Ouch, that sucks Mike. Do you remember what models they were? My HD CRT story dates back to November-December 2002-- I began looking for a set earlier that year, as I had purchased a set of GC component cables direct from Nintendo when they released and really wanted to experience this true 480p picture everyone was talking about. I got a deal on a shelf demo 36" Hitachi Ultravision Digital at Conn's for $900. I think price on brand new units were around $1300 at the time. It had a great picture-- curved tube, slot- shadow mask, very deep blacks. Could also accept 640x480 and 800x600 VGA in.I'm glad you guys like yours. Sadly my experiences were less positive. First encounter with a HD-CRT was saving up all summer and buying a 36in monster with my Best Buy employee discount (side note: their extended warranties are a totals scam). Still came out to be $2000+. At the time, I never figured out why 240p games didn't look right (I mean I didn't even know what 240p was back then). Ended up giving the set to my parents. The set also had shit geometry and convergence.
2017 rolls around, got back into retro-gaming and totally forgot about this. Bought ANOTHER shitty 1080i CRT with shit convergence and geometry that wouldn't look right. Took me 3 months to get rid of that thing and stumbled onto a FV310 for $40
Interesting to hear that 540p is a nice work around. I'd always kind of assumed these things were the worst of HDTVs with their garbage first gen video scalers and all the ills of CRTs (weight, geometry convergence).
Awesome! Take all the time you need. According to this, the 20L5 is 1080i capable, so Im guessing it should. Will be interesting to see how the HD CRTs vs the 20L5 sync up to the 1080i/540p stuff.mikechi2 wrote:Haha, I bet that shadow mask HD-CRT was something else!
I'll knock something out, hopefully soon-ish and DM it to you and vol.2. Kind of curious to see if it tracks on my 20L5. I'm not sure if the wife will let me get another CRT at this point, though LOL.
The HS510 absolutely accepts 540p. It's shows as 1080i when you are in the service menu. AFAIK, you have to use the digital input for these sets to bypass the DCR chip, because the signal path from the analog inputs turns off the HDPT bypass. Basically, the digital chip behind the HDMI/DVI input just looks for the vertical frequency and it bins the resolution as one of the things it can do. when HDPT is turned on, anything that comes in at ~32-34kHz is just binned as 1080i and sent straight to the tube. It doesn't care anymore that is progressive than an SD TV cares that an NES is 240p. If you go too far away from 33kHz, it turns the DCR chip back on and tries it's best to bin the signal and process it.Josh128 wrote:This is why Im not sure if the set will actually accept "540p" at the HDMI port, but it will definitely accept 1080i. Correct me if Im wrong, but a "non shifting field" 1080i mode should be indistinguishable from a theoretical 540p no?
Due to the fact that everything else on the 5X still works, Mike thinks that the SCART port itself may have fried somehow. I have no idea how that could happen though as literally nothing has changed in my setup. We went through my setup (Insurrection cables and two Otaku switches) and nothing there should be the problem. If it was something else like a power supply issue then nothing would work so it can't be that. You'd think that if something in my setup was causing the issue it would have happened before now as I've been using the 5X for a month now. I just turned it on and heard that high pitched whine for a second and that was it. I still get sound out of the SCART port so it's partially working.fernan1234 wrote:Yikes, SCART strikes again. Nice that it will be looked into, will be interesting to know what went wrong.
Can't wait to see how this turns out. This will make HDCRTs an amazing purchase. Locally, no one snags them due to not being ideal for classic gaming. If this works it'll make these HDCRTs downright amazing for classic gaming. Thanks for your awesome products and support!mikechi2 wrote:Haha, I bet that shadow mask HD-CRT was something else!
I'll knock something out, hopefully soon-ish and DM it to you and vol.2. Kind of curious to see if it tracks on my 20L5. I'm not sure if the wife will let me get another CRT at this point, though LOL.
Thanks for reporting you guys' findings. So many things can go wrong with SCART connectors and ports that you'll probably never know for sure what happened.Tempest_2084 wrote:Due to the fact that everything else on the 5X still works, Mike thinks that the SCART port itself may have fried somehow. I have no idea how that could happen though as literally nothing has changed in my setup. We went through my setup (Insurrection cables and two Otaku switches) and nothing there should be the problem. If it was something else like a power supply issue then nothing would work so it can't be that. You'd think that if something in my setup was causing the issue it would have happened before now as I've been using the 5X for a month now. I just turned it on and heard that high pitched whine for a second and that was it. I still get sound out of the SCART port so it's partially working.fernan1234 wrote:Yikes, SCART strikes again. Nice that it will be looked into, will be interesting to know what went wrong.
Please don't take negative opinions about SCART personally, or as if it reflects on you simply because you are a SCART user. If it has worked well for you, then just happily rock on.Konsolkongen wrote:fernan1234>
Please stop with that. Sounds unlikely that the SCART connector is to blame. More likely it’s a fault with the signal coming from the console, the switch or it’s the RetroTink itself that had a fault.
I know that you constantly feel the need to bring up how horrible a connector SCART is, but I live in Europe and I’ve never personally had a single issue with loose SCART connectors nor do I know of anyone else who had.
Your crusade against SCART is for the most part unjustified and I fear that your posts can lead to other people feeling unsafe using it, which just isn’t fair.
What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct meGuspaz wrote:People should absolutely feel unsafe using SCART with the RT5X, because if that SCART cable is sending TTL sync, it could damage the RT5X. So people need to verify their cable is actually adhering to the SCART spec and sending video-level sync. They don't need to worry about that if they're using any of the RT5X's other inputs.
The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15. They are just passive connectors. Why do you think it's unlikely that a part failed inside the RetroTink? Not saying that it did, but parts can failfernan1234 wrote: Please don't take negative opinions about SCART personally, or as if it reflects on you simply because you are a SCART user. If it has worked well for you, then just happily rock on.
If faulty signals were sent to the RT5X it has to be because the SCART format or construction made it possible to do so. We can't be sure what exactly was at fault ultimately, but obviously it was enabled by the SCART port in some way.
I don't think he said anything incorrect.Konsolkongen wrote:fernan1234>
Please stop with that. Sounds unlikely that the SCART connector is to blame. More likely it’s a fault with the signal coming from the console, the switch or it’s the RetroTink itself that had a fault.
I know that you constantly feel the need to bring up how horrible a connector SCART is, but I live in Europe and I’ve never personally had a single issue with loose SCART connectors nor do I know of anyone else who had.
Your crusade against SCART is for the most part unjustified and I fear that your posts can lead to other people feeling unsafe using it, which just isn’t fair.
Funny you said "appropriate" to exclude various real situations where inadvertently plugging in an "inappropriate" SCART cable would cause damage (see: ntsc vs. pal Nintendo scart cables)Konsolkongen wrote:What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me
A general system failure would be odd, since the RGB and YPbPr systems share many of the same ICs, just using different pins (i.e. MUX) and in this case only the pins related to SCART it seems like are fried. Again obviously I'd have to get it and see.Konsolkongen wrote:What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct meGuspaz wrote:People should absolutely feel unsafe using SCART with the RT5X, because if that SCART cable is sending TTL sync, it could damage the RT5X. So people need to verify their cable is actually adhering to the SCART spec and sending video-level sync. They don't need to worry about that if they're using any of the RT5X's other inputs.
You are right that enthusiast solutions like using professional equipment like Extron RGBHV matrixes can be problematic if you’re not cautious. I would hope that most consumer grade SCART switches follow the appropriate standards. Should one output at TTL level it’s a piece of trash, obviously
The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15. They are just passive connectors. Why do you think it's unlikely that a part failed inside the RetroTink? Not saying that it did, but parts can failfernan1234 wrote: Please don't take negative opinions about SCART personally, or as if it reflects on you simply because you are a SCART user. If it has worked well for you, then just happily rock on.
If faulty signals were sent to the RT5X it has to be because the SCART format or construction made it possible to do so. We can't be sure what exactly was at fault ultimately, but obviously it was enabled by the SCART port in some way.
Many (most?) consoles send TTL sync and rely on resistors in the cables to attenuate it. But you can find for sale cables with and without the appropriate restitors, because there are often many consoles that use the same connector (like, everything from RGB-modded NES through the GameCube) that may have different requirements (sometimes even different between regions), and RGB mods often have the ability to select from TTL or 75ohm, and the enduser isn't necessarily going to know if they don't have the right cable. They probably won't even know that TTL sync exists. You will never find a component cable that is sending anything but video level sync, but you can certainly find SCART cable/console combinations that will happen in the real world (perhaps through ignorance) that do this. Many SCART switches will get fried by TTL level sync too...Konsolkongen wrote:What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me
There is one difference there, which is that we expect separate TTL sync on DSUB15 as this is the defined standard for using a DSUB15 as an RGBHV connector. So you will at least not have to worry about frying the device.Konsolkongen wrote:The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15.
This is true, but also want to add that I personally do find fault with the connector itself simply because there are way better alternatives, which takes me to...darcagn wrote:It's just like saying "Don't plug a USB drive you find on the ground into your computer or you may potentially face huge malware/security issues" -- no one would infer that's because of the USB connector itself
One key difference is that a DSub-15 connector is much less likely to become accidentally dislodged from a socket, very much unlike a SCART cable which can shift even by its own weight or lack of locking for its bulky structure, and that already is a potential failure entry point.Konsolkongen wrote:The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15. They are just passive connectors. Why do you think it's unlikely that a part failed inside the RetroTink? Not saying that it did, but parts can fail
I admit that I don't know anything about sourcing RGB SCART cables in the US. Then again isn't there plenty of reputable sellers of RGB SCART leads these days? I guess I can see the issue where someone who cheaps out and buys from an unknown seller in China could end up with a bad cable, but I don't see how that applies to only SCART, that could be true for all cables.darcagn wrote: It isn't a slight against SCART itself, it's the makeshift "SCART ecosystem" that we have now. Yes, you live in Europe, where SCART is and was common and an official standard, but if you come to North America practically EVERY SCART cable you come into contact with should be met with skepticism because unlike in Europe almost all SCART accessories that made it to North America are of dubious knockoff Chinese origin or are of dubious hobbyist origin.
Well of course. I would assume that one uses the cable that fits their console. I agree that Nintendo SCART cables are a mess, but that's entirely Nintendos fault.darcagn wrote:Funny you said "appropriate" to exclude various real situations where inadvertently plugging in an "inappropriate" SCART cable would cause damage (see: ntsc vs. pal Nintendo scart cables)Konsolkongen wrote:What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me
Yes, you are right about this when it comes to mods it does get a bit more complicated.Guspaz wrote:It might be Nintendo's fault, but you're never at risk of sending 5v or 12v into the RT5X with a composite, s-video, or component cable. SCART is the only input on the RT5X where you have to worry about frying it by using the wrong cable with the wrong Nintendo console.
...
Many (most?) consoles send TTL sync and rely on resistors in the cables to attenuate it. But you can find for sale cables with and without the appropriate restitors, because there are often many consoles that use the same connector (like, everything from RGB-modded NES through the GameCube) that may have different requirements (sometimes even different between regions), and RGB mods often have the ability to select from TTL or 75ohm, and the enduser isn't necessarily going to know if they don't have the right cable. They probably won't even know that TTL sync exists. You will never find a component cable that is sending anything but video level sync, but you can certainly find SCART cable/console combinations that will happen in the real world (perhaps through ignorance) that do this. Many SCART switches will get fried by TTL level sync too...
There are great reputable sellers but most people who buy cheap cables are not going to be aware that it even matters to the degree that damage could be done.Konsolkongen wrote:I admit that I don't know anything about sourcing RGB SCART cables in the US. Then again isn't there plenty of reputable sellers of RGB SCART leads these days? I guess I can see the issue where someone who cheaps out and buys from an unknown seller in China could end up with a bad cable
SCART is unique, being not a video standard but a connector standard that carries multiple video standards. It means sometimes there is a necessity to include components in the cable instead of in the console, without which (e.g. in a cheap knockoff cable) can mean unexpected resultsKonsolkongen wrote:but I don't see how that applies to only SCART, that could be true for all cables.
Yeah, it is Nintendo's fault there. But it doesn't matter whose fault it is, at the end of the day if you connect random SCART cables found in North America you will easily end up with dead equipment, and not just on Nintendo hardware. And this doesn't happen with composite cables, s-video cables, component cables, or HDMI cables.Konsolkongen wrote:Well of course. I would assume that one uses the cable that fits their console. I agree that Nintendo SCART cables are a mess, but that's entirely Nintendos fault.
Just about every console manufacturer were happy to put the required components in the cable rather than the consoles themselves to save a few pennies. We are not going to disagree that it would be a lot simpler if all SCART cables were just straight throughdarcagn wrote: SCART is unique, being not a video standard but a connector standard that carries multiple video standards. It means sometimes there is a necessity to include components in the cable instead of in the console, without which (e.g. in a cheap knockoff cable) can mean unexpected results
None of the other common video standards does this
How about a PAL Saturn sending +9 Vdc down the composite video line if you use a NTSC cable?Guspaz wrote:And yes, the NTSC vs PAL SCART cable problem that was mentioned is certainly real, if you plug an NTSC SNES SCART cable into a PAL SNES console, you will send 12 volts down the sync line and bad things will happen.
Looking like you need overvoltage protection if you're receiving SCART, basically. Voltage clamping on the pin 20 video/sync line for sure, but I suppose a supergun could do it down any of the video lines. I could see somebody screwing up voltages on pins 8+16 for blanking and switching too I guess.Guspaz wrote:It might be Nintendo's fault, but you're never at risk of sending 5v or 12v into the RT5X with a composite, s-video, or component cable. SCART is the only input on the RT5X where you have to worry about frying it by using the wrong cable with the wrong Nintendo console.
I think BNC and DE15 into SCART cables are major contributors here as anything using BNC and/or DE15 on the output side will be TTL. Didn't Retro Gaming Cables recently stop selling certain versions of these cables for just this reason?Konsolkongen wrote: The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15.
