are very good, and very close, due to the fact that home hardware is approaching or is equal to arcade hardware.

Kinda hard to tell these days, as home consoles are more suited towards 3D gaming, while by and large arcade games reamin more 2D sprite based.

Look at it this way: PS2 with it's high & mighty "Emotion Engine" would have a bitch of a time emulating Ketsui, which runs on a "measly" 68000 processor. Why? They were built for 2 totally different purposes.

untrue, DDPDOJ is virtually the same engine and runs fine... its down to programming skills of the developer.

[louisg]

I think a little bit of slowdown and inaccuracy is fine, you still get to play it. There are some games which are just terrible to play on consoles (Radilgy, Mushi) but unless you can find other means of playing them, you take what you can get.

Hmmm, what is different about arcade Radilgy? I've only seen the home version.

[Icarus]

Look at it this way: PS2 with it's high & mighty "Emotion Engine" would have a bitch of a time emulating Ketsui, which runs on a "measly" 68000 processor. Why? They were built for 2 totally different purposes.

That's partly the reason why ports are rarely perfect.

I think I read on the forum a while ago, someone had translated a blog post that stated that a highly-skilled Japanese player compared Daioujou running on PCB and the PS2 version, and found that the port was around 95% accurate (slowdown and timing differences probably being causes of the -5%). This was due to Arika rewriting all the Daioujou sourcecode to optimise it for the PS2 with Cave's help, with near accurate results.

Obviously when you have console and arcade hardware that share a common architecture, like DC and Naomi, the ports will be quite accurate, as all you'd technically need to do is just optimise the original source for the hardware you're porting to. However, when you have to either completely rewrite the source, or emulate one hardware on another, that's when flaws start to appear. I think Arika were very fortunate that they took a lot of care both in the source rewrite, optimisation and testing, which is why a lot of forum members here near worship the ports of Daioujou and Espgaluda for their accuracy. Before Arika and the Naomi DC ports, the only port I can think of that was near-to-better-than-perfect was the Saturn port of Garegga. However, as we've seen, lately not everyone takes as much care as Arika did.

[Shatterhand]

These are good questions-- almost makes me think there should be some sort of community supported list of shooters from the 80s to now and their home ports with details about what might differ. Would be nice to see some of this at a glance.

Home ports are better generally than they have ever been, with some fairly direct ports available too. It seems almost silly to argue about stretched resolution or wait control when so many old ports have a totally wrong aspect ratio that renders movement awkward, missing enemies, and washed out graphics..

Someone please download an MSX emulator and please, take a look at what I was supposed to play as a port of "Tokio: Scramble Formation"

Or what Spectrum players had to play as a port of.. well, any shmup that was ported to the system. Well, take a look at both Salamander and Gradius on the system, it's a good start. R-Type is often considered one of the best shmup ports on the system (If not THE best), and still is like light-years away from the arcade one. Great game still

I am one more who finds funny how people complain about home ports these days. I look at Donpachi on Mame, Donpachi on Saturn, and I just think "Geez, it's great to have this in a home console".

[doctorx0079]

If you are used to a game playing at a certain speed with slowdown in particular places, shifting to a format that either eliminates the slowdown (Ibara and Garegga being two examples that I can think of) or produces minor/major slowdown in random/different areas (DDP on PSX and Saturn, and Mushi are two) can have drastic effects on the way you play.

I guess I'm some kind of pauper, but I want to point out here that I would never get to play these games (without pirating at least) were it not for the home ports. From what I have read on this board, I'm sure these ports are much more accurate than the old NES ports I used to play.

[zakk]

Atari 2600 Pac-Man was the best arcade->home port ever made!

[GaijinPunch]

I am quite sure the PS2 could run Ketsui if it were ported.

We have got to find that other thread. DOJ & ESPGaluda were ported. They do not run through emulation. It's inferred that Ketsui would've been the same.

untrue, DDPDOJ is virtually the same engine and runs fine... its down to programming skills of the developer.

And you saw the source code when? For all anyone knows DOJ, ESPGaluda, and Ketsui, while on the same hardware, use completely different routines. Despite what everyone one the internet thinks/says, there really is only a few people that know how both the PGM & PS2 ports work. One of them even flat out said, "Everyone claims that 'b/c it's the same hardware, it's easy', but believe me, that's not the case". Or something like that.

So if you think he's flat out bullshitting/lying, that's another story. I have no reason to think that though. Mihara seemed quite keen on a Ketsui port.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Atari 2600 Pac-Man was the best arcade->home port ever made!

I still think that the Atari 2600 version of Ms. Pac-Man runs circles around the 2600 version of Pac-Man. Back in 1983, a brand new copy of Atari 2600 Ms. Pac-Man was priced at $38.99 USD at my local Wherehouse music store. Got it when it first came out from Atari and paid full price for it. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Arznei]

I think a little bit of slowdown and inaccuracy is fine, you still get to play it. There are some games which are just terrible to play on consoles (Radilgy, Mushi) but unless you can find other means of playing them, you take what you can get.

Hmmm, what is different about arcade Radilgy? I've only seen the home version.

I was talking about how Radilgy on different consoles performs.

[Thunder Force]

Someone please download an MSX emulator and please, take a look at what I was supposed to play as a port of "Tokio: Scramble Formation"

Or what Spectrum players had to play as a port of.. well, any shmup that was ported to the system. Well, take a look at both Salamander and Gradius on the system, it's a good start. R-Type is often considered one of the best shmup ports on the system (If not THE best), and still is like light-years away from the arcade one. Great game still

I am one more who finds funny how people complain about home ports these days.

Yes, those of us who experienced the 8-bit home conversion days in all their glory, are certainly likely to be a lot more forgiving of the subtle inaccuracies of modern ports.

I still consider the forum discussions concerning differences between modern versions of games useful and interesting though; as I still generally want the best version possible for my money.

This is basically the same thought as behind all those "Which version of generic multiplatform game X should I buy, GCN/PS2/XBOX??" threads that you see on boards all the time at Gamefaqs. Even if the differences are subtle, people naturally still want the best experience.

[Generiname]

Back in the day I didn't care that the 8 and 16 bit ports only loosely resembled the arcade version, I was just happy not to have to mission across the road to play the games at 40 cents to a dollar a pop. I’m really grateful that these days I can pick up a console game that looks and plays almost exactly like it does in the arcade; the little details don’t bother me.

Since I’ve never played a Mushihmesama PCB & the PS2 version is all I know, it’s possible that if I did play the PCB I’d play a bit worse for a while because of the change in slowdown. Once again, I’m just grateful to be able to play it at home at my discretion. Better yet is the fact that now I actually have access to games I'd otherwise only be able to play internationally.

[Thunder Force]

Back in the day I didn't care that the 8 and 16 bit ports only loosely resembled the arcade version, I was just happy not to have to mission across the road to play the games at 40 cents to a dollar a pop. I’m really grateful that these days I can pick up a console game that looks and plays almost exactly like it does in the arcade; the little details don’t bother me.

Since I’ve never played a Mushihmesama PCB & the PS2 version is all I know, it’s possible that if I did play the PCB I’d play a bit worse for a while because of the change in slowdown. Once again, I’m just grateful to be able to play it at home at my discretion.

I also like the modern trend of throwing in cool extras to home ports, such as arrange modes, etc... Ever since Compile added a bonus level into their SMS port of R-Type, I've always appreciated such bonuses. It was generally rare to see major new content in home ports though, I think, until Namco started routinely doing it to their early PS1 releases. (Now people almost take it for granted.)

[GaijinPunch]

Yes, those of us who experienced the 8-bit home conversion days in all their glory, are certainly likely to be a lot more forgiving of the subtle inaccuracies of modern ports.

Not necessarily. I'm definitely in the top tier here when it comes to age, and my asshole still puckers up at a bad port. I don't think of things as a comparison of now and then. I think of possibilities now, and realities now. For something as simple as keep inga game in it's native resolution, I will always ask myself "why the fuck not?"

[Ghegs]

Yes, those of us who experienced the 8-bit home conversion days in all their glory, are certainly likely to be a lot more forgiving of the subtle inaccuracies of modern ports.

I didn't (for the most part) and I still find it odd how people keep complaining about the slightest inaccuracies. Especially the resolution and filters, I've grown so weary of hearing about those.

Statements like "Mushi is terrible to play on console" boggles my mind to no end, since I've played my PS2 port quite a bit without any headaches.

Out of the ports in the last few years we've seen GWG is the only one I can understand the complains of (thanks to the framerate, not the lack of tate). And even in that case people with actual gaming credentials (Rob) claim the game is still perfectly playable after spending some time with it and getting used to it.

Maybe that's the problem, people expect absolutely perfect ports from the get-go and aren't willing to invest the few hours needed in order to get used to the inaccuracies. PROTIP: If Rob can do it with GWG, you can do it with one of the better ports.

[louisg]

Out of the ports in the last few years we've seen GWG is the only one I can understand the complains of (thanks to the framerate, not the lack of tate).

Yeah that's the only modern one I can think of that's like, US Gold quality or something. Below are some snaps of what you used to be able to expect from an arcade port (hopefully these links work-- I tried to img tag them but it failed):

http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/c64/a/paperboy_1.gif
http://www.skytopia.com/games/arcade/compare/c64or2.png
http://www.games4nintendo.com/nes/thumb ... asters.jpg

(true low res ain't everything.. Paperboy played nicely at least.. in OutRun C64 the road moved the wrong direction when you steered)

[incognoscente]

Mihara and TAC on DOJ port -- "90%":
1, 2


(looks like GaijinPunch already found this one)
Mihara on possible Ketsui port:
1
I believe there was a little more discussion on the click-stick forums, but I have no archive.