Identify Sapphire Fakes?

DHG Hunter · Post by **DHG Hunter** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:01 pm

Lately there seems to be a large number of "New & factory-shrinked" Sapphires for the PC-Engine showing up on eBay. My gut reaction is that they are fake since a game that has been super-rare for so long wouldn't suddenly show up in abundance and drive prices down so much, but then again they did find a huge stick of Circus Lido (PC-Engine) a few years ago that drove that game down in price quite a bit.

Is there any way of telling whether or not these new copies are fakes? I've done a few searches through the forum and folks seem to claim there is a way of checking their authenticity. Is there something on the box I can look out for?

Thanks!

Later.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoted from the "Video Game Imports" website (the one webshop recognizing the counterfeit copy problem and letting the word out...

BEWARE OF COUNTERFEIT COPIES OF THIS GAME!!!!

Yes, unfortunately it's true; there are counterfeit copies of the very rare and expensive shooter GINGA FUKEI DENSETSU SAPPHIRE. We received 2pcs of the game today, 19-08-02, as a part-exchange from a regular customer (who I am sure does not know that they are not original). Upon opening the box, something just didn't look quite right. However, they were fully factory sealed with the little tear off strip, they had the spine card, which even had the little slant on the back as with all PC Engine spines. We haven't opened them but they appear to even have a registration card inside. Luckily, we had a used copy of the game in stock and could make a comparison, and it was only then that we could see that it was obviously a counterfeit game, albeit done extremely professionally! Points to look for include:

The orange colour (see the Arcade CD logos at the front, side and back) is a brighter shade in the counterfeit version. The original is slightly darker and is extremely lightly 'dotted' with with very tiny white dots. They are barely visible to the eye, but they are there. Looks like the counterfeiters were unable to replicate this.

The artwork on the front, of the girl, appears very slightly out of focus.

The most noticeable part is on the back cover, where there are pictures of the 2 Arcade cards. The counterfeit version is much more fuzzy looking, and the picture of the planet is unclear. With the picture of the the Arcade Card Duo, on the original version, you can see a very thin white outline around the part of the card with the artwork on it. On the counterfeit version, there is no white outline.

I would recomment everybody considering buying a new or even used copy of this game, to be extremely careful. Even if you are buying from people or business held in high esteem, they may be unwittingly selling you a counterfeit copy.

DHG Hunter · Post by **DHG Hunter** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:24 pm

Thanks for the info! I just saw this post too:

http://www.pcenginefx.com/phpBB/viewtop ... t=sapphire

... Some things just look too good to be true, and unfortunately it looks like they are a copy. =/ I don't care how good of a bootleg it is. If it isn't the original, what's the point in collecting it? Oh well...

Thanks!

Later.

Koa Zo · Post by **Koa Zo** » Fri May 19, 2006 11:33 pm

DHG Hunter wrote:...
If it isn't the original, what's the point in collecting it? Oh well...

The point is: it is a really impressive game and the "original" copies are too expensive, so the bootlegs give folks like myself the full experience of paging through the manual, and enjoying the packaging while also being able to play the crap out of it without worrying about depleting the value of a "super rare".

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:03 am

it is a really impressive game and the "original" copies are too expensive,

My exact thoughts on this year's Porche. So I stole one. I can now fully enjoy it without having to worry about foolish things like spending money.

jp · Post by jp » Sat May 20, 2006 12:25 am

Whoever flooded the market with these fakes really needs to be shot.

If you want to steal it just download the ISO or whatever. No reason to fuck with people who want to buy it legit.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:46 am

@DHG Hunter

Welcome! The SHMUPS Forum has a nice search-function, by the way

Counterfeit Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire Warning

In that thread there is a link to an Italian site comparing original & fake.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:48 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
it is a really impressive game and the "original" copies are too expensive,
My exact thoughts on this year's Porche. So I stole one. I can now fully enjoy it without having to worry about foolish things like spending money.

absolute crap

the game is on a DEAD CONSOLE, the game is OUT OF PRINT

why the hell should terms like "theft" be used when the money goes to FAT GREEDY SPECULATORS ON EBAY and not to the company THAT MADE IT!!

there is a victim when theft occurs, PCE CD roms werent copyable while the company was profiting from the game..

if some nerd that spent a day raiding akihabara or denden town loses out on a $100 profit for a game , thats not a victim, thats funny.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:03 am

the game is on a DEAD CONSOLE, the game is OUT OF PRINT

Sorry, but this does nothing but make me laugh. Print run and the vitality of the console mean dick. Someone always owns the copyright. Hudson in this case (who is alive and well).

FAT GREEDY SPECULATORS ON EBAY and not to the company THAT MADE IT!!

To each their own. I own a Sapphire. Does that make me a fat, greedy speculator? You know there are such things as (gasp) collectors that pay outrages fees for games, and generally tend to sell them for whatever they can get for them.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:11 am

pixelcorps wrote:the game is on a DEAD CONSOLE, the game is OUT OF PRINT

Wow, I never saw it that way. What a fool I was for buying original out of print games at high prices. Thanks for enlightening me.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat May 20, 2006 3:32 am

i'm sure the guy who sold it to you thanks you back.

i'm all about buying retail copies of modern games, but if no money is going back to the people that made it, there's no point.

original or copy, the money is not going anywhere near hudsonsoft so don't try and justify a purchase with the word "theft" because nobody is taking cash from hudson.

it's not support, it's rabid selfish hoarding, because its not about the content, it boils down to gollum-like posession.

so, as I already know.. hudson still owns the rights.. so. with that in mind, here's a question.

will anyone thats bought one of these high priced CD's buy it if you could get it as part of the wii online content? ohh no,because you already have it, because it doesn't have the packaging or the spine card and not the "real thing" as it's not on your PC engine..

or would you? there's your chance to show support, so hypothetically would you buy it again??

would you buy another copy if those guys that bought the gitarooman license repressed it legitimately??

no, of course not, because of the reasons above, because it's not the ORIGINAL!!! *precioussss!!!* - you already own it!! , so YOU people that have bought it from ebay are ALSO doing hudson a disservice.

In my spare time,I run a record label, I make records occasionally, eventually i'll sell the stock and they'll sell out - and they'll get sold second hand.. i also see mp3's of them online, but I don't scream "theft!" - because i sold my stock, and made my estimated profits, and repressing would only garner a few more sales, and would cost more than the initial run, so I estimated the sales and produced accordingly.

By day I make videogames.. I get paid a salary as the company makes money from the publisher from the games we make, in the exact same way, sales depts. calculate the amount of units that will sell so that excess stock doesnt get dumped, or in many cases burnt..

there's only so many sales you can make, and its pointless overproducing in the hope that excess stock will sell.

collect what you like, pay what you want, but don't cast self righteous indingation on people that do buy these copied products, ESPECIALLY on games this old that havent seen a reissue on another system,, and doubly so if you adopt the stance that a "devalued" repress or legitimate digital content down load is lesser than the trinket you currently possess, becaus THAT is even more disrespectful to the original producer of a creative work.

see what I mean?

mass duplication of CD's in the far east is usually done by gangsters and also pays for prostitution and drugs, but those same individuals who do this would be far more concerned with pressing 60,000 J-lo albums than a limited run (which this obviously is, if you want to cll that a "flood") of a obscure , retro computer game.

your average triad boss wouldnt be interested in such a thing, this job has been produced by people that KNOW about the collector scene and KNOW about games.. in fact, these people would have taken into consideration HOW MANY they would sell in the same sales dept. fashion i've already mentioned! what's the point on the bootleggers themselves making what would essentially be caosters if they couldnt sell them all?

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sat May 20, 2006 3:59 am

Don't Japanese games have "No resale" printed on the box? You guys are committing the crime of buying used games!

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat May 20, 2006 4:05 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Don't Japanese games have "No resale" printed on the box? You guys are committing the crime of buying used games!

this is also true. but this didn't come into effect back in the days of the PCE.

I retorted in exactly the same manner about used PCB's and the rigteousness that comes from the owners of originals when people see/buy bootlegs of out of print PCB's... the only person that benefits is the collector, not the developer, and in my eyes that's a little bit weird, no?

llaoyllakcuf · Post by **llaoyllakcuf** » Sat May 20, 2006 4:42 am

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/sapphirecomp.html

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat May 20, 2006 7:09 am

pixelcorps wrote:i'm sure the guy who sold it to you thanks you back.

i'm all about buying retail copies of modern games, but if no money is going back to the people that made it, there's no point.

original or copy, the money is not going anywhere near hudsonsoft so don't try and justify a purchase with the word "theft" because nobody is taking cash from hudson.

it's not support, it's rabid selfish hoarding, because its not about the content, it boils down to gollum-like posession.

so, as I already know.. hudson still owns the rights.. so. with that in mind, here's a question.

will anyone thats bought one of these high priced CD's buy it if you could get it as part of the wii online content? ohh no,because you already have it, because it doesn't have the packaging or the spine card and not the "real thing" as it's not on your PC engine..

or would you? there's your chance to show support, so hypothetically would you buy it again??

would you buy another copy if those guys that bought the gitarooman license repressed it legitimately??

no, of course not, because of the reasons above, because it's not the ORIGINAL!!! *precioussss!!!* - you already own it!! , so YOU people that have bought it from ebay are ALSO doing hudson a disservice.

In my spare time,I run a record label, I make records occasionally, eventually i'll sell the stock and they'll sell out - and they'll get sold second hand.. i also see mp3's of them online, but I don't scream "theft!" - because i sold my stock, and made my estimated profits, and repressing would only garner a few more sales, and would cost more than the initial run, so I estimated the sales and produced accordingly.

By day I make videogames.. I get paid a salary as the company makes money from the publisher from the games we make, in the exact same way, sales depts. calculate the amount of units that will sell so that excess stock doesnt get dumped, or in many cases burnt..

there's only so many sales you can make, and its pointless overproducing in the hope that excess stock will sell.

collect what you like, pay what you want, but don't cast self righteous indingation on people that do buy these copied products, ESPECIALLY on games this old that havent seen a reissue on another system,, and doubly so if you adopt the stance that a "devalued" repress or legitimate digital content down load is lesser than the trinket you currently possess, becaus THAT is even more disrespectful to the original producer of a creative work.

see what I mean?

mass duplication of CD's in the far east is usually done by gangsters and also pays for prostitution and drugs, but those same individuals who do this would be far more concerned with pressing 60,000 J-lo albums than a limited run (which this obviously is, if you want to cll that a "flood") of a obscure , retro computer game.

your average triad boss wouldnt be interested in such a thing, this job has been produced by people that KNOW about the collector scene and KNOW about games.. in fact, these people would have taken into consideration HOW MANY they would sell in the same sales dept. fashion i've already mentioned! what's the point on the bootleggers themselves making what would essentially be caosters if they couldnt sell them all?

So you are saying that buying games on the secondary market so they can be played it on the original hardware is bad because that way one won't buy the same game again when (if) it gets re-released for some sort of "virtual console"? That's insane. I'd like to add that most people here aren't hoarding games. They buy them to play them.

And you don't consider it criminal to make counterfeit copies of a rare out of print game in order to trick collectors into paying hundreds of dollars for one, and then after everyone realizes they are fakes sell the leftover copies at $60 a pop, still making a handsome profit (all this using other peoples' intellectual property)? That's also insane. Just because worse crimes take place simultaneously it doesn't make this lawful.

umi · Post by **umi** » Sat May 20, 2006 7:24 am

Lol @ this argument again. A game like Sapphire so falls under the "okay to pirate" category. If collectors want to own one, good for them... it's all money handed between mutual citizens. The economic balance stays the same :P Or more likely, pirate companies get richer, since people obviously buy the fakes.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat May 20, 2006 7:54 am

Ceph wrote:
So you are saying that buying games on the secondary market so they can be played it on the original hardware is bad because that way one won't buy the same game again when (if) it gets re-released for some sort of "virtual console"? That's insane. I'd like to add that most people here aren't hoarding games. They buy them to play them.

so why not buy the bootleg? as I say, hudson aren't making cash from either, and that one costs less, and give or take a few cosmetic differences, they are identical.

as for the virtual console, I was being hypothetical.

I could have said released on a PS2 compilation.

so, that said whould you buy it again, thus supporting the developers?

it's a simple yes or no.

Ceph wrote: And you don't consider it criminal to make counterfeit copies of a rare out of print game in order to trick collectors into paying hundreds of dollars for one, and then after everyone realizes they are fakes sell the leftover copies at $60 a pop, still making a handsome profit (all this using other peoples' intellectual property)? That's also insane. Just because worse crimes take place simultaneously it doesn't make this lawful.

do you mean "criminal" as in 'unfair' or "illegal" as in 'a crime' ?

the only people that get annoyed are the obsessives that want a mint original, I guess the people who actually play it wouldnt care.

so, whats worse, the bootleggers making some cash from an extinct game, not even manufactured for overseas play, nor export, or an online reseller exploiting a collector market to pay vastly overinflated prices?

going back to what you said, if they paid to play a game, then they are getting exactly that, a game to play. either way.. well, one way cheaper than the other, actually.

If sapphire was such a massive earner for hudson, like, say bomberman, surely it would have reappeared by now.

either way, you get your game, hudson make no cash, you get your game, and you can play it.

the only victim is the collector that intends on keeping it shrinkwrapped and on his shelf, waiting for a good reselling opportunity, in which case, it's rather amusing, because they are only seeing it as a trinket and not a game to be played.

if hudson were losing money, i'd say it was wrong, but, they're not, they probably don't care either, otherwise they would have gone after the perpetrators like SNK and nintendo do on a regular basis.

right now, the NO RESALE markers were placed on japanese games for a reason, they were trying to keep their income from retail sales as opposed to losing it from the resale of used games.

so with your legal eye on the flaunting of IP, and your gamers' eye on the support of a company that made the game in the first place, maybe you can answer my question regarding wether you'd actually show hudson some support, should the game ever be seen again on a compilation or virtual console, or would you not, because you already own it .

Because if you don't, hudson lose, because they lost a sale. and isn't showing support for the developers of software important? and isnt that more, in your words "criminal" ? , because in terms of their sales reports, you bought neither of them, the one you own was sold to some guy in japan in 199x.

DC906270 · Post by **DC906270** » Sat May 20, 2006 8:04 am

sapphire is one of those "rare" games that is not too difficult to get hold of, and once youve got it be prepared to make loss on the resale...

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat May 20, 2006 8:04 am

umi wrote:Lol @ this argument again. A game like Sapphire so falls under the "okay to pirate" category. If collectors want to own one, good for them... it's all money handed between mutual citizens. The economic balance stays the same Or more likely, pirate companies get richer, since people obviously buy the fakes.

and probably enjoy them as much as the people that bought the original!

and maybe thats why some people get annoyed, because the collector feels more righteous with his original than the poor guy having just as much fun, with his bootleg. because i'm sure as hell that the CEO of hudson isnt as anywhere near annoyed as some of you guys are over this.

you really honestly think an organised crime ring got together and decided spending money on a glass master to produce a few hundred pc engine games instead of a few hundred thousand DVD's of king kong, or britney's latest LP?

it actually costs more to produce less CD's commercially you know.

it takes a bit of knowledge to know sapphire, these guys arent the mafia, theyre opportunist gamers, and it's hardly a market to make millions.

seriously, how many bootlegs do you think got made?

noone is getting hurt , or losing money, except some easily upset collectors.

umi · Post by **umi** » Sat May 20, 2006 9:15 am

I am a collector :P But opposing sides can't force eachother's mentality on eachother. I will say that it's kinda amusing when the anti-collector argument starts sounding like jealous bitching though.

Parting thought: I can spend my money on video games if I want, nomatter how fucking old or expensive. Oh, and I can play my games as much or as little as I like. Others can do the same with their... I dunno... Cars? Women? And you can play with *them* as much as you want, nomatter how old or expensive.

jp · Post by jp » Sat May 20, 2006 3:32 pm

Why do I have this mental image of pixelcorps posting all this at a desk with a stack of CD-ROMs next to the monitor...

Post by **Dave_K.** » Sat May 20, 2006 3:57 pm

pixelcorps wrote: noone is getting hurt , or losing money, except some easily upset collectors.

I'll argue that everyone is a "collector", in the sense that nobody buys a game expecting to just toss it in the garbage when they are done playing with it or get bored. They assign some value to it, so if they ever do decide to sell or trade, they can get something back on their initial cost. If cheaper (bootleg or not) copies enter the market, the value of the game overall goes down. That hurts everyone who own the game currently. Sure you can assign some emotional context with that, labeling those people as bitchy collectors, but its just simple math. Even if there weren't many bootlegs released, it could effect the market for that game significantly if the value is overrated to begin with, and since nobody knows if more bootlegs are coming in the future if its easy to do so.

In short, bootlegs hurt the overall market, but if you aren't in the market to begin with, then those people don't see the problem buying one. A very selfish view, but understandable given most people are selfish.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:12 am

strange how nobody answered the question about buying a retail copy should it ever get re-pressed or released.

the entire gitarooman repress situation is a grim reflection of this.

people went up in arms that their precious gitarooman was being repressed,with the exact same art and packaging and driving the collector value down, and all the people are cring like babies because they couldnt sell a $50 game for x3 the price anymore,and their precious little trinket theyve kept dust free on their shelf is suddenly available for the proletariat to buy again, bringing their copy back down to the price they should have bought it for in the first place before someone told them it was T3h R@r3?

boo fucking hoo - can't the people who MADE the game make a bit more cash?

seriously, take a look at that situation - greedy consumers getting pissed off simply because the people that made the game could get some more retail sales!!

now is that not just the same situation i've been mentioning over the last few posts? - blind greed on behalf of the collector?

I never said you shouldnt buy it, you can buy it for whatever price you like!

I stated the fact that nobody is losing out either party gets a game to play, one part gets upset because it looks different.

and some people call it "theft", and some people say the people producing them should be shot.

and that's where my problem lies. And that's why I retorted.

and dave, how does the devaluation of a game you bought, own and enjoy 'hurt' the consumer?

if they purchased a game at $200 , isnt it still worth that to them? if the game is that good, why sell it again?

and if they merely want to play the game why not buy the bootleg, because at least they dont lose out on resale value?

This isnt about games playing, this is obsessive, selfish, unreasonable greed.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:25 am

jp wrote:Why do I have this mental image of pixelcorps posting all this at a desk with a stack of CD-ROMs next to the monitor...

*turns webcam off*

umi · Post by **umi** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:24 am

You wouldn't want the value of the land your house is on suddenly plummeting overnight would you? Duh :P Same thing applies (although you stand to lose a lot less). If the game is fairly recent, no one should be up in arms about a reprint (though the fact that it is a re-print or at least printed at a different stage should be determinable on the packaging), as the company deserves to still make money. The japs have the right idea... re-releasing as sata-kore, "ps the best", etc. Westerners have their equivalents too. There's not much (well, any) risk of this ultimately happening with super-old games or games on defunct systems. Value might fall a bit with a re-release or retro package on a newer system (like sengoku blade, mizubaku daibouken, etc recently), but the original will still always be more valuable, coveted, and... well, original.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:53 am

pixelcorps wrote:
the game is on a DEAD CONSOLE, the game is OUT OF PRINT

why the hell should terms like "theft" be used when the money goes to FAT GREEDY SPECULATORS ON EBAY and not to the company THAT MADE IT!!

there is a victim when theft occurs, PCE CD roms werent copyable while the company was profiting from the game..

if some nerd that spent a day raiding akihabara or denden town loses out on a $100 profit for a game , thats not a victim, thats funny.

what a load of shite.. you think someone printed up these copies to be kind?
you think they did it just so every casual gamer could get to play this lost gem?
hardly.. its buisness, and this peticular buisness supports pirateing, sure maybe in this peticular case its just the collectors taking the blow (why you hate them so much i have no idea), but dont think it stops there, whoever made this proboably printed up shitloads of copies of other games as well, i doubt they were all out of print collectibles

its just in this case it was a game that fetched $500 on ebay and they saw their chance to scam a good few people before it was caught on as a scam...

i personally dont give a shit but i cant see how someone can be so naive and claim "it doesnt hurt anyone"!?

DC906270 · Post by **DC906270** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:56 am

i am already crying about how much i paid for Sapphire a while back

you can now get it on the bay for around half the price i paid..probably due to the avaiability of cheap bootlegs..

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:13 am

DC906270 wrote:i am already crying about how much i paid for Sapphire a while back you can now get it on the bay for around half the price i paid..probably due to the avaiability of cheap bootlegs..

Don't be too sad, the original is still one of the rarest and most desirable games out there and a crown jewel of anyone's collection. And a bootleg is worth NOTHING. In the long run as more and more people learn to distinguish the fakes, prices will probably go up again.

@sven666 : Exactly. And by paying money for bootlegs you support piracy.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:39 am

Yeah, the point is, that somebody is trying to rip people off by making and selling those fakes. Afterall, they're always claimed to be original.

If somebody just doesn't have the cash to buy Sapphire, but really really wants to play it, I don't really have a problem with them burning the ISO.

The problem starts, when people start pirating for profit.

jp · Post by jp » Sun May 21, 2006 1:28 pm

I really need to buy another copy of Sapphire... wish I hadn't sold mine on Ebay (and sadly, at the same time those damnable bootlegs started popping up).

Though I guess in theory I should be Zenki first... since I have a PC-FX and currently do not have a PC-Engine Duo RX.