I think I hate traditional shmups now

[GaijinPunch]

After playing nothing but Cave, and maybe some Shikigami or Psyvariar on the side, I tried to go to something traditional. Gunbird 2. I popped it in, spent a good hour or so on it, and I honestly feel that it's a gigantic piece of shit. I'm trying to dodge bullets, but you can't dodge one or two... you have to dodge the whole swarm. WTF? Wonder if it's just a phase.

[sininenat]

What's the definition on 'manic' and 'traditional'? Because I thought Gunbird 2 fit into the former category. Then again, my criteria goes about as far as: Shitload of bullets = Manic. Does it go deeper than that?

Ignoring that; I think most Psikyo games are just downright inaccessible, because of that insurmountable feeling you describe. The exception being Dragon Blaze, which is one Psikyo game I can go back to, since it seems to move at a reduced rate, and whenever I lose a life, I mostly feel it was due to a mistake that I can improve upon. More than can be said for Gunbird 2.

[Ghegs]

Well, yes, that's pretty much the difference between manic and non-manic shmups. In manic shmups you dodge single bullets, in non-manics whole bullets clusters.

The term manic can be loosely interpreted anyway, "bulletcurtain" works better.

Oh, and <3 Psikyo <3

[99pence]

So a manic shooter is manic. A non-manic shooter is non-manic. Then a modern shooter is manic and a traditional shooter is non-manic? What about a traditional manic shooter and what about modern non-manic shooters? What about modern traditional non-manic shooters?

[Ord]

So a manic shooter is manic. A non-manic shooter is non-manic. Then a modern shooter is manic and a traditional shooter is non-manic? What about a traditional manic shooter and what about modern non-manic shooters? What about modern traditional non-manic shooters?

Oh lord.....

[Ex_Mosquito]

So a manic shooter is manic. A non-manic shooter is non-manic. Then a modern shooter is manic and a traditional shooter is non-manic? What about a traditional manic shooter and what about modern non-manic shooters? What about modern traditional non-manic shooters?

Yeah, what he said.

[CMoon]

In manic shmups you dodge single bullets, in non-manics whole bullets clusters.

This is the best definition I've heard of manic so far (which shows how bad the term 'manic' is.)

Gunbird 2 a steaming pile of shit? Ouch!

[professor ganson]

Gunbird 2. I popped it in, spent a good hour or so on it, and I honestly feel that it's a gigantic piece of shit. I'm trying to dodge bullets, but you can't dodge one or two... you have to dodge the whole swarm. WTF? Wonder if it's just a phase.

I know it sounds lame, but you might want to try an easier level of difficulty. Normal difficulty gets ridiculously hard for me by the third level or so. I had to tone down the difficulty to get into the game. Perhaps as I get more comfortable with the game, I'll go back to normal difficulty.

[Frogacuda]

After playing nothing but Cave, and maybe some Shikigami or Psyvariar on the side, I tried to go to something traditional. Gunbird 2. I popped it in, spent a good hour or so on it, and I honestly feel that it's a gigantic piece of shit. I'm trying to dodge bullets, but you can't dodge one or two... you have to dodge the whole swarm. WTF? Wonder if it's just a phase.

Playing too much of one style can make it difficult to go back to another. After playing too much Cave stuff, I can't even play Raiden Fighters because the bullets are too fast and I'm not used to staying far away from enemies. And Ikaruga... I loved it when I was into it, but it's such a different style of play from a manic shooter I can't just pick up a round and get back into it.

That said, Gunbird 2 and Shikigami are pretty similar. I don't know what about those two you see as separating one into "modern" and one into "traditional"/

[Rob]

I'm trying to dodge bullets, but you can't dodge one or two... you have to dodge the whole swarm. WTF?

Try harder 'cause you really can.

[Andi]

To play the Devil's advocate here. I honestly can't stand manic shooters. I'll take a few intelligently aimed bullets to a bunch of idiotic bullet spam anytime.

[BulletMagnet]

I've always considered Psikyo's stuff closer to the R-Type "memorizer" sub-genre than most others do: since in most of their games they throw nearly as many bullets at you as Cave or the like does (and often at faster speeds and with poorer visibility), but gives you less forgiving hit detection to work with, you have to know almost exactly what's coming your way in order to be able to dodge it, not to mention that you need to know what occasions to save your bombs for (a lot of earlier shmups have a delay before they detonate), and in later shmups you also need to know when to save your limited charge shots for, as well as when to "power down" to keep the rank in check. On top of that, since the first few stages are randomly selected and the difficulty increases as you go along, you need to have played enough of those stages to be able to conquer them all at various difficulty levels. Not to mention that you can usually only earn one extra life, and need to go through most of the game to score high enough to do it. Classic credit muncher tactics...you've just got to keep playing until you know the game like the back of your hand, not only to score well, but simply to survive it. After playing Cave stuff methinks it probably would come as a rather frustrating shock...maybe not even in such circumstances specifically.

*prepares for flames*

[FRO]

^^No flames, cool as a cucumber here...

I would have to agree w/ BulletMagnet. I've noticed the same thing. I have Gunbird 2 for DC, Strikers 1945 II for Saturn, and I've played other Psykio shooters (mostly in MAME) that appear to act that way. When I first played S1945II and Gunbird 2 I thought they were manic, but realistically they could be perhaps the meeting point between a manic shooter & a traditional shooter. There ARE bullet storms in most Psykio games, but at the same time there are lots of sections with fast moving single bullets or just a few bullets here and there.

I have a love/hate relationship with Psykio games for this reason. I really want to like Gunbird 2 a lot, but it's quite frustrating to me. Same goes for Strikers 1945 II, though I believe I've conquered the majority of hate for this game and realize that I just need a LOT more practice

[cigsthecat]

You can dislike Gunbird 2 because it's too hard for you, but not because it's unfair. It never is; everything in it can be dodged with practice.

[GaijinPunch]

Guys -- don't get out of hand. I illustrated that I basically went from one extreme to the other (or close to it) and didn't like the results. Gunbird 2, while not that old, is dated compared to what I've been playing mostly. It just didn't click with me that's all. If it makes you feel better, there's way worse stuff, but I usually don't get so turned off after an hour, hence the comment.

I do like the definition of manic... pretty damn good.

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

After playing nothing but Cave, and maybe some Shikigami or Psyvariar on the side, I tried to go to something traditional. Gunbird 2. I popped it in, spent a good hour or so on it, and I honestly feel that it's a gigantic piece of shit. I'm trying to dodge bullets, but you can't dodge one or two... you have to dodge the whole swarm. WTF? Wonder if it's just a phase.

and thats why i perfer psikyo bullet patterns to any shmup company's bullet patterns...its takes patience and lots of skills for master psikyo's psycho bullets

[alpha5099]

I think Psikyo is manic. Bullet Hell or Bullet Curtain games are a form of manicness, not the entire sub-genre.

[Nemo]

Since when isn't Gunbird 2 a manic shooter? Personally, I feel that any shmup with a lot of projectiles and ones that move pretty fast-really fast and requires precise dodging on the part of the player classifies as a manic shooter. By the definitions being thrown out around here, people would be classifying the acknowledged "godfather of manics", Batsugun, as a non-manic shooter.

[GaijinPunch]

I don't know... seems to me the bullets don't get too heavy until 4th stage... maybe 3rd boss, but even then there's no real "spray".

[sethsez]

Also, since when was Psikyo, of all companies, indicitive of "older" shmups as a whole? I can't stand them, but it's not because of their age... it's just because I find their games entirely uninspired.

[Nemo]

I don't know... seems to me the bullets don't get too heavy until 4th stage... maybe 3rd boss, but even then there's no real "spray".

Ehh, the same can be said of Donpachi and Dodonpachi. This is how I break shmups down:

Traditional - 2 sub-divisions:
1. Classical - Straight-forward ThunderForce types.
2. Patternized - Memory-based, Gradius types.

Modern (aka Manic) - 3 sub-divisions:
1. Neo Classical - The same ideals as classical with a lot more and faster bullets, Psikyo and Raizing games.
2. Bullet Storms - Maze-like shmups from Cave.
3. Graze-Intensive - Shikigamis and Psyvariars.

Classical obviously evolved into Neo Classical, Patternized into Graze-Intensive, and Bullet Storms being a combination of both.

[Blade]

I play Shmups for 2 Reasons:

1 I suck at them and wish to get better (regardless of the Manic-factor or not)

2 I like Mechanical Stuff. Mecha, Jets, Bases going Boom, that sort of thing.

Let's keep this thought process simple, shall we?

[landshark]

Some psikyo games, with enough practice, allow you to elliminate alot of the bullet sprays. You do this be knowing exactly where the enemies are coming in and destroying them as they enter the screen.

Watching and experienced player often makes the game look quite easy in some areas as they are controlling the game. But if you put an inexperienced player in the same game, the will be bullet spray all over the place.

[Blue Lander]

2. Bullet Storms - Maze-like shmups from Cave.
3. Graze-Intensive - Shikigamis and Psyvariars.

Are these really two different categories? Bullet Grazing just seems like an addition to Bullet Storms rather than a completely different category. It influences gameplay, but I look at it as more of a scoring mechanism nuance.

And where would Ikaruga fit into all of this?

[Nemo]

2. Bullet Storms - Maze-like shmups from Cave.
3. Graze-Intensive - Shikigamis and Psyvariars.

Are these really two different categories? Bullet Grazing just seems like an addition to Bullet Storms rather than a completely different category. It influences gameplay, but I look at it as more of a scoring mechanism nuance.

And where would Ikaruga fit into all of this?

I thought about that, but there's is overlay with all the categories and the dynamic of leeching bullets is a completely different experience than that of a Cave game. Basically the concept of bullet dodging has been replaced with bullet manipulation in the graze-intensive variety, and ignoring this aspect in the latter makes the games pointless to play. Oh, and Ikaruga isn't a shmup, it's a puzzle game.

[landshark]

/me throws some wood onto the fire.

Ikaruga?

4. Bullet Eater

[FRO]

Since when isn't Gunbird 2 a manic shooter? Personally, I feel that any shmup with a lot of projectiles and ones that move pretty fast-really fast and requires precise dodging on the part of the player classifies as a manic shooter. By the definitions being thrown out around here, people would be classifying the acknowledged "godfather of manics", Batsugun, as a non-manic shooter.

Whereas I would consider Batsugun to be manic as can be. I get blown away really quickly in that game.

[CecilMcW00t]

LOL this thread reminds me of other forums discussing Metal sub-genres. XD

[zimeon]

Maybe I'm just charging open doors here, but just to give my 5 cents:

I have noticed large differences whereas the bullets are concerned in shmups today: Some games contain some sort of bullet eating technique: Gigawing, Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun (partly) where you use a shield to absorb the bullets. These games tend to have bulletsprays, that are not supposed to be sneaked through but completely avoided or absorbed.

In the games where you do not have a shield to absorb bullets, there are two types (as far as I've noticed): The bullet pattern type, where the bullets are like coordinated fireworks (barrages you are supposed to dogde through) and the more or less non-coordinated bullet havoc where there are lots of ships who fire one bullet (or something like that) each, not creating a firework-like pattern, but just random bullets everywhere. To the first category we have Mushihime-sama or the Shrine Maiden games, and to the latter... some dojin shmups Iäve tried.

So:
1) Bullet sprays
2) coordinated barrages
3) non-coordinated single-bullet havoc

Not, of course, said that any one game can contain only one of these.

Apart from that, I can imagine the type where the enemies themselves (and not mainly their bullets) or the background are a big threat. Like Gradius, maybe. This is probably by most considered as "traditional", although that word would be bad to use.

So, what the original poster would say was that he went from coordinated barrages to bullet sprays. Did I get that right?

[sffan]

So:
1) Bullet sprays
2) coordinated barrages
3) non-coordinated single-bullet havoc

Not, of course, said that any one game can contain only one of these.

Apart from that, I can imagine the type where the enemies themselves (and not mainly their bullets) or the background are a big threat. Like Gradius, maybe.

It seems that most posters here have been attempting to categorize verticals. Horizontals, which are a whole other major division, deserve their own sub-categories separate from how we see the verts.

What I'm saying is that the difference between verts and horizontals is greater than the differences between manics, grazers, etc in the vert realm only. So keep them separate. No need to throw Gradius into this.