PS1 is an underrated console for shoot 'em ups?

[MrOldSchoolCool]

Kind of feels that way to me, and I think there's a few main reasons for this:

1.) The Saturn takes a lot of attention away from it since it also has a great shoot 'em up library, and most people who have a Saturn have an action replay cart at the very least. In other words, more people collect Saturn imports than PS1 imports from what I've seen.

2.) A lot of it's shoot 'em ups are 3D (in terms of how they look rather than how they play)

3.) The PS1 is more well-known for other things. RPGs of course, but also some of the games that gained a lot of commercial success like Crash Bandicoot, Metal Gear Solid etc. As a result, the shoot 'em ups kind of get overlooked.

Thoughts?

[Herr Schatten]

Depends on wether you're talking about collectors or players. Among people who actually play the games, the PS1 is well regarded, not least because of exclusives like Einhänder, R-Type Delta and Gradius Gaiden. The PS1 ports of Donpachi and Dodonpachi are usually also considered superior to their Saturn counterparts.

Collectors, on the other hand, don't seem to flock to the shmups quite as much as they do on the Saturn side of things, although the prices Harmful Park fetches show that there are exceptions from that rule.

[Bassa-Bassa]

although the prices Harmful Park fetches show that there are exceptions from that rule.

Just checked this. Ebay prices: from $740 to $1700 (used units). Is this a bubble at this point?

[BulletMagnet]

In other words, more people collect Saturn imports than PS1 imports from what I've seen.

I'm honestly tempted to cite this as the primary reason; the majority of both systems' shooters stayed in Japan, but while most Western players could build a decent all-around PS1 library for themselves just by sticking to domestic releases, if you want to make owning a Saturn worthwhile you pretty much have to import, and thus are a good deal more likely to encounter its full catalogue while never knowing much about the PS1 import scene. At least this is how it seemed to me before prices went insane and "classic" gaming was gentrified beyond the reach of anyone with more sense than money.

[MintyTheCat]

Depends on wether you're talking about collectors or players. Among people who actually play the games, the PS1 is well regarded, not least because of exclusives like Einhänder, R-Type Delta and Gradius Gaiden. The PS1 ports of Donpachi and Dodonpachi are usually also considered superior to their Saturn counterparts.

A PS1 is worth owning for these Shmups alone. I bought my PS1 in 1999 and the only reason at that time was to play R-Type Delta. It's one of my favourite R-Type games.
I have to say that for me personally the PS1 was a machine that I used mostly to play ports of other systems on - we played a lot of Metal Slug in the early 2000s on it.

Back the there was a prevalence of '3D good, 2D bad' and as such, there were lots of 3D titles on the PS1 that look kind of crap compared to the artwork found in 2D games. It was a point when the industry was going through a change and this reflected the changes in the presentation of many games.

I never had an Action Replay myself for the Saturn - is it worth getting one?

These days I actually use the PS1 to play the DDP port but mostly as an NES Emulator.

Saturn had fewer games to the PS1 but the overall appeal is greater for me as it has so many 2D games and I hardly every play anything 3D even these days.

The Saturn was only on the shelves in shop for a couple of years or so and as such if you wanted to play anything new after a point, then you simply had to import. I began importing as soon as I got a Saturn - Thunderforce 5, In the Hunt and Metal-Black the first games I got my hands on.

[Mero]

although the prices Harmful Park fetches show that there are exceptions from that rule.

Just checked this. Ebay prices: from $740 to $1700 (used units). Is this a bubble at this point?

Holy shit, that must be one of the most expensive things I own. Seems insane.

[MintyTheCat]

although the prices Harmful Park fetches show that there are exceptions from that rule.

Just checked this. Ebay prices: from $740 to $1700 (used units). Is this a bubble at this point?

Holy shit, that must be one of the most expensive things I own. Seems insane.

I dare not look at the prices for most of what I own. The GF asked me on Friday casually what the price of an ibara PCB was....yes, a bit expensive. I have many Shmups that are worth a fortune only due to when I bought them - a long time ago. Prices are nuts these days and it takes the fun out of it for many.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Imagine finding out that you made a tiny scratch to that $1000 disc the other day just because you don't like to use ugly backups. It indeed takes the fun out for both owners and non-owners in any way.

[MintyTheCat]

Imagine finding out that you made a tiny scratch to that $1000 disc the other day just because you don't like to use ugly backups. It indeed takes the fun out for both owners and non-owners in any way.

I am still using carts but most of the time I use a Flashcart for the cart based machines. With CD based consoles I am slowly moving to ODEs too. I actually do this though as it is a hassle to have to go and find the games and it is simply easier and more efficient to have all the games in one place. Still using original hardware though.

I quite like Terra Onion's PCE device.

I kind of never feel that a CD based game is 'worth it', but for a cart it works for me These days though, many games are too pricey to be fun. I remember buying Alien Soldier on the MD for a mere GBP 1 !!! Gone are those days.

[heli]

Just checked this. Ebay prices: from $740 to $1700 (used units). Is this a bubble at this point?

Yes there is a bubble and its fake, just like a rembrand of van gogh they treat it, not because it is worth that to play.
You all better sell at the highest price while the bubble last, this bubble is just starting and wont last forever.

You can easy play PS1 on a raspberry pi by the way.
Lot of great games there, only with HD the PS1 sucks, it have integer 3D, not so much noticable on old TV.
I really like space shot if i remember the name good, its really cheap, i like it, i dont understand why it is so cheap.

[OmegaFlareX]

although the prices Harmful Park fetches show that there are exceptions from that rule.

Just checked this. Ebay prices: from $740 to $1700 (used units). Is this a bubble at this point?

Well, I dunno about that. I checked "sold items" and there were zero results in US ebay for whatever timeline they use (it's not displayed). Meaning, no one in this part of the world is buying at the listed prices so it's not worth nearly as much as it appears.

Importing on the Saturn was much much easier than importing on PS1, which required a JP console or modchip. Saturn ST-Keys and PARs were super cheap, easy to use, and had very high compatibility. It's the route I took 20 years ago.

[Bassa-Bassa]

although the prices Harmful Park fetches show that there are exceptions from that rule.

Just checked this. Ebay prices: from $740 to $1700 (used units). Is this a bubble at this point?

Well, I dunno about that. I checked "sold items" and there were zero results in US ebay for whatever timeline they use (it's not displayed). Meaning, no one in this part of the world is buying at the listed prices so it's not worth nearly as much as it appears.

So how does this work? Are the dozen of sellers there just waiting for a reasonable offer through ebay and call it a day?

[MrOldSchoolCool]

"So how does this work? Are the dozen of sellers there just waiting for a reasonable offer through ebay and call it a day?"


eBay is pretty much always loaded with listings that have prices way over what the games actually sell for... and those listings just sit there forever. Most people serious enough to make an expensive purchase will check what the actual sold listing prices are, so it's rare anybody ever bites. I guess that's what the sellers are hoping for though.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I've just learnt that there's a sold items listing option on ebay...

A used Japanese Astal sold for $225!? Whats going on.


Edit - Harmful Park (used but complete) sold for 900 € the other day:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333930605318

[Lord British]

With only about $150 you can turn your PS3 into a monster with a Japanese PSN account. I recommend doing that while you still can. Einhander, Harmful Park, Gradius 5 and even some solid TGCD games for $6 each.

[Sengoku Strider]

Yes there is a bubble and its fake, just like a rembrand of van gogh they treat it, not because it is worth that to play.
You all better sell at the highest price while the bubble last, this bubble is just starting and wont last forever.

Counter-argument: it's not a bubble, video games were - and still might be - genuinely undervalued.

There are tons of comic books selling for well into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not even rarities or first appearances, a copy of Fantastic Four #47 or whatever will get into six figures. Batman #1 went for $2.2 million. Action Comics #1, first appearance of Superman? Just sold for $3.25 million.

A Honus Wagner baseball card is worth $2.8 million.

There's a Pikachu Pokemon card worth $100 000.

Star Wars merchandise? It's nuts. VHS, toys, all kinds of things in the 4-5 figure range.

The video game industry is the largest media business in the world. It's bigger than movies, music or books have ever managed to become. So the idea that foundational or rare items in this medium that will have a larger world-wide base of nostalgia buyers won't end up just as valuable if not more than others doesn't make a lot of sense.

Think about this: there are restaurants in any major city where you can spend more than $1200 for dinner for two. A video game which might well appreciate in value is nothing for a lot of people in Silicon Valley or in higher tax brackets anywhere.

Especially if they can't get a date Friday night for a $1200 dinner.

[bigbadboaz]

Yeah, there's simply no way to know where prices will go moving forward. It's just one specific aspect of predicting the future.

I don't see any reason for a big crash, but maybe things will stabilize at something close to current price levels. For example: desirable US Saturn titles currently sell in the $300-1500 range. Can I see people consistenly paying more and more for that selection over time? Not really.. there are only so many in the target market, with so much money to spend.

Regarding eBay listings, yeah there are a ton of Buy it Nows at seemingly ridiculous prices. Prices across the board have risen a lot as gaming demand spiked during lockdowns. Sellers seem to be trying to milk this inflation. Yeah a lot of listings just sit there, but if you search enough sold items, you see the occasional one that got grabbed up at the asking price. Sellers who can afford to sit on their inventory probably figure that in these conditions, every once in a while someone with money to burn and less patience will say, "fuck it" and bite on the price. IF you can afford to wait for the sale, that type of return is definitely worth it.

At the same time, for truly desirable titles, running an auction can yield results similar to the BiNs on the site at the same time. Prices are indeed higher than ever, and with a deadline in sight buyers seem to think some of them are ultimately worth paying.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Are there good global alternatives to ebay for selling old/import videogames in general (other than Facebook)?

[bigbadboaz]

Relevant Reddit groups? I dunno, for me eBay is still easily the go-to, especially if you want to reach internationally.

[Sumez]

I never had an Action Replay myself for the Saturn - is it worth getting one?

It doubles as a ram expansion as well as save backup, so it has that going for it. (it doesn't function as a memory card though, you need to manually move data from the internal battery backed memory)

As for playing imports though, you are probably better off with a hardware mod. Especially if your console is PAL, as the action replay won't get it into 60hz mode as far as I'm aware.

[Sengoku Strider]

I never had an Action Replay myself for the Saturn - is it worth getting one?

It doubles as a ram expansion as well as save backup, so it has that going for it. (it doesn't function as a memory card though, you need to manually move data from the internal battery backed memory)

As for playing imports though, you are probably better off with a hardware mod. Especially if your console is PAL, as the action replay won't get it into 60hz mode as far as I'm aware.

I have the black all-in-one cart, it's been good for me so far. You do have to worry about unofficial carts not having carved edges to slot cleanly into the contacts, but on the other hand there's also no reason to ever take it out. The only other issue is that most games seem to recognize it as a memory card, but not all. So you'll generally want to keep some internal memory clear.

Either way, it matches much better with the Saturn than the kinda goofy looking Action Replay does.

[BrianC]

Also there seems to be no way to bypass the Action Replay menu for lightgun games. That's one reason why I have a JP Saturn (white early model 2, still compatible with a couple of the infamous games like Space Harrier and Outrun).

[MintyTheCat]

I never had an Action Replay myself for the Saturn - is it worth getting one?

It doubles as a ram expansion as well as save backup, so it has that going for it. (it doesn't function as a memory card though, you need to manually move data from the internal battery backed memory)

As for playing imports though, you are probably better off with a hardware mod. Especially if your console is PAL, as the action replay won't get it into 60hz mode as far as I'm aware.

My original Saturn was a PAL machine that was modded with a hardware mod: a small Microcontroller back in the 90s.
I actually have several Saturn machines these days and a few are Japanese - plenty in the case that one fails

I have used the official SEGA Memory Carts, and this model:

https://segaretro.org/File:Saturn_hss-0 ... _front.jpg

I never really used ARs on the PS1 and Saturn but they were handy on the Megadrive, C64 and the Amiga

[MintyTheCat]

I never had an Action Replay myself for the Saturn - is it worth getting one?

It doubles as a ram expansion as well as save backup, so it has that going for it. (it doesn't function as a memory card though, you need to manually move data from the internal battery backed memory)

As for playing imports though, you are probably better off with a hardware mod. Especially if your console is PAL, as the action replay won't get it into 60hz mode as far as I'm aware.

I have the black all-in-one cart, it's been good for me so far. You do have to worry about unofficial carts not having carved edges to slot cleanly into the contacts, but on the other hand there's also no reason to ever take it out. The only other issue is that most games seem to recognize it as a memory card, but not all. So you'll generally want to keep some internal memory clear.

Either way, it matches much better with the Saturn than the kinda goofy looking Action Replay does.

There was plenty of stock fore the Saturn lying around int he late 90s to early 2000s when I got my hands on the Back-Up Cart. In the UK, the Saturn wasn't on the shelves in shops for too long; I remember blinking and the Dreamcast was out Quite poor on SEGA's side really when you consider the cost of R&D.

[Austin]

A big reason I think the Saturn steals its thunder is that importing has traditionally been much easier on that platform. No mod chip requirement, weird disc swapping or the necessity of an import console, for instance. Just a plug-and-play cart and you are good to go. This is just speculative but it might also be due to the Saturn having been much less popular out West, with only a handful of shmups released. It has this elusive allure to its STG library. PS1 in comparison got a fairly healthy amount of quality shmups, so less may be inclined to even investigate into its imported library of STGs.

Anyway, personally speaking I have come to the conclusion in recent years that you can’t have the Saturn without the PlayStation, and vice-versa, when it comes to shmups. They both have amazing selections of unique titles, and the overlap that is there makes for interesting conversation. Best era of shmupping, IMO.

[Rastan78]

Best era of shmupping, IMO.

If I had to play shmups from only from any 5 year span it would have to be from 93 to 98.

As far as exclusives that aren't arcade ports, I can't think of much on Saturn that beats Delta or Gradius Gaiden. But I traded in basically all my small stash of PS games at the mall to grab Delta when it came out. A little biased.

The port of G Darius took kind of ding with the new HD one out. It's still essential on PS if you're playing on a CRT but if you just want to conveniently play arcade accurate G Darius, the PS port is sort of obsolete now in that sense.

Too lazy to look up the link, but Digital Foundry did a video on PS launch titles that went into quite a bit of detail about the Parodius port. Comparing screen resolutions etc.

[Jonpachi]

Not too lazy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0opA-E4Wqps

[Sumez]

A big reason I think the Saturn steals its thunder is that importing has traditionally been much easier on that platform. No mod chip requirement, weird disc swapping or the necessity of an import console, for instance.

I don't think that's really true.
Chipped PS1 are ubiquitous, there are hundreds and thousands more of those out there, than modded Saturns or import cartridges. It was definitely easier to import on that platform than any other console at the time.
Although they were traditionally used to run "backups", it feels like that was one of the primary sources of the PlayStation's popularity in the first place. Of my three PS1s, two of them randomly happened to be modded, and I had no hand in doing that.

[Sumez]

Not too lazy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0opA-E4Wqps

Whoa, that's a really detailed analysis, going into some details I'd never realised before. I didn't remember that the Saturn versions displayed more of the stage than the arcade versions, but now that they showed it I do remember that "arcade/full" setting in the options. I pretty much haven't touched my Saturn disc since I got both PCBs.
Though the way the PS1 version cuts off the end of the screen in Parodius Da! is almost a dealbreaker. It actually makes a big difference when it comes to grabbing bells and such.

Of course it's worth noting that neither version of that port is accurate to the arcade. I played the hell out of the Saturn version, but trying to beat Da! on PCB now, the difference in how rank increases throughout the game is massive. It's way more difficult. Scoring is bugged too, but as long as you don't compare scores directly that's less of an issue to me.

[bigbadboaz]

I don't think that's really true.
Chipped PS1 are ubiquitous

This. PS1 was probably the only console/generation where modding was arguably mainstream. It didn't really matter that it was a solder mod; it was simple, the chip was only like ten bucks, and there were independent shops all over providing the service. There were casuals buying PS1s simply because it was common knowledge you could get all the games free if you only bought the "right" system.

I think it's quite simple; the early rap that PS1 was all 3D and Saturn had been designed as a "2D powerhouse" stuck.. forever. Even after the generation had gone on long enough for each console to prove itself well in its weak area. Truthfully, in the end I think the Saturn did finish with the stronger shmup library, even if not by a lot. Its strongest games show it did indeed have more 2D muscle, and most of its original shmups that made the jump to PS1 lost something on the way (Thunder Force, Soukyugurentai). The real PS1 standouts deserve all their accolades but it's not enough to eclipse library to library.