Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[LordHypnos]

Let me muddy the waters further regarding the Guwange port. Check out this archived replay from XBL Blue. Notice how at 4 minutes in, the player is coinstreaming off the stage 2 boss just like one would in the original version. Now try doing that in MAME, or even on a romswapped PCB. It doesn't work because coinstreaming doesn't exist in Blue boss fights! So if the Blue ROM was extracted from the XBL version, why are they mechanically different? Is the dump just utterly screwed up? Is there some additional layer running on top of the XBL version giving it mechanics that don't exist in the ROM? Is the XBL version merging the two games at runtime and creating an unholy union? What the fuck is happening?

That is truly bizarre. What the hell?

[trap15]

I'm 100% certain it was extracted from the XBL version (I witnessed it), but it's certainly possible that the XBL emulator was patching the game to change some things. It could even be possible that enabling/disabling it can be done by changing the save data, which didn't have defaults extracted (and potentially setting the defaults in the test menu might disable it). Lots of possibilities, but definitely strange.

[Technicolor]

Giving the iOS port of Truxton a try, these menus are a nightmare on multiple levels but the game itself seems pretty fun. Given that I don’t know much about the original, how does it compare? Did they compensate for the flexibility of touch movement with regards to the difficulty, or is this version just overall easier?

[Creamy Goodness]

Did Sorcerer Striker get pulled from the Japanese PSN? I can find all if the other Shottriggers releases, but not that one.

[BIL]

Nope, still there and ready to purchase. Copy/pasting the Japanese title ( 魔法大作戦 "Mahou Daisakusen") should do the trick.

[Creamy Goodness]

Weird. I tried using the Japanese title and still couldn't find it. Guess I can't spell or something.

[Technicolor]

Seems my Truxton question wasn’t of interest, so I’ll move on to another. This this one’s probably too complicated for the misc thread, but I’m wary of opening more threads so soon unless you guys think it’s appropriate.

I was glancing over the recent top 25 poll results and saw a lot of conversations about the longevity of a game becoming more and more important to the forum as time went on— things like games making you work to further optimize them, looking outside of the game for further knowledge, so on and so forth. What exactly would you guys say grants a scoring system that kind of longevity, especially one that remains fun at higher levels of optimization? How much of it comes from complexity and how much comes from emergent gameplay, intended or otherwise? Is something like this even quantifiable, or are there concrete things that can help?

[BulletMagnet]

I'm not a high-level player, but offhand I'd say that a high score ceiling is a significant part of it, i.e. it's very difficult to achieve anything like a "perfect" run or a counterstop, there's most always more points to push for, and the more aggressively you seek them the trickier it gets. The innate complexity and other factors you mention are a part of this, since too simple or one-dimensional a system would be too easy to maximize to remain competitively interesting for long, though I think the developer also needs to (hopefully deliberately) make its game's scoring all but impossible to completely "master" in order to keep the pros busy.

[Rastan78]

What BulletMagnet said is spot on. Also I think the progression of how you build skills and how they layer adds to longevity, or at least the appeal of going farther. Whereas some bosses in shmups will always just reward a basic no miss kill with a given point value and maybe a couple destructible parts here or there, really well designed bosses in games like Battle Garrega or Darius Gaiden will have beginner, intermediate, advanced strategies.

In general learning a boss might go something like:

1. Get the basic survival down while going for 1cc. Quick kill the boss without worrying about extra parts/tricks to keep risk and rank low.
2. Start keeping the boss alive a bit longer to get basic destruction bonuses.
3. Learn any obscure and convoluted tricks and setups needed for max points. Sometimes these will also have multiple levels of trickiness vs reward. Start with safer, less aggressive strategies and build from there.
4. Add in milking. Starting with a bit as you feel comfortable or have extra lives to play with building up to longer milking resulting in more rank increase.
5. Get to the milking section ASAP by doing the first phases aggressive speed run style to maximize your available time before the boss times over.
6. Learn to destroy the boss at the last possible second before he times over.
7. Maintain your ability to do all of the above at higher and higher ranks as you go.

So it's about having an organic progression with a next thing to learn or perfect whatever level you're playing at now. Copying a superplay won't get you there like it could with a simpler boss, bc you can't simply skip to the last step without mastering the earlier ones.

Good fighting games also do this with ever expanding combo systems etc. That sort of breadcrumb trail that leads you through scoring progression is also what will let players fall in love with a game enough to actually still want to play it when the first 1cc is a distant memory.

[NMS]

Seems my Truxton question wasn’t of interest, so I’ll move on to another.

Didn't see your question, I gave the game a try out of curiosity since I'm familiar with the arcade version. Note that I have an Android phone, but it seems to be the same editor as the one on iOs so I guess the game is the same. I only tried normal mode, and the game keeps crashing so I couldn't experiment a lot, only with stage 1.
- The level design itself (enemy placement, items) seems to be pretty much the same
- Enemy bullets are slower on the phone version. It's not that noticeable at first, but by the end of stage 1 we have some pretty fast bullets in the arcade version, here they're still kinda slow.
- Enemies are less aggressive, fire less often
- Hard to confirm because I can't pointblank efficiently with touch controls, but the big enemies and bosses seem to have less health. I remember them being damage sponges on arcade, but here they die pretty quickly.
- The ship is really fast even at base speed (didn't really notice a difference when taking a speed powerup), unlike the arcade game where you start slow. This combined with the slower bullets means that dodging is much easier.
- Not sure, but the ship hitbox seems a bit smaller in the phone game. I may be wrong about that one though.

So, everything is easier in the phone game (for normal mode), but I'm terrible with touch controls and struggled a bit.

[LordHypnos]

Anyone ever figured out a good control scheme for rotary arcade controls in mame (e.g. Mad Planets, possibly Forgotten Worlds)? I tried mapping it to right analog stick, but I don't think that quite worked (though maybe I should try adjusting the sensitivity...). Default was Mouse, but it didn't seem to do anything.

[Technicolor]

I'm not a high-level player, but offhand I'd say that a high score ceiling is a significant part of it, i.e. it's very difficult to achieve anything like a "perfect" run or a counterstop, there's most always more points to push for, and the more aggressively you seek them the trickier it gets. The innate complexity and other factors you mention are a part of this, since too simple or one-dimensional a system would be too easy to maximize to remain competitively interesting for long, though I think the developer also needs to (hopefully deliberately) make its game's scoring all but impossible to completely "master" in order to keep the pros busy.

Hmm… Good to note, but all this I’ve either heard or somewhat intuited. The best speedrun games seem to operate on similar principles. It’s good to at least have that reinforced, though.

What BulletMagnet said is spot on. Also I think the progression of how you build skills and how they layer adds to longevity, or at least the appeal of going farther. Whereas some bosses in shmups will always just reward a basic no miss kill with a given point value and maybe a couple destructible parts here or there, really well designed bosses in games like Battle Garrega or Darius Gaiden will have beginner, intermediate, advanced strategies.

In general learning a boss might go something like:

1. Get the basic survival down while going for 1cc. Quick kill the boss without worrying about extra parts/tricks to keep risk and rank low.
2. Start keeping the boss alive a bit longer to get basic destruction bonuses.
3. Learn any obscure and convoluted tricks and setups needed for max points. Sometimes these will also have multiple levels of trickiness vs reward. Start with safer, less aggressive strategies and build from there.
4. Add in milking. Starting with a bit as you feel comfortable or have extra lives to play with building up to longer milking resulting in more rank increase.
5. Get to the milking section ASAP by doing the first phases aggressive speed run style to maximize your available time before the boss times over.
6. Learn to destroy the boss at the last possible second before he times over.
7. Maintain your ability to do all of the above at higher and higher ranks as you go.

So it's about having an organic progression with a next thing to learn or perfect whatever level you're playing at now. Copying a superplay won't get you there like it could with a simpler boss, bc you can't simply skip to the last step without mastering the earlier ones.

Good fighting games also do this with ever expanding combo systems etc. That sort of breadcrumb trail that leads you through scoring progression is also what will let players fall in love with a game enough to actually still want to play it when the first 1cc is a distant memory.

This is really interesting! Again, the basics I already knew, but seeing it laid out in a concrete example like this is super helpful.

With that said, are there any comparable examples of non-milking games? Not because I particularly like or dislike milking, but just out of general curiosity.

Seems my Truxton question wasn’t of interest, so I’ll move on to another.

Didn't see your question, I gave the game a try out of curiosity since I'm familiar with the arcade version. Note that I have an Android phone, but it seems to be the same editor as the one on iOs so I guess the game is the same. I only tried normal mode, and the game keeps crashing so I couldn't experiment a lot, only with stage 1.
- The level design itself (enemy placement, items) seems to be pretty much the same
- Enemy bullets are slower on the phone version. It's not that noticeable at first, but by the end of stage 1 we have some pretty fast bullets in the arcade version, here they're still kinda slow.
- Enemies are less aggressive, fire less often
- Hard to confirm because I can't pointblank efficiently with touch controls, but the big enemies and bosses seem to have less health. I remember them being damage sponges on arcade, but here they die pretty quickly.
- The ship is really fast even at base speed (didn't really notice a difference when taking a speed powerup), unlike the arcade game where you start slow. This combined with the slower bullets means that dodging is much easier.
- Not sure, but the ship hitbox seems a bit smaller in the phone game. I may be wrong about that one though.

So, everything is easier in the phone game (for normal mode), but I'm terrible with touch controls and struggled a bit.

Hm. Good to know, thanks for the answer. I guess I’ll treat it as basic training… I feel like I fly around way too recklessly for my current skill level.

[XoPachi]

Uh...
How do I get PatriotDark running?
The downloads from this forum don't give me anything I can actually launch. I remember just being able to download and play it as a kid.

[Technicolor]

What are all the situations in which autobombs are active in Dodonpachi Blissful Death (the iOs port)? I’d like to turn them off if I can.

…Nevermind, they’re always on, aren’t they? Guess I’ll just deal with that.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm pretty sure autobomb can be toggled as an option under the options for most of the Cave handheld ports.

[Creamy Goodness]

Any news on the Psikyo Collections for PS4 or the M2 Toaplan release. They were both announced a while ago, with some follow up news, but even there hasn't been much of that for a while. Really looking forward to these especially the latter so the teasing really sucks haha.

[Technicolor]

If you made a series of mods for Garegga/Futari/Ikaruga/etc to replace score with some form of time, or maybe made similar shmups that replaced score with time, could you sneak score runs into GDQ?

Think like the Crash Bandicoot time trials, but extended to an entire game. I’m giving this some pretty serious thought— if it became common practice, it’d become a strange era for shmups and other score-based competition, but it could be a way to shine a spotlight on this genre and kind of expose how arbitrary the distinction really is.

At the very least, we could start putting in dedicated side modes that essentially convert a game’s scoring system into time. It’d get the same sort of idea across without giving up the traditional scoring system, and could even lead to proper competition that’s distinct from score.

[DMC]

If you made a series of mods for Garegga/Futari/Ikaruga/etc to replace score with some form of time, or maybe made similar shmups that replaced score with time, could you sneak score runs into GDQ?

Think like the Crash Bandicoot time trials, but extended to an entire game. I’m giving this some pretty serious thought— if it became common practice, it’d become a strange era for shmups and other score-based competition, but it could be a way to shine a spotlight on this genre and kind of expose how arbitrary the distinction really is.

At the very least, we could start putting in dedicated side modes that essentially convert a game’s scoring system into time. It’d get the same sort of idea across without giving up the traditional scoring system, and could even lead to proper competition that’s distinct from score.

Yeah, worth an attempt at least!

One could argue that STG developers gave up shooting* around 1995, gave up dodging** around 2010, and maybe give up scoring next?
* games like Batsugun featuring weapons that covers the whole screen from left to right
** games like DDP DFK featuring bullet cancelling elements.

I think maybe battle royale shmups, or party game shmups could be a thing?

[SPM]

Image Fight: Does anyone know how to "properly" kill the third boss? I can't see a consistent pattern at all and surviving is a matter of luck for me! Can do the safe spot trick, but don't want to XD

[Technicolor]

Yeah, worth an attempt at least!

One could argue that STG developers gave up shooting* around 1995, gave up dodging** around 2010, and maybe give up scoring next?
* games like Batsugun featuring weapons that covers the whole screen from left to right
** games like DDP DFK featuring bullet cancelling elements.

I think maybe battle royale shmups, or party game shmups could be a thing?

I feel like you’re joking about the battle royale/party shmups, but I would unironically play the shit out of those. Though I guess you could argue that shmup-esque roguelites kinda cover the latter… and you could take the ideas of versus shmups and just blow them up, really. There’s still so much room for genre fusion on the table.


Going back to the time thing, I actually had been seriously considering mods for some of the slower-paced games like Truxton or the Touhou series, since you could just freeze the in-game timer whenever nothing’s on the screen. Giving those games a real outlet for speedrunning seems genuinely cool. As for faster games with more going on, I’d personally give them a more tongue-in-cheek treatment— imagine firing back on all the people complaining about Futari at GDQ by making a mod called “Futari Done Quick.”

[Lethe]

How are you going to make time in Futari? Manage the slowdown so the game runs faster? Play it in MAME without slowdown? I don't think it has any speed mechanics whatsoever. Attempting to speedrun Battle Garegga is about as harebrained as attempting to speedrun a visual novel. You say the distinction with scoring is arbitrary, but then if it were, why would "proper competition distinct from score" matter? It can't be arbitrary and proper and distinctive at once.

The point of speedrunning is to provide an objective measure of skill in games where that's not normally tracked or is badly implemented. But shooting games already have a measure of skill which is a thousand times better supported than speed, called score. And the few games that do support speed play do it natively anyway (other examples: Mecha Ritz, Kingdom Grandprix). Even Touhou games started tracking your capture times - which is the only part where speed matters or can really be influenced; the rest of the game is irrelevant however the timer is implemented.

[Jonpachi]

I'm playing Muchi Muchi Pork/Pink Sweets on the 360 and for some reason the Save and Load options are greyed out. I have a ton of HDD space available, but the game won't let me save my settings, forcing me to remap buttons and screen settings every time I play. Anyone know what the heck is going on?

[Klatrymadon]

Image Fight: Does anyone know how to "properly" kill the third boss? I can't see a consistent pattern at all and surviving is a matter of luck for me! Can do the safe spot trick, but don't want to XD

It's been a decade since I cleared it but I'm pretty sure you can fly up between a couple of the turrets which fire the lasers, so that they miss you entirely.

Failing that, parking in one spot towards the bottom of the screen and tap-dodging vertically as they turn towards you should see you through each attack, and there's plenty of time to shoot the boss between each volley. There could be something I'm forgetting, though, so I could be talking nonsense...

Edit: oops, I somehow didn't realise you were referring to the same trick there.

[DMC]

Technicolor: I was not sarcastic, I think battle royal and STGs would go well together. The caravan footage of about 20-30 players challenging each other is maybe something worth building upon.

Any suggestions on a good stick that is Switch compatible and suitable for shmups? Around a 150$ budget. This hori arcade one?

Edit: or the mini one? Or an 8bitdo modded with some seimitsu stick? I am slightly concerned but not obsessed with lag.

[Jonpachi]

Any suggestions on a good stick that is Switch compatible and suitable for shmups? Around a 150$ budget. This one?

Yep, that one is great! I haven't felt any need to mod it, as all the components feel great straight out of the box.

[DMC]

Great, thanks! I think I favor a simple option that works well out-of-the-box.
Edit: Think I'll mod an 8bitdo after all.

[Technicolor]

How are you going to make time in Futari? Manage the slowdown so the game runs faster? Play it in MAME without slowdown? I don't think it has any speed mechanics whatsoever.

Read: Tongue-in-cheek. Obviously you can’t speedrun Futari or Garegga in the conventional sense. The idea is to point out that time and score are fundamentally similar to a mainstream gaming audience which has forgotten about scoring. Especially since score competition has been piggybacking off of GDQ to the ire of speedrun purists. I’m admittedly a little bitter about this, so feel free to write the idea off on those grounds if you want, but I’m cynical enough to wonder how many of said purists would be satisfied with such a simple change on paper.

I do genuinely think that slower shmups could have more potential, though. Just freeze the in-game timer whenever there are no enemies on the screen in Truxton or Touhou, and you at least have a baseline for more interesting speedrun competition even if it might not be especially popular (and Touhou 6 was at GDQ as a genuine speedrun not long ago, so who knows?).

You say the distinction with scoring is arbitrary, but then if it were, why would "proper competition distinct from score" matter? It can't be arbitrary and proper and distinctive at once.

Sure it can. Every scoring system has a relationship with time at its core, even if not stated outright (it rarely is), so I personally view Time Attack as just another type of scoring competition. Because of that, I view the way that people treat them as completely unrelated as silly. That’s a matter of categorization that has no bearing as to how multiple scoring systems can be distinct and meaningful in the context of a specific game. Hellsinker has three different scoring systems, all of which being completely and arbitrarily independent from one another— and having unique routing and competition since they have little redundancy between them.


Even if you ported a shmup’s scoring system over wholesale to the hypothetical timer mode, the fact that a timer ticks up/down has the potential to change the route from the interactions with multipliers alone. Make other changes here and there and you’ve essentially made yourself a shortcut to a new Arrange Mode. Not that I think such a large undertaking as modding an old classic would be worth it for just that… tongue-in-cheek, remember, and I generally agree that timers are ill-suited to shmups. Nobody wants Sine Mora Futari.

[Lethe]

Moreso than most spectators not knowing that scoreplay exists, many of them don't even know what these games look like! And despite that and despite "purists", the response to these showcases has been very positive. People are impressed by the spectacle of these games; there's a glamour there that hits on a different level to your contemporary speedrun stereotype of taking an easy, probably long game with nostalgia appeal and abusing the hell out of it. Even dedicated shmup events, full of people actually interested in the genre, involve many a first exposure or first appreciation of a featured game. Why not continue to champion the best qualities of these games instead of bastardizing them to pander to a pedantic minority or a mainstream that will never care?

As to popularity, I would rather have one player working on their goals, exploring games to the best of their means, than a hundred spectators who have only ever been exposed to some neutered version of play. That applies to those who get all their experience from traditional superplays too. Just having live events at all is an immeasurable improvement. It's kind of similar to the fighting game situation, where "dead genre" was cried for years until it wasn't and started getting absorbed into e-sports crap, while all the while the players who actually cared quietly kept playing. Except in this case, you're not hampered by a lack of immediate opponents.

I'm not going to try with the twisted logic re: "arbitrariness" and speed being a substitute for score because there's elements of timing and because games have different mechanics. There's a difference between innovation and differing conditions of play, and forcing the square peg into the round hole. Perhaps I shouldn't be arguing because tongue in cheek, right? Tongue in cheek.

[Terramax]

Perhaps a silly questions but: Esprade, Switch.

How do you unlock energy mode (where fallen enemies drop energy points that fill up your barrier meter)?

Is it automatic? Or do you press / do something in order to initiate it? I notice you need to have at least 200 en points to activate it. But sometimes it doesn't happen to me until at least 250 plus.

[BulletMagnet]

Once you're fully powered up enemies start dropping red point items; as you collect those the counter you mentioned fills up. Once it's maxed out, if you use your barrier bomb enemies briefly start dropping energy items to help fill it back up. After that the counter resets to zero and takes more point items to fill up than before.