The touchy subject of emulation

[Edge]

Well if you look at the highscore threads a lot of people are also playing on Mame there. And people state which version they play, because some think the original PCB and Mame are pretty different. So I think it is not entirely useless stated there.

I agree that those "ZOMG! U r a n00b, man, pla3yn on MegaDrive?!?! TEH internet romz pw3ns!!!!!111!!1!!!!1!!!!" are obviously rather stupid. But "luckily" I don't see them around these forums. Or i haven t seen them yet, at least.

I think the general opinion about emulators shouldn't be based on these retards.

[gameoverDude]

Yeah, also if people would just shut up about boasting the use of emulation and talk about the games themselves, then there wouldn't be any trouble. Esp. annoying are those who start off by stating that they're playing the ROM. Nobody cares that you're emulating a game so nobody wants to know you're playing the ROM. You're not doing anything special; anybody could hook up on any number of emulation and torrent sites to download the same stuff. It's one of the most utterly useless statements ever.

QFT. I could not give a damn less if someone is playing the ROM or the actual version. If you're playing ESPRade, all that's relevant is that you play the game. Whether you MAME it or not means jack.

[iatneH]

ESP RaDe is harder in MAME due to running a tiny bit faster than the PCB and doesn't slow down as much. There is also no sprite flicker in MAME. These differences ought to be big enough for the experience to be very dissimilar between the two. In fact, a lot of emulated Cave games (and others) are notably different from the PCB.

Winning in ESP RaDe PCB -> respect. But winning in ESP RaDe MAME -> different kind of respect

[Dave_K.]

ESP RaDe is harder in MAME due to running a tiny bit faster than the PCB and doesn't slow down as much. There is also no sprite flicker in MAME. These differences ought to be big enough for the experience to be very dissimilar between the two. In fact, a lot of emulated Cave games (and others) are notably different from the PCB.

There is more slowdown in the DDP PCB than ESPRade PCB when compared to Mame (I have both PCB).

Winning in ESP RaDe PCB -> respect. But winning in ESP RaDe MAME -> different kind of respect

Nah, just practice on Mame, and record your score on PCB. I have yet to see any western'er break 200M in DDP on PCB much less Mame, so no respect given to either at this point.

[Herr Schatten]

Or the mentality "Why did you buy this game if you could had just downloaded from the internet?"

I get the same reaction from some people when buying CDs. "Why do you buy the stuff, you could download it for free." Well, there are two reasons. I do it to support the artists and I want the whole package with artwork and lyrics, not some tinny-sounding mp3 on my HD.

I've just thrown out all the burned CD-Rs I had. Half of them I never listened to anyway, the other half I'm replacing bit by bit with the real ones.

[jpolz]

So which is more "acceptable":

Playing the ROM of a game through MAME or some other emulator

or

owning/playing the PCB in a country where it is not legal to do so?

[99pence]

So which is more "acceptable":

Playing the ROM of a game through MAME or some other emulator

or

owning/playing the PCB in a country where it is not legal to do so?

Thats not what goes down these days as some sort of justification of downloading free roms is it?


LMFAO to the full extend of the jam.

[jpolz]

So which is more "acceptable":

Playing the ROM of a game through MAME or some other emulator

or

owning/playing the PCB in a country where it is not legal to do so?

Thats not what goes down these days as some sort of justification of downloading free roms is it?

LMFAO to the full extend of the jam.

No, I'm not saying it's justification, just that owning the actual PCB in some cases isn't any more "legal" than downloading it for free despite what some folks will tell you.

[99pence]

It's nonsence all that stuff. Do you think if a Japanese guy moves to a western country they will take all his books, music and games off him because of copyright infringement. Not a chance.

In Germany and Oz aren't mod chips legal because its illegal to stop people playing imports. Or something like that.


If anyones really bothered just go and play your imported games down your local Japanese embassy.

[jpolz]

It's nonsence all that stuff. Do you think if a Japanese guy moves to a western country they will take all his books, music and games off him because of copyright infringement. Not a chance.

In Germany and Oz aren't mod chips legal because its illegal to stop people playing imports. Or something like that.


If anyones really bothered just go and play your imported games down your local Japanese embassy.

It's not nonsense, it's the way the law reads, they don't choose to enforce it. Doesn't make it any less illegal.

[dave4shmups]

Here's my final $1.50 on the subject.

I think it's perfectly fine to use Emualtion to try out games. I can't go over to Blockbuster and rent an Atari 7800 game, or any games older then PS2 games, for that matter. I do have a problem with using emulation, for cheap old-school consoles-unless someone's on welfare or food stamps, they can afford to get at least an N64 and a few games.

I do not, however, view emulation the same way I would view downloading songs for free. Why? Because, for a fee, you can pretty much download ANY song that's ever been released. The same cannot be said of arcade games, many of which have never even gotten home ports. And if companies like SNK, which is sitting on a huge back catalog of games, can't be bothered to at LEAST contact XBLA about making their games legally available for download, then I have little sympathy if they complain about people playing their games via emulation.

Yes, arcade games, like other video games, are someone else's intellectual property. But arcades are sparse at best over here, and not everyone has the cash to shell out for a cab or supergun to enjoy unreleased games.

And, IMO, the analogy with regards to a car you can't afford falls flat for two reasons: you can go to car dealerships and legally test drive a car, without any obligation to buy it, and, secondly, downloading an arcade game does not prevent anyone else from playing it.

[raiden]

Because, for a fee, you can pretty much download ANY song that's ever been released

your music taste must be sitting comfortably in the midst of the mainstream. I have a long list of bands I´m looking for, most commercial music distributors don´t even know 10% of them. But the fun part is, illegal downloads don´t work significantly better. Best results I got was ebay and amazon. But when you´re looking for a really obscure album, be prepared to wait for years.

[dave4shmups]

Because, for a fee, you can pretty much download ANY song that's ever been released

your music taste must be sitting comfortably in the midst of the mainstream. I have a long list of bands I´m looking for, most commercial music distributors don´t even know 10% of them. But the fun part is, illegal downloads don´t work significantly better. Best results I got was ebay and amazon. But when you´re looking for a really obscure album, be prepared to wait for years.

OK, I stand corrected. But, still, there's no good reason why the gaming industry couldn't do something like this, with unreleaed games. XBLA is a good start; neither Arcade Contra nor Arcade Super Contra have ever been released by Konami. Hopefully we'll see more of this type of thing.

And speaking of unreleased games, I would have nothing against downloading something like Properller Arena that was never finished. I understand that the timing was bad with 9/11, but take for example, movies that were supposed to come out that fall-they took the Twin Towers out. There's no good reason why Sega couldn't have done the same thing, and then released the game.

[icycalm]

I would not be so sure about the legal issue.

Most Japanese games say "FOR JAPAN ONLY". But what the hell is that supposed to mean? If I buy it it's mine and I can take it anywhere I want: Europe, America, the Congo. And I bet anything you want there is nothing anyone can do to stop me.

And of course if I buy a PCB I can also take it with me and use it wherever I want to. I doubt there's a single country outside Japan where that would be illegal.

The Japanese are silly like that. They think that just because they write something on the packaging, it becomes instant law.

[FRO]

Because, for a fee, you can pretty much download ANY song that's ever been released

your music taste must be sitting comfortably in the midst of the mainstream. I have a long list of bands I´m looking for, most commercial music distributors don´t even know 10% of them. But the fun part is, illegal downloads don´t work significantly better. Best results I got was ebay and amazon. But when you´re looking for a really obscure album, be prepared to wait for years.

I'm in the same boat. I collect a lot of 80's & 90's Christian hard rock / heavy metal & a lot of the stuff that didn't hit the mainstream (read: anything that wasn't Stryper) is getting harder to find. For example, the band Bloodgood put out all their albums on CD during the 80's - in limited quantities. Used copies are going for $40 or more most of the time. Until the band Saint re-released their last album of the 80's (Too Late For Living) on CD a few years ago, used original copies of the album had been known to go for $200+ on auction. In any event, even the quasi-legal music download services like the Russian sites don't have that stuff. So, either you find an illegal way to download it (pick your poison) or as mentioned, wait years before a CD copy comes in your path. I waited over 10 years to find an original copy of Sacrament's Testimony of Apocalypse album (brutal early 90's thrash) & finally found one at a used CD story for $6.99. And this was a year after it had been remastered/re-released on CD w/ their "Presumed Dead" demo tacked on at the end.

[dave4shmups]

Because, for a fee, you can pretty much download ANY song that's ever been released

your music taste must be sitting comfortably in the midst of the mainstream. I have a long list of bands I´m looking for, most commercial music distributors don´t even know 10% of them. But the fun part is, illegal downloads don´t work significantly better. Best results I got was ebay and amazon. But when you´re looking for a really obscure album, be prepared to wait for years.

I'm in the same boat. I collect a lot of 80's & 90's Christian hard rock / heavy metal & a lot of the stuff that didn't hit the mainstream (read: anything that wasn't Stryper) is getting harder to find. For example, the band Bloodgood put out all their albums on CD during the 80's - in limited quantities. Used copies are going for $40 or more most of the time. Until the band Saint re-released their last album of the 80's (Too Late For Living) on CD a few years ago, used original copies of the album had been known to go for $200+ on auction. In any event, even the quasi-legal music download services like the Russian sites don't have that stuff. So, either you find an illegal way to download it (pick your poison) or as mentioned, wait years before a CD copy comes in your path. I waited over 10 years to find an original copy of Sacrament's Testimony of Apocalypse album (brutal early 90's thrash) & finally found one at a used CD story for $6.99. And this was a year after it had been remastered/re-released on CD w/ their "Presumed Dead" demo tacked on at the end.

OT, I love Stryper's song "In God We Trust". Have you ever listened to a band called Angelica, FRO? They're pretty good! I like your taste in music, too!

[Dave_K.]

No, I'm not saying it's justification, just that owning the actual PCB in some cases isn't any more "legal" than downloading it for free despite what some folks will tell you.

Playing a PCB from a different region may infringe on international copyright law, but is typically only enforceable if that game has a localized version which costs more, resulting in a revenue loss to the company with the copyright.

So if you are trying to weight what is more "illegal", then stealing roms (from any region) definately is, but I don't think anyone on this board is going to label you a thief.

[iatneH]

How can something (in this hobby) thats free be better than something you buy.

I wonder why I didn't see this post earlier.

Yeah, touchy indeed. Thanks a lot FatCobra.

[zaphod]

Honestly for aracade games the "only liscensed for use in" blah blah blah bit is jsut standard CYA stuff, put there to absolve said company of all responsibility for things that happen if the game gets imported.

There are notable exceptions, though, like music games, where it is truly illegal because it violates the terms under which they lescensed the music in the first place.

Even in the case of those music games, the company usually looks the other way, but officially they can't support them and must put that message on.

It's movies that the region stuff is there to price gouge those who can pay with.

[FRO]

OT, I love Stryper's song "In God We Trust". Have you ever listened to a band called Angelica, FRO? They're pretty good! I like your taste in music, too!

Angelica rocks. I like their first album best, but I have all their stuff. Dennis Cameron is a major guitar hero as far as I'm concerned. He never got the respect of somebody like Ken Tamplin, but he is just excellent.

[Never_Scurred]

If it wasn't for emulation, I wouldn't have ponied up half of my income tax to buy the ps2 Cave games. I'm not saying it works out like that all the time, but if it wasn't for Esprade, don and dodonpachi, I would never have given the ps2 or their Cave ports a second thought. I just spent $500 on
Gradius V
DoDonpachi Dai OuJou
Espgaluda
Shiki II
Guilty Gear x2
Ibara
Ikaruga
a used GC for Ikaruga
a Hori pad
and a Magic swap set for the ps2

all things considered, I still get to enjoy the 'pachis, Ra.De, and all the other shmups I have on my HD, but whose fault is that? If these stubborn ass dev's don't wanna port these games over to the ps2, then f 'em cause they're only doing it to themselves. If I can't buy it(within financial reason-fuck a pcb, and I don't want to deal with a dreamcast), then oh well, either find the rom or learn to live without.
Cave, I love your games, I love your style. I want to give you my money, but you're sending me mixed messages. You say you want my money but only if I am Japanese. I mean, I would gladly pay for a port of Ketsui or Progear to the GC or ps2.

[GaijinPunch]

The Japanese are silly like that. They think that just because they write something on the packaging, it becomes instant law.

It's not just Japan. Companies want to protect their investments, regardless of legalities. Remember when Sega of America barred all Dreamcast imports on Ebay?

I wonder why I didn't see this post earlier.

Haha... me too. Great one.

[Krimzon Kitzune]

*

[Shatterhand]

What I'm saying is that when developers are stingy with their releases and not ensuring that anyone wanting a copy of a particular game gets one, I have no sympathy for them and thus resort to emulation.

Sorry, but at that point, you are not resorting to emulation. You are resorting to piracy. Not that I condone piracy or anything, I am just pointing out that you are confusing things.

[Krimzon Kitzune]

*

[Blade]

While I understand that some folks can get offended if they own the genuine game and respective console. I've got friends in foreign countries who get little if any gaming exposure. Like my friend in Romania for example. He doesn't get much if anything as far as games are concerned, so he's lucky if he can find a rom of a certain game.

I don't judge people as to whether or not they play roms...of course I'll get offended if that person relied on Savestates to get a high score, but that's another factor entirely .

Also, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who says it's better to play a rom of a certain game is either a troll or a n00b who knows nothing about videogames. Ownership is part of the joy of playing certain games. I own Arrowflash, and because of this, I enjoy it so much more than if it were just a rom.

[dave4shmups]

Well, Spectrum emulation is legal, so wonder if Atari 2600, 5200, and 7800 emulation is legal. If not, all I have to say is that www.atariage.com may be in trouble.

But that may be one solution to this whole issue-companies that aren't making money off of their games anymore could simply declare emulation of their computers/consoles/games to be legal. Heck, Toaplan, for example, isn't even around anymore, so what sense does it make for emulation of their games to be illegal?

[iatneH]

I own Arrowflash, and because of this, I enjoy it so much more than if it were just a rom.

I own Arrow Flash too, but I think it's pants. No offense

Heck, Toaplan, for example, isn't even around anymore, so what sense does it make for emulation of their games to be illegal?

The Beatles aren't around anymore either.

[llabnip]

Well, Spectrum emulation is legal, so wonder if Atari 2600, 5200, and 7800 emulation is legal. If not, all I have to say is that www.atariage.com may be in trouble.

Emulators are generally legal (unless they use some BIOS specific code to make them work). All of the best Atari 2600 emulators are legal (Z26, Stella, etc). It's the binary ROM images that are copyright. Vectrex roms are now available for use as Jay Smith has graciously given permission for non-profit distribution (note, this is not the same as public domain - he still retains the copyrights and can change this decision at any time). Most Atari 2600 games from 1977-1990 retain their copyrights. Some newer homebrew games are released freely. Most companies that produced those original early games have turned a blind eye towards emulation - they simply don't care enough to worry about it. Activision released a new PC, PS2 and GBA compiliation of games (all great - you should own it!) and asked Atari Age to remove those roms (which is why if you search for, say, Chopper Command you will find all the info but no ROM to download). AA has made it clear that they would remove any rom if contacted by the copyright holder - but for the most part the copyright holders don't seem to care enough about these wonderful but ancient 2600/5200/7800 games.

I prefer to own all of my games and play them on the original consoles or hardware whenever possible.

[GaijinPunch]

Heck, Toaplan, for example, isn't even around anymore, so what sense does it make for emulation of their games to be illegal?

Doesn't mean that nobody owns the rights to the game. Case in point: If you pirate a Cave game, they don't directly lose any money. AMI does, as Cave has never published a single game (not one). They simply develop. Doesn't make it any less wrong/illegal.