What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

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Licorice
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What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Licorice »

Am I missing something or are scoring systems a late innovation in shmups?

Prior to 1994, most sensible score play was through infinite looping.

Games that didn't have infinite looping usually fell into three categories:

1. Checkpoint milking, if they failed to provide resource bonuses,
2. Resource (lives, bombs) hoarding, if they did, and
3. Kill'em'all if they didn't have checkpoints

Counterexamples:
  • Galaxian (1979) - Killing enemies in certain time windows.
  • Time Pilot (1982) - Killing entire formations, collecting "parachuters".
  • Xevious (1982) - Secrets in the form of hidden bombing locations.
  • 1942 (1984) - Ramming enemies (with options or ship).
  • Vulgus (1984) - Hitting multiple enemies at once.
  • Exed Exes (1985) - Dismantling bosses. Picking up items that sacrifice power for score. Picking up items that turn all enemies on screen into point items. Speed killing to spawn more waves. Secrets in the form of unmarked locations to fly over.
  • Star Force (1985) - Secrets in the form of shooting priority, timing, or location based triggers.
  • Darius (1987) - Killing entire formations.
  • Omega Fighter (1989) - Killing enemies at proximity (closer = higher multiplier).
  • Sky Adventure (1989) - Milking destructible short range bullets.
  • Earth Defense Force (1991) - Killing entire formations.
  • Detana Twinbee (1991) - Chaining bells.
  • Gunnail (1992) - Flying at risk (less lives = higher multiplier).
  • Recca (1992) - Chaning medals.
  • Thunder Dragon 2 (1993) - Speed killing to spawn more waves.
  • Macross II (1993) - Speed killing to spawn more waves.
  • Batsugun (1993) - Hovering over certain spots (pigs), bombing certain enemies, medals.
What are some others?
Last edited by Licorice on Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:53 am, edited 6 times in total.
Searchlike
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Re: What's up with scoring pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Searchlike »

Omega Fighter (1989) has a proximity-based scoring system and has been called a proto-Ketsui around here.
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penny
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by penny »

This might be cheating a bit, but caravan games were definietly peak scoring pre-1994 in my opinion. It might not be exactly what you mean, but there were arcade titles like Macross 2 which were all about scoring.

Other games that come to mind are Batsugun and Rayforce (both from '93)
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by DMC »

Alleykat (1986) maybe counts even though it is a shmup/racing hybrid? Pretty complex for its time.

"Bonus types
Time-trial: Bonus, if parcour is done fast.
Endurance: Bonus, if parcour is done slowly.
Demolition: Bonus, if many obstacles are destroyed.
Dodg'em: Bonus, if few obstacles are destroyed.
Survival: Bonus, if many enemies have been killed.
Slalom: Bonus for flying underneath obstacles.
Random: Random bonus."

Had some risk reward too with stage select, and some stairs earned more money than others.
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Alleykat
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by copy-paster »

Macross II, GunNail and Batsugun released on same year as Thunder Dragon 2. Former has tons of score bonus secrets, the latter two has multiplier-based scoring and bonus secrets for Batsugun.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by To Far Away Times »

I can think of mid 90's shmups that are worth playing for score, but yeah, its a lot more challenging to find good shmups to play for score before that.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Jeneki »

There's another common scoring goal in early shmups: risky bonuses.

Stuff like Galaga 88 or Gyruss where if you want to get the most out of bonuses, you have to push your luck and take some risks. The bonuses make those games quite a bit more interesting when you go for them.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Despatche »

Scoring does not need to be any more complicated than "shoot stuff". That by itself is a scoring system. We have a great dearth of "shoot stuff" games in exchange for very complicated games that just give people even more of an excuse to ignore the genre like a plague. Is there anything really wrong with these very complicated games? No, but they should not be replacing anything. Entirely too many people believe that complicated scoring systems are inherently better, which leads to threads like these.

Did you know that Ketsui's chip mechanics were pretty much hammered out at the last minute? It was previously going to be something like Mushihimesama Original. Ketsui also wasn't supposed to have loops. It was literally "rushed" by any reasonable definition of that word, yet it is considered to be an incredibly thoughtful master class in shmup design because... why, actually? There's no real reason for it. Maybe it isn't a master class at all, actually, and CAVE fanboys are just extremely loud.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Jeneki »

Source for Ketsui chip design?
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by DMC »

Despatche wrote:Scoring does not need to be any more complicated than "shoot stuff". That by itself is a scoring system. We have a great dearth of "shoot stuff" games in exchange for very complicated games that just give people even more of an excuse to ignore the genre like a plague. Is there anything really wrong with these very complicated games? No, but they should not be replacing anything. Entirely too many people believe that complicated scoring systems are inherently better, which leads to threads like these.

Did you know that Ketsui's chip mechanics were pretty much hammered out at the last minute? It was previously going to be something like Mushihimesama Original. Ketsui also wasn't supposed to have loops. It was literally "rushed" by any reasonable definition of that word, yet it is considered to be an incredibly thoughtful master class in shmup design because... why, actually? There's no real reason for it. Maybe it isn't a master class at all, actually, and CAVE fanboys are just extremely loud.
Regardless of how good Cave scoring systems really were, they made the most of them by adding amazing visual and sound effects. For example, the feel of locking in and absorbing those large 5x-cubes while hearing that klinging sound effect in Ketsui; catching all the fast-falling 16x blocks in ESPrade; and filling the screen with enemy bullets, switching to Kakusei, and seeing all those bright-looking pink bullets turn to 100x-gold gems in Espgaluda. Esprade, in particular, has a bizarre scoring system (hurt, but do not kill, enemies with a bubble weapon, and then switch to another weapon and kill it before the bubbles wear off). But it is still very rewarding to get those x16. It is a bit like catching rupees in Zelda even when you're maxed out already. And it gives you some nice rewards along the stage.

For comparison, I think Soukyugurentai has a better scoring system but the only visual feedback you get is that a tiny x4 flashes quickly so far off center you typically don't even see it (and when you get the 11th bomb bonus, all it does visually is adding a 1 at the end of your score.
Searchlike wrote:Omega Fighter (1989) has a proximity-based scoring system and has been called a proto-Ketsui around here.
That game really was ahead of its time. Even the special version with the weird 1M boss bonus, which encouraged suiciding. Was there any evidence Yagawa was involved in it? Omega also had some great visual feedback with those rainbow-looking 10x popping up at the centre and then flying right up to your score count.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Licorice »

Updated OP with everyone's additions. I don't have a lot of experience with all of these games, so I might have mis-described or missed out on important aspects of the scoring. Please correct me if so.
Jeneki wrote:There's another common scoring goal in early shmups: risky bonuses.

Stuff like Galaga 88 or Gyruss where if you want to get the most out of bonuses, you have to push your luck and take some risks. The bonuses make those games quite a bit more interesting when you go for them.
Could you please expand here? What does the player have to do to get the bonuses?
penny wrote:Rayforce
That's 1994 AFAIK.
Despatche wrote:Entirely too many people believe that complicated scoring systems are inherently better, which leads to threads like these.
I don't mind open looping or kill'em'all scoring systems. They're fine.

I will admit I find checkpoint milking a bit disappointing though. Could be ok as short, one-off, tricks, but when it's like you have 20 extends to burn and you'll burn them all in the same place and in doing so you'll get another 19 that's boring, IMO.
Despatche wrote:CAVE fanboy
FYI, I'm no huge Cave fan. I kind of stop paying attention to their stuff after DDP DOJ because it all feels really rushed, poorly thought out, and cheaply made to me. I'm probably wrong, but it certainly feels like they discovered a formula for printing money and then milked it for all its worth by churning out minor variants as quickly and cheaply as they possibly could.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Despatche »

Yes, but it's clear that checkpoint milking is a dumb exploit and not really something the developers intended anyone to do. It's also easily fixed by life restrictions. Basically every game with dumb checkpoint milking instantly becomes a lot better when you try to no miss it.

Ray Force is indeed 1994 (despite what MAME will tell you), but honestly, the year thing is arbitrary anyway.

Hm... I have various examples in a very unorganized list. Here you are...

For what it's worth, Recca (1992) has Garegga medals. They're both easier and harder to grab, because although they float around like Star Soldier medals, there can be so many of them that it's easy to miss one unless you are on top of it from the start. I guess this game just ties in with all those caravan titles, but... there were a lot of those! They all technically descend from Star Force anyway.

There are also various games that reward you for grabbing items. A notable example is V V, where you get a "Perfect" bonus for grabbing every medal and not dying (if I remember right) in a stage. Technically that's 1993, but it's a modified version of a 1992 game, so I don't know. Grind Stormer and V V also have medals all over the place that are a lot like Sonic Wings and Psikyo medals.

Dogyuun (1992) has that per-frame bonus if you have an enemy in the tractor beam. That one's busted though, as it still increments against bosses and those don't time out.

Speaking of formations, Darius (1987) almost started the modern sense of it. There are earlier examples, like the Time Pilots.

In addition to formation bonuses, Time Pilot (1982) also has parachuters to rescue for points. If you don't get the formation within a certain timeframe, or don't get the parachuters before they despawn, no bonus for you. Time Pilot '84 also has the formation bonuses, and has a number of secret things hidden in the game area if you poke around in it. You can find some cool game area maps here.

Gaplus (1984) has various secrets in it, though I couldn't tell you which ones actually directly reward points off-hand. Galaxian (1979) and co. all have a bonus for shooting enemies while they're doing various things. A lot of early '80s games had mechanics like that. Galaga '88 has various scoring stuff as well, as mentioned.

Moon Patrol (1982, is too a shmup!) has time bonuses, since you can go faster or slower in a stage. Since it's an Irem game, does that technically make it a precursor to Gallop...? Speaking of which, Gallop (1991) counts for sure.

The early Capcom trilogy has various mechanics. Vulgus (1984) has a score trick involving hitting multiple enemies at once with the special weapon. 1942 (1984) has that bonus for crashing something into a large enemy. Options are usually used for this, but you will actually get the points if you suicide, believe it or not. 1942 also has the series' standard destruction rate, though it's extremely hard to get. Exed Exes (1985) has all sorts of scoring stuff.

The absolute god of old game scoring is by far Star Force (1985). That game was specifically known for it in its time, featuring things like the Cleopatra secret. Like I mentioned earlier, the original Star Soldier was created as a sequel to this game, with even more secrets.

Of course, Xevious (1982) more or less started this concept of secrets hiding around in gameplay with its Sol towers. Like many games made in the years after Xevious, Star Force was specifically trying to challenge or outdo this game. It was a very big deal for quite a few years.

Sorry for the absolute state of this list, kinda just typed it up from off-hand thinking.
Jeneki wrote:Source for Ketsui chip design?
It was mentioned in a CAVE interview. Remember the "Mr. Stoic" Ketsui hack? It was inspired by and named for the bit in this interview. From here:

Code: Select all

At the beginning we were thinking to make a very orthodox shooting game. We were going to have no scoring system at all, focusing purely on bullet dodging and destruction, a “plain ramen”, or “Mr. Stoic” style STG. However, during playtesting a week before the location test, another programmer said, “This isn’t us. This just isn’t us. A ramen without an easy to understand scoring system… that isn’t Cave!” …tantrums were thrown and that was the end of that idea. So we frantically asked the designers to “Make us some box-like things that will match the world of the game.” That extremely vague instruction was the origin of that item, which later became Cave’s foremost moe character, the multiplier chip. (Programmer)
A week before loctest, folks! They had an entire "plain ramen" game put together just like that.

Right below that, Mr. Programmer tells us that Espgaluda almost became like that too:

Code: Select all

Our sales department was very adamant about not making another game like Ketsui, and instead told us to do a character themed shooting this time, and that game was Espgaluda. As the project progressed we didn’t have any special scoring system in place, but we then realized well into development that we were in danger of making a “Mr. Stoic” character shooting game. The Kakusei system was the end result of us mustering our strength and exploring some new ideas. (Programmer)
Mind, the Kakusei system is very cool, though Espgaluda is sort of a Progear derivative. Noone believes me when I say that for some reason, even though very few games have that "trade one resource for another" mechanic.

Since Mushi Original did eventually happen, it's clear this is something they really wanted to do. They should have done it more often:

Code: Select all

Alright, THIS time we are going to make a “Mr. Stoic” shooting game! And it will have that 90s ultra hardcore manly style! … such was the vigor we had as we planned this game. Even at the initial planning stage we knew we wanted the ship to be a hardcore mecha fighting jet! The enemies too would use actual tanks and helicopters as motifs! It would be a “real military style world war shooting” …you’d smell the gunpowder wafting from your screen! However, one day, due to various circumstances, that “hardcore mecha fighting jet” suddenly became an “itte kima~su!” style girl, those real military mechas became buggish bugs, and the game became a “heartwarming fantasy style bug shooting game”… with the smell of horned beetles wafting from the screen. I can’t deny the possibility that we coded the dense danmaku Ultra mode unconsciously as a response to these changes. (Programmer)
Where's my Mr. Stoic character shooting game...
Last edited by Despatche on Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by BIL »

Despatche wrote:Moon Patrol (1982, is too a shmup!) has time bonuses, since you can go faster or slower in a stage. Since it's an Irem game, does that technically make it a precursor to Gallop...? Speaking of which, Gallop (1991) counts for sure.
Oh, good catch. The hori/vert shooting reminding me of Kaitei Daisensou aside, I always associate Moon Patrol with fellow rock avoider Wonder Boy.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Despatche »

customary genre: Rock Avoidance Game

I totally forgot Fantasy Zone, by the way. Imagine forgeting Fantasy Zone, of all things. Though I guess that counts as resource hoarding. Still, it's very different from the usual idea of that, and resource hoarding wasn't really this huge thing then.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Licorice »

Updated again.

Didn't include Gaplus because I couldn't find any info on how the scoring works to write a short summary.

I might include Moon Patrol and Gallop, but the scoring here is kind of "racing" not shmup so omitting for now. Also Moon Patrol is a run'n'gun as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Lethe »

Despatche wrote:Mind, the Kakusei system is very cool, though Espgaluda is sort of a Progear derivative. Noone believes me when I say that for some reason, even though very few games have that "trade one resource for another" mechanic.
I think it's fair to say that every Cave game from Ketsui onwards cannibalizes some elements from Progear and/or Guwange, just representing them in a more straightforward way.

Bosconian is the earliest example I know of for formation bonuses, from 1981. I know the much later X68k port has them give a larger bonus if you kill the leader ship last, but I can't remember if that was in the original version or not. There are some early games with proximity scoring mentioned in this thread that I was coincidentally reading.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Despatche »

The best source I know of for Gaplus is this site. It's a Japanese page, but a lot of it is tables and pictures anyway. Most of the secret items and powerups power up your ship or give you extends, but hey.

Speaking of which, Galaga and Gaplus have the challenging stages, a concept still fairly unique to Namco games even today. Burning Force also has something like challenging stages, and I believe it also has medals you can grab.

I totally forgot Bosconian has formation bonuses too. Go figure.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by BrianC »

BIL wrote:
Despatche wrote:Moon Patrol (1982, is too a shmup!) has time bonuses, since you can go faster or slower in a stage. Since it's an Irem game, does that technically make it a precursor to Gallop...? Speaking of which, Gallop (1991) counts for sure.
Oh, good catch. The hori/vert shooting reminding me of Kaitei Daisensou aside, I always associate Moon Patrol with fellow rock avoider Wonder Boy.
It also reminds me a bit of the rock jumping sections of Jungle Hunt.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by trap15 »

DMC wrote:Was there any evidence Yagawa was involved in it?
No, it was before Yagawa's Laser Fight even, so there was never any possibility he could've been associated. Omega Fighter was designed by Fukio Mitsuji, the designer of Bubble Bobble.
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Re: What's up with scoring in pre-1994 shmups?

Post by Sumez »

Omega Fighter was the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread's title. Glad to see it in the first response.
It's one of the few early shooters that I feel truly captures that excessive dying to greedy risks, enforcing constant do-overs, that at least to me would be come a lot more common with newer games of the genre.
trap15 wrote:Omega Fighter was designed by Fukio Mitsuji, the designer of Bubble Bobble.
This is a rumor very commonly passed around.
Is there any hard evidence?
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