RetroTINK 5x-Pro

[fernan1234]

Wow sold out in less than 15 min. I wonder how many units were in the initial run?

Based on the timing and order numbers we're seeing, I'm gonna guess about 2500 units were available.

[Tempest_2084]

I was #21631, so assuming the numbers go sequentially... he must've made a ton of them.

You think so? That would mean he made at least 2500 of them and they sold out in less than 15 minutes. If that's true then that's amazing.

[Josh128]

I was #21631, so assuming the numbers go sequentially... he must've made a ton of them.

I'm excited.

No shit? I thought I read somewhere there was only going to be about 300 or so in the initial run? Just by your number to mine he had at least 1500+.

[Chacranajxy]

I was #21631, so assuming the numbers go sequentially... he must've made a ton of them.

You think so? That would mean he made at least 2500 of them and they sold out in less than 15 minutes. If that's true then that's amazing.

Closer to 5 minutes, I think. Probably crazy sales velocity either way.

But then... people haven't been able to get a PS5, or a 3080, or leave the house for... how long now? Demand's probably through the roof for something fun like this.

[darcagn]

Got myself in at order 21777 at 11:01 CT. With the numbers and times posted here it looks like he sold over 1,555 units in less than 9 minutes. Well done, Mike.

This'll be my first TINK product (always thought of them as the lower-end) but it looks like it will do what I need it to do and I just sold my Framemeister off for $700 last month.

I'm kinda at a weird juncture now though. Between all of the HDMI mods I've installed and the MiSTer, I don't really need analog processing anymore except for the Sega Saturn and PS2 and I can use my OSSC or BVM for those...
I almost skipped out on this but my living room 4KTV has no analog input so this would be perfect to use as a generic analog input interface for all types of devices.

And what can I say, I'm probably addicted to purchasing scaling equipment, because count me in for that PixelFX box, too.

[768peeistrash]

First and foremost - congrats to Mike Chi!

Always making awesome devices/toys/tools for toys, whatever we're calling it these days, glad these flew off the shelves in single digit minutes. I honestly expected no less.

Secondly- I had it in cart but deliberated and lost consequently (my loss). But I think this is for the best for people that were 100% set on getting a unit and would take no less than not getting one.. if they could help it.

The deliberation was - my use case is (2015 OLED) 9600 65" LG, which is 50ms lag which is truly the fault of the tv, no doubt. That's according to rtings. It works and is serviceable but its not the best. My bedroom 55" C6 is much better with 34ms but.. I mostly use retro stuff in my living room.

I also have a 14N5U PVM (s-video, non-rgb) I mostly use with my retro systems - its got my Saturn and ps1 in rotation hooked up currently. I love the experience of my CRT so much that I got an io standard board on the way and Antonio Villena's s-video adapter for pairing my MiSTeR with it. The 1080p digital look is so clean but I want the CRT look, and I sadly don't own a genesis (would need to mod for s-video), SNES (jailbars scare me), NES (no excuse just haven't, maybe mods too), then there's space limitations in my apartment and budget constraints on top of flashcarts.

Got my Saturn, n64, DCHDMI'd Dreamcast, and PS1 re-capped so they perform well for the next decade or two.

BUT - I am using thefoo.83 s-video cable for Saturn, OEM s-video for ps1, and retro-access s-video for N64 (which is not RGB modded). When I do use these with my HDTV, its paired with a 2x pro which I love and smoothing filter really helps

I feel in order to benefit from 5x pro offering, I'd need:
Retrovision component cables for PS1
insurrection labs SHART for saturn
and some kind of n64 mod, if I'm not just going the PixelFX all digital route which is pricy too, on top of pricy cables.

Ps2 could stand to boost from 5x pro with motion adaptive deinterlacing which looks AWESOME, and I already have oem component cables for that, *but* NGL my ps2 sits in storage most of the time.

my Gamecube I had a Carby too, but I sold it because my GC didn't get much use aside from GBI over s-video to my CRT for GB/GBA titles. Even though Wii U HDMI output isn't as clean as GC's with a mod, I found it 'good enough' when in the mood

Anyways sorry for the long explanation but - any thoughts? Should I just stay put with 2x pro for a long while?

[Chacranajxy]

Ha, already got my shipping notification. Mike works quick.

[Tempest_2084]

I just thought of something, I assume my NES and SMS 3D Glasses won't work with the 5X Pro. Not that that's a huge loss (although the SMS glasses are pretty good), but I guess I'll need to keep my CRT around still (well that and for lightgun games).

[Gunstar]

OP updated with links to Fudoh's review and Bob's review video.

[eightbitminiboss]

Finally time to put the ol' Framemeister out to pasture. I've avoided playing a bunch of games on the Saturn. Really pleased on how well the order process went. Didn't even see an error on my end.

[AyeYoYoYO]

All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.

[BuckoA51]

I expect both of them to be utter tinker-fests; to a level that I'll hardly ever actually play anything on them. But that's alright, since I got my 5X for that

You are allowed to ignore these advanced options you know

[Josh128]

All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.

4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.

[PixelPhoenix]

Incredible writeup, Fudoh. I Appreciate you taking all the pros and cons into account.

I picked up a 5X today, but I do wonder about the potential chroma upsampling error you mentioned. That stuck out to me too. I'm not too bothered by added input delay, though.

When it arrives, I'm eager to test it out.

[thchardcore]

Waiting for all the Framemeisters to hit ebay next week.

[AyeYoYoYO]

All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.

4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.

Well yes, for most gaming situations 4ms is undetectable. But for hosting local Fighting game tournaments, or playing relatively high level FG, where we are already shaving off milliseconds where we can (Samsung terrace is as fast as CRT’s now), and I could scale MVC2 UP TO 1440p from a Dreamcast thru a RetroTink 2x classic & mcable gaming edition TOGETHER in 0.553ms, [0.053 for the 2x classic and 0.5ms for the mcable), then my display only added 8.9ms, I can’t justify “upgrading” to a newer scaling solution which would add a minimum of 3.5ms more.

For most people this is a non-issue.

[bobrocks95]

Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes. If this is true that's a huge win for set-it-and-forget-it. Is this true or is it just when you select an optimized timing mode?

Also, any further aspect ratio controls? I'm definitely a staunch 4:3 person but some people like 8:7 and it's nice to set the Super Gameboy to something very close to square pixels with a single toggle on the OSSC (that's probably the only use case for me).

[Guspaz]

Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes. If this is true that's a huge win for set-it-and-forget-it. Is this true or is it just when you select an optimized timing mode?

Also, any further aspect ratio controls? I'm definitely a staunch 4:3 person but some people like 8:7 and it's nice to set the Super Gameboy to something very close to square pixels with a single toggle on the OSSC (that's probably the only use case for me).

You can see the full menu system in the manual (https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf)

There aren't any aspect ratio settings, technically, just different sampling settings.

[Atariboy]

Looking forward to seeing the firmware updated with a PSP specific mode. Can't wait to retire my Lenkeng scaler for the PSP for when I feel like playing something like Sega Rally Revo on my TV.

[bobrocks95]

Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes. If this is true that's a huge win for set-it-and-forget-it. Is this true or is it just when you select an optimized timing mode?

Also, any further aspect ratio controls? I'm definitely a staunch 4:3 person but some people like 8:7 and it's nice to set the Super Gameboy to something very close to square pixels with a single toggle on the OSSC (that's probably the only use case for me).

You can see the full menu system in the manual (https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf)

There aren't any aspect ratio settings, technically, just different sampling settings.

Looks like auto phase detection is for the optimized sampling modes, but generic probably looks good in most cases anyways.

Looking forward to pictures in a couple weeks. And for someone to test out GBI

[N64]

.

[Chacranajxy]

Another review worth watching from Scarlet Sprites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SLixWd6EI

Focuses more on arcade stuff and was a lot more interesting to me as a result.

[Kretinou]

Another review worth watching from Scarlet Sprites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SLixWd6EI

Focuses more on arcade stuff and was a lot more interesting to me as a result.

Thank you

[BuckoA51]

Bob's video made it sound like the phase detection was automatic even in the generic 4:3 sampling modes.

It has never been necessary to dial in phase in the generic sampling modes. I agree, Bob was a little bit unclear about this, the advantage comes in the optimal modes it offers which give near OSSC levels of sharpness with no need to adjust phase.

[ldeveraux]

I just sold my Framemeister off for $700 last month.

Yeah? I call BS

[RocketBelt]

There's a listing for Retrotink on ebay already for £550

[AyeYoYoYO]

All the new video modes and settings look great so far.

But since I primarily play fighting games, platformers, and shmups, one aspect is concerning:

RetroTink 2X Classic added 53 MICROSECONDS of lag.
Thats 0.053 milliseconds.
It came out two years ago, and was famed for being lightning fast scaler.

RetroTink 5X Pro adds at a minimum ~0.25 FRAMES of lag, which is ~4 MILLISECONDS.
thats with no options turned on.
Options can take it above 20 milliseconds.
While thats still much faster than TV scalers, it's SLOW compared to his RetroTink 2x classic.

It's literally about 20 times slower than the 2x Classic.
While that's still relatively fast, 20 times slower for 3x-4x larger scaling isn't the jam for the FGC, or shmups. imho.
I may keep my 2x classic + MCable gaming edition setup after all, since both can be used in conjunction to scale 240p smoothed up into 1440p with enhanced color and contrast, both combined in under 1 millisecond.

4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.

The earlier figures of 4ms minimum, and over 20ms with all functions on were based on Mike’s own site, stating “<0.25 frames” since a frame = 16.67ms, I estimated 4 as <0.25 frames. And the earlier estimate of over 20ms with all bells and whistles turned on, were again based off his website stating “~1.25 frames” which I took to mean “16.67ms + 4ms = 20.67ms”

Apparently it’s fastest operation is down around 2ms, and slowest at 17ms, per RetroRGB.
Which is still significantly slower than a RetroTink2x + MCable gaming edition which combined are under 1ms.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Waiting for all the Framemeisters to hit ebay next week.

It's already happened. There are 21 listed right now, much higher than normal.

[fernan1234]

Apparently it’s fastest operation is down around 2ms, and slowest at 17ms, per RetroRGB.
Which is still significantly slower than a RetroTink2x + MCable gaming edition which combined are under 1ms.

I'm guessing that it's because the polyphase scaling algorithm is simply slower than integer scaling. I'd then wonder if choosing the integer mode is only adjusting the aspect ratio/panning, but still using the same polyphase algorithm.

I'm also guessing that no reviewer has lag tested the 5X in 2X mode, which again would reveal if the latter actually uses an integer algorithm instead of the polyphase one, so that the 5X in 2X mode would be as fast as the 2X-Pro/Classic/M.

[maxtherabbit]

4ms of added lag in frame-lock mode, which can be applied to any resolution. The fastest digital displays will add 2-4 times that already. As Bob said in his video review, no human is going to be able to notice or react to that, so its a non issue. Are we really going to go there? Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.

If you use triple buffering and hit the 24 millisecond lag addition, sure that could be noticeable for super sensitive gamers, I concede that. The solution? Just use frame-lock mode.

4ms by itself isn't shit, but you've got to keep in mind that lag is cumulative

if you already have a borderline laggy display, and extra 4ms could but you over the edge of missing a input sampling window