Sony PVM-14L2 menu not showing 100% of the time

[Dochartaigh]

Yes, I'm one of those jerks who comes here and immediately posts about a problem lol (sorry, CRTGaming on Reddit doesn't seem to be too active - but your forums has been a great source of information for me, so thought I'd pick your brains!

I have a Sony PVM-14L2MD model with an RGB card installed if that matters. I have composite for my NES, and S-Video for SNES, Genesis, PS1, and PS2 (waiting on my SCART/BNC cables to arrive). I've tried direct hook-ups to the PVM, along with through my automatic S-Video switcher - all to Line A on the monitor. My problem is with the on-screen menu - it seems to only display at certain times:

On NES I press menu nothing happens
SNES nothing happens
Genesis nothing happens
PS1 Menu DOES show up (also says NTSC 480/60I on the first screen)
PS2 menu DOES show up with the same NTSC info

BUT, when I turn UNDERSCAN ON, on NES, SNES, or Genesis the on-screen menu finally shows up (albeit much smaller). Turn Underscan off, the menu disappears. The menu sometimes likes to blink fast on SNES when Underscan is on.

I then reset the unit to factory settings and Underscan only sometimes makes the menu show up on NES, SNES, and Genesis (not nearly as repeatable as before the factory setting reset). When I see NTSC 480/60I display for Genesis (which isn't all the time) the menu will almost always shows up for Genesis then (think it might have something to do with if I turn the monitor or the Genesis on first...not sure...totally weird all the way around...). After the reset PS1 and PS2 still work properly like before. FYI, my daisy-chained PVM-20N2U (with older style menu) always works.

THEN, I go to sleep all discouraged, wake up, open the door to the closed room, turn it on and everything now works like it should...


This actually makes me more worried as something that I can't duplicate all the time means that something could be flaking out on the monitor. I'll post some links to crappy videos I took to show you I'm not going insane!

All I can do now is watch and see if it happens again. I also think it has something to do with the 240p or 480i signal from the Genesis and PS1/PS2 having the menu work most of the time, but anything under 240p (which is NES and SNES) the menu doesn't like to display or doesn't have enough pixel-space (although pixel isn't the right word for CRT's) to display, which could be why when I turn on Underscan which gives it that extra ~5% of screen real estate the menu can then display....but I'm totally new to this so who knows....totally looking for some advice from you all. Thank you.


UPDATE: after everything seemed to be working this morning I let the monitor run for an hour or two - came back and I can no longer access the Menu again...(without turning on Underscan - even that trick wasn't 100%). Tried it directly connected, through the S-Video switch, and on SNES and Genesis... Any thoughts?


Here's the initial/original videos:

Initial test (SNES hooked directly to monitor): video showing menu doesn't show up on SNES, but shows up on all the other inputs (also wasn't showing up for NES and Genesis either):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T4mRdl ... load_owner


Second test after factory reset (hooked up through S-Video switch) - the Sega Genesis menu works, then when I flip over to SNES the menu ONLY shows up when Underscan is on (same for NES).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca4hIDz ... load_owner

[Guspaz]

This is something that just happens with the L2. You will need to adjust the geometry until you find a setting that will allow the menu to show up on all consoles. This is why my 14L2 is adjusted to be one or two pixels off-centre.

IIRC there was some setting in the service menu that could be adjusted to fix the problem without impacting the geometry, but it was an option that the service menu profile doesn't save, so it wasn't useful.

[Dochartaigh]

This is something that just happens with the L2. You will need to adjust the geometry until you find a setting that will allow the menu to show up on all consoles. This is why my 14L2 is adjusted to be one or two pixels off-centre.

IIRC there was some setting in the service menu that could be adjusted to fix the problem without impacting the geometry, but it was an option that the service menu profile doesn't save, so it wasn't useful.

Thank you for the info - and I'm glad it's not only me. BUT, you would think that resetting the monitor to factory settings (Menu > Menu+Degauss for the Service Menu > System > Factory > Load > Load Factory Data, correct?), would automatically make the menu appear, right? It doesn't for some reason... Here's what those defaulted numbers give me for H and V Size (this is what you meant by "geometry", correct? I know there's a geometry setting for skewing, adjusting pincushion, etc., but this is what I think you mean)

H Size 86
H Blk Left 77
H Position 94
H Blk Right 0

V Size 40
V Center 50
V Blk Top 43

I'm currently trying to find that magic setting so I can see the menu. I'm starting off with shrinking the H and V size which is kinda what happens when I hit Underscan which usually (but not always) makes the menu appear. So far no luck...


Also, when I'm messing around with the settings trying to get it to appear, the menu likes to flash on and off very fast - is that also a quirk of the L2, or does it mean I still need to find those magic V and H size settings? (sorry, totally new to this, and these are pretty expensive...so I'm trying to get a feel for how everything works).

[Einzelherz]

Iirc it's the HFV CONTROL setting that gets it to stick permanently. Just make sure you adjust it carefully and as always, write down the settings beforehand.

The method to get to it is to go to its setting in under/over scan and the switch to normal.

[Dochartaigh]

Iirc it's the HFV CONTROL setting that gets it to stick permanently. Just make sure you adjust it carefully and as always, write down the settings beforehand.

The method to get to it is to go to its setting in under/over scan and the switch to normal.

When you say "it to stick permanently", you meant to have the menu come up 100% of the time no matter what? And you're right that I'm using the trick of switching back and forth from Underscan to normal to see the settings I'm changing - but even then, sometimes, I'm guessing when a number is too far up or down (or left or right, or to be honest whenever it feels like it), the menu can also disappear in underscan as well (even after a factory refresh).

Anyway, I tried the HFV CONTROL and 246 is it's stock number. Only range is 241-252 before the display turns black (with some shimmering white lines). Tried a bunch of numbers in that range and can sometimes access the menu on SNES and Genesis, but whenever I leave and come back a little bit later I can't access the menu again (and right now can't even access it in underscan either). There simply doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to any of this.



I did find this article though: http://sonypvm.wikia.com/wiki/L2_Series which explains exactly what is happening to me:

Known Quirks
If the menu or other onscreen display fails to appear on certain inputs, or appears in underscan but not regular scan, your deflection settings in the service menu may be at fault. You can try adjusting the MENU DOTCLOCK setting, which may resolve the issue temporarily, but the monitor may not save this value (unlike all the other ones), so it's only a temporary solution. You will instead have to find a combination of deflection settings that does not cause the problem, so you may have to choose between which setting you want to be correct.

I'm messing with the DOTCLOCK setting (whatever the heck that is and can access the menu right now, but I'll bet in 15-20 minutes I won't be able to per usual.



So my workaround right now, especially for when the menu disappears with Underscan on or off is simply memorizing the menu items, adjusting the screen up/down/left/right as I like, then writing down those settings so I can put them back whenever I want. So far I have a setting scheme which works nicely for SNES and Genesis. I'll wait to test more when my NESRGB gets delivered and see if I can find one sweet spot for everything then just leave those settings alone. I'm honestly not knowledgeable enough to mess with anything beyond H Space and V Space for now... Does anybody have any better suggestions?

On a related note, is this the kind of idiosyncratic stuff that people just deal with on PVM monitors? ...just trying to get some kind of baseline here

[Guspaz]

Yeah, I wrote that That wiki was my attempt to try to get some PVM info into a centralized repository, but I never really went anywhere with it.

[Dochartaigh]

Yeah, I wrote that That wiki was my attempt to try to get some PVM info into a centralized repository, but I never really went anywhere with it.

Figures, I hear all the Wiki experts hang out here lol

So do you like the monitor overall though? I had the choice between this one, a 1353, and a 14M2. The white color sold me (and it being mint), along with the RGB card, and how it was like 5-7 years newer than the others (this one is 2004) – and I couldn't tell a difference between the pictures. Just hoping I made the right choice. Have a 20N2U as well, but that's too big to display in my living room.


Also, are you running systems like NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1/PS2? Do you have settings that let the menu be displayed at all times? If so would you mind sharing them with me? I don't know if all settings will work from monitor to another but I'm desperate to try anything to get this work how it should (who would have thought in a friggin million years that a TV's menu wouldn't show up on screen? That's kinda insane don't you think?).

[Guspaz]

Hardly an expert, there's a bunch of stuff that I didn't understand when I worked on that wiki

I do like it, the picture looks pretty good to me. I think that my settings work with everything (at least with NES/SNES/PSX/GCN/Wii), but keep in mind that CRTs are super imprecise devices and that geometry settings that are correct for one will be totally different on another.

Here is a gallery of all the menus/submenus of the service menu and regular menu, hopefully I didn't miss any:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8fqwm05h2chi ... QjF9a?dl=0

The last shot:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7zixbbvyign06 ... 6.jpg?dl=0

Is the 240p test suite running on my SNES showing the 256x224 test pattern. Geometry isn't perfect, but it's pretty good, and part of it being slightly off is tweaking to get the menu to still show up.

[Dochartaigh]

Here is a gallery of all the menus/submenus of the service menu and regular menu, hopefully I didn't miss any

Thank you so much for the images! When I get some time I will go through and start adjusting mine. I also have to research how to get a test pattern to work with (which I currently have no clue about)...and basically learn everything about what to adjust and when and why.

Question about the geometry and the menu: do you think it's ONLY the H and V spacing/size which hits a sweet spot for the menu, or is it also all the other pincushioning and such things as well? ...this is so hard to do because when I think I have the settings right I come back a half hour later and can't access the menus again...

[Einzelherz]

I never noticed my H or V settings altering the menu's ability to disappear.

[Dochartaigh]

I never noticed my H or V settings altering the menu's ability to disappear.

But you have noticed the Geometry settings (that's the Deflection menu, right?) can make the menu disappear, correct? I'm trying to get a baseline on what I should be adjusting to get the menu to always show - even if I have to make a HUGE spreadsheet of all the possible combos of numbers....trying to get a few different areas to focus on first as there's TONS of menus...

I thought it was the H and V space (which is why I asked that above), but it sounds like I'm wrong. When I tried the HFV CONTROL like you mentioned (I tried every number in the 241-252 range it would let me before the screen turns black), the menu still wouldn't show. Any hints on what other exact setting name(s) would you suggest I try?

[Einzelherz]

None of the geometry affected the menu disappearing on my 20L2 and I moved it a fair bit.

I don't recall that my menus were disappearing in over and underscan either, though. I did change the overscan mode's geometry but I can double check the underscan in a few days.

How are you seeing which number you're setting on HFV if the menu isn't reappearing?

[Dochartaigh]

None of the geometry affected the menu disappearing on my 20L2 and I moved it a fair bit.

I don't recall that my menus were disappearing in over and underscan either, though. I did change the overscan mode's geometry but I can double check the underscan in a few days.

How are you seeing which number you're setting on HFV if the menu isn't reappearing?

So wait, you're NEVER had the menu disappear? Is it only Guspaz and myself who have a problem with the menu disappearing? (or am I not understanding?)

For how I'm seeing the menu when it disappears, I can usually (but NOT always) hit the Underscan button and the menu will show (**EDIT** crap, I was saying overscan everywhere...I'm going to edit those to "underscan" which is what I meant). I can then do my adjustments and flip between regular and underscan to see if the adjustments are where I want them to be or not (I'm mainly only dealing with H and V size and position). If the menu disappears in both regular AND in underscan mode, I can switch to Line B or RGB or Option 1 inputs and the menu ALWAYS shows up - I can then (with the menu still on), switch back to Line A (which is what everything is plugged into) to see the adjustments (where the menu usually immediately disappears as soon as I go back to Line A. Does that make sense?

[Einzelherz]

Here's my version:

When I bought my 20L2 after it got warm in RBG/Comp the menu would disappear. Geometry adjustments made no difference as to whether or not the menu would stay or get lost.

Under and overscan are just two separate geometry settings for any given channel. The way I fixed my menu problem was to wait until the menu disappeared, then switch into underscan where it was still visible. Then find the HFV Control under FOCUS, hit enter to be able to adjust it, and then switch back to regular scan.

This way you're still on the specific channel and adjusting its values, even if you can't see them. I was able to find a value that kept the menu active at all times.

[Gered]

For what it's worth, my experience has been the same as what Einzelherz describes with my 20L2MD. I recall this was discussed a while back in another thread where a couple other L2 users also mentioned similar observations.

[Dochartaigh]

Thanks for the more hints guys, I've been searching the forum for HOURS now and think I found the specific post you were talking about, and it pretty much says the same thing you all did....(which is just unfortunate it's not working for me - I will try again).

Also found one person (who I PM'd) who said the menus don't work in 240p only 480i which is what I thought had something to do with it (since Genesis it seems to work the most - but ONLY on newer Genesis games, and only -I think- when the display says 480i...even if it's really a 240p signal) to see if he has any more info. Here's just some quotes I found in my searches:

I have an 20L2 and it requires a 480i image to show the menus, they don't work in 240p.

Between the 20M2MD and the 20L2, I believe they're from a similar timeframe (maybe the 20L2 is on average 5 years newer), and the 20M2MD has a few advantages over the 20L2. While the 20M2MD lacks an option card slot, it makes up for it by having two separate RGB/YPbPr inputs (the 20L2 has one, and would need an option card installed to get two), and the 20M2MD has both overscan and underscan buttons, while the 20L2 only has an underscan button.

In truth, the underscan and overscan buttons are not actually tied to a specific function, they are really just profile buttons for a different service menu config, so you basically just get two extra profiles instead of the 20L2 only having one. I've actually got the underscan button on my 14L2 doing the exact opposite, zooming in for game boy use.

So, as long as you don't want to use SDI digital input, or use two composite video inputs simultaneously, most of the other specs are identical, and I'd go with the 20M2MD.

Found it!

To fix no OSD on PVM L2 do the following:
(with no signal feed)

- press menu
- press degauss + enter to get into service menu
- press Down arrow to move to deflection menu and select enter
- press enter to get into the Focus sub menu
- the option you want to change is HFV CONTROL

mine was set at 246. Moving it to 247 or down to 242 made the menu come back.

- press Deguass and enter together to get out of service menu

This option did not reset after I powered off the PVM. It might reset after I unplug it.

[Dochartaigh]

Just an update: I thought this might be linked to how I was using S-Video cables before....but just wanted to post and say that it does it with RGB cables (csync) from my SNES and Genesis as well, so there goes that theory...

You would think a monitor like this could display it's menu in 240p!

Anoyone else with any suggestions?

[Guspaz]

My menu is working correctly in 240p, although it is obviously displayed at half resolution.

[BigBoss1964]

I hope some site admin would read this.
I am having an issue with my Sony PVM-14M4 where after tweaking the VBLANKING 60 in service menu to get rid of the RGB lines - there is no display at all on the screen now. Not even the Menu OSD appears anymore. I created a seperate thread for this about 8 hours ago with full detail and submitted it and it has sunk into the abyss and I cant even find the draft for it to repost it.

Any assistance will be appreciated and if any admin sees it please can you make my post live.

Thank you.

[amb47uk]

Hi All,

Thought I’d move into the world of PVMs and bought me a 20M2MDE Sony PVM. Image is pretty good, but I cant get an OSD Menu to come up in any mode also.

I have tried to reset to factory settings blind, but nothing happens. I am able to adjust H & V size/position by blind fluke. But the menus ive mapped don’t seem to line up with what I am doing.

I have tried access the menus using SNES 240p , SNES 480i (from 240p test suite), PS1, to see if different channels produce the menu.... nothing.

I cannot even get sync with Gamecube or PS2 via component

After some fiddling, I managed to get a garbage service menu somehow (see photo).

From various online vids and the post above, I have tried mapped the service menus out to operate blind, can someone confirm I am correct? or is the 20m2mde slightly different menu?

Specifically I want to try either a factory reset or change HFV control to try bring the menu back.





Any help is much appreciated.

[nissling]

The menus shown in the montage is from a PVM-**L4 or L5. It's entirely different compared to the 20M2 in design and structure but most functions are present on both monitors.

[amb47uk]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if the menu would be the same or different as mine?

Well I guess I've wasted a couple of hours mapping out the menus for a different monitor lol.

Does anyone have a 20m2mde able to tell me how to factory reset or change HFV control to try bring the menu back?

Thanks