TUTORIAL for TVOne Corio2 240p Downscalers

[Maskman]

Hi Everybody,

I’m a newbie and a big fan of retro gaming especially Neo Geo and arcade in general. I also own PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Nintendo, Famicom, Saturn and PlayStation (from 1 to 4). I want to play Next gen consoles (PS4) to CRT TV/Pro Monitor. I’ll receive my C2-2350-A downscaler, and I’ll be glad if someone could share the best parameters for 240p. I saw this model is no longer supported by the editor and just hope the firmware version will not be a problem.

Thanks

[nes.og]

Can anyone please tell me if these can downscale 480i to 240P?

I’ve been searching but haven’t fond any info.

[performtsanho]

Can anyone please tell me if these can downscale 480i to 240P?

I’ve been searching but haven’t fond any info.

Yes they can convert 480i to 240p, but looks not good. Per my playstation 2 experience, the recommended solution is to upscale 480i to 480p first, then use tvone device to downscale to 240p。Playstation 2 480ito480p upscaling can be done via GSM.

[kitty666cats]

Can anyone please tell me if these can downscale 480i to 240P?

I’ve been searching but haven’t fond any info.

I may vaguely remember the answer being “yes” but people rarely ever did...? I think there was SOMETHING that did it, obvi not Emotia and also not the VSC + RGB interface (Rxi Xi etc)

Maybe the Ultracade UVC...?

[nes.og]

Also wondering about 240P pass through.

Is there a way just to search within a thread here?

[orange808]

Yes. You can convert 240p content that is rendered in 480i without flicker filtering using a Corio2.

The Corio2 has an option to manipulate the field offset. The C2 has a bob deinterlacing option that simply line doubles 480i. By changing the field offset, the machine succeeds in producing a "double strike" effect when the output is set to 240p.

The problem most people encounter is flicker filtering. Many games on PS2 and (all games?) on 3do have flicker filtering.

Games that use flicker filtering will appear to shake or tremble if you use field offset manipulation and "double strike" to get 240p. This will happen with an Extron RGB on a real CRT and I guarantee it will also happen with the new OSSC Pro-inspired firmware that is currently being debugged on this forum (because deinterlacing is not implemented).

Right now, there's not many good ways to convert 240p that is output as 480i with flicker filtering into native 240p. Maybe the Gonbes can deinterlace 480i and output 240p better than the DVDO iScan HD+ ?? That's all I can think of.

[orange808]

Also wondering about 240P pass through.

Is there a way just to search within a thread here?

I already answered that one. Yes. The analog C2 can pass RGB/YUV 240p along using "lock" and you still have the ability to change sync standards, change color space, and tweak the porches ("centering"). You'll add just over a frame of lag doing that. There are better solutions.

Analog C2 machines also behave like a "dumb" cable extender plug when they are powered down. That means the C2 does nothing at all as the signal passes through.

[orange808]

I don't know why I didn't think of this already.

For 240p rendered as 480i with flicker filtering, chain Framemeister 480p output through the Gonbes with custom firmware. That should work without terrible lag. The C2 adds about the same amount of latency as the Framemeister, so you'll need the Gonbes.

The OSSC Pro will probably eventually do all of this faster and in a single well built machine that's backed with VGP's customer service.

[nes.og]

@orange808: thanks for all the great info!

Does the 480i downscale function work using the Corio2 480p downscale config or are separate configs required?

Sorry about repeating the question about passthrough. I’ve been asking questions about the Corio2 and GBS8200 with GBSControl to compare and I got the responses mixed up in my head between both threads lol.

Ultimately will be nice if either of these unit can pass through 240P well so I can place near the end of my device chain and have everything run through it so I won’t have to add another switch in the chain to bypass when playing games that are native 240P.

Also not sure how they handle games that switch between both 240P and 480i content when you have set to downscale 480i to 240P. Not sure if they will screw with the game portions that are native 240P or if they pass those through properly.

I don’t have a Framemeister but was under the impression that they can already downscale 480i but it sounds like you are saying to up scale 480i to 480p to then pass to the Corio2 to dowscale to 240P

[orange808]

@orange808: thanks for all the great info!

Does the 480i downscale function work using the Corio2 480p downscale config or are separate configs required?

The Corio2 is a beast to operate. You'll be tweaking the settings for almost every new signal. There are very few use cases for field offset manipulation because so many sources use a flicker filter. The only thing I regularly use the C2 for is downscaling 480p to 240p.

Ultimately will be nice if either of these unit can pass through 240P well so I can place near the end of my device chain and have everything run through it so I won’t have to add another switch in the chain to bypass when playing games that are native 240P.

If your signal is already the desired color space and sync format, leave the C2 turned off and let the signal pass through "untouched".

Also not sure how they handle games that switch between both 240P and 480i content when you have set to downscale 480i to 240P. Not sure if they will screw with the game portions that are native 240P or if they pass those through properly.

That's always tricky. I don't remember what the Corio2 does with signal changes. I don't like it for upscaling. I feed 480i and 240p directly to my CRT monitor and tv. Most CRTs that were designed to watch video will instantly transition between 240p and 480i.

I don’t have a Framemeister but was under the impression that they can already downscale 480i but it sounds like you are saying to up scale 480i to 480p to then pass to the Corio2 to dowscale to 240P

I would not chain a Framemeister and the Corio2. That's going to be around 50ms of lag! It's too much latency. I understand the GBS is very popular for downscaling and it is faster. The GBS will require some extra work to set up and maintain.

I know I keep repeating this, but you really should wait on the OSSC Pro.

[SavagePencil]

So there’s still no easy way to change position and size?

[Maskman]

Hi,

I’m a newbie in the forum and big fan of 2D retro gaming, especially Neo Geo and arcade in general. I’ll received my C2-2350A soon (brand new), and this device is no longer supported by TVone for get any firmware; just hope it wouldn’t be a problem.
I plan to connect a PS4 to a CRT. Does someone could share the good 240p parameter to load please ?

Thanks.

[Dochartaigh]

So there’s still no easy way to change position and size?

It's pretty easy via the built-in menu (either OSD on your TV, or on the LCD of the Corio2 depending on your model), just only 1 bank of info gets saved, no presets for width/height and centering that I know how to use.



On a kinda random note since I stumbled on this tonight - has anybody done in-depth lag testing with a Corio2 (most interested in 480p to 240p tests, if the in/outcoming signal happens to changes the lag)? I remember a while ago I was corrected that I couldn't trust using a cell phone to take pictures of the 240p test suite lag test (with the 8x colored circles flashing by quickly) – something about the CRT refreshing top-to-bottom and the cameras sensor reading data in a similar way?? (if anybody knows more about this phenomenon please let me know - I can't find the posts about it anymore), so I've always been curious about this.

The random part is searching for this tonight I found a webpage on TVOne's site about the lag on these, took a pic too just in case they take that page down as it's ancient, and they actually cite the same 1.5 frames I think it is. Found that interesting.

[SavagePencil]

I think the quality of the scaling is so much better than the VSC 900, but the amount of twiddling necessary on a per-console basis without being able to save those presets makes it unwieldy. Has anyone explored any Corio-centric boards, or tech support that we could put in a feature request?

[JigsawMan]

I think the quality of the scaling is so much better than the VSC 900, but the amount of twiddling necessary on a per-console basis without being able to save those presets makes it unwieldy. Has anyone explored any Corio-centric boards, or tech support that we could put in a feature request?

I run mine through a Extron 203rxi as that gives me some image image control. Not perect but only takes a few seconds.

[SavagePencil]

Sorry, I meant my VSC 900/203 combo. It’s so much faster and easier—and has presets that work—vs. all the manual twiddling the Corio demands.

[Dochartaigh]

I think the quality of the scaling is so much better than the VSC 900, but the amount of twiddling necessary on a per-console basis without being able to save those presets makes it unwieldy. Has anyone explored any Corio-centric boards, or tech support that we could put in a feature request?

Sorry, I meant my VSC 900/203 combo. It’s so much faster and easier—and has presets that work—vs. all the manual twiddling the Corio demands.

This is the same as every scaler out there I'm familiar with (240p ones at least). It's been a few years since I played with these two I'll mention first so please excuse me if my memory is failing me, but on a Mimo Genius II but there's no presets just one setting (the manual I just looked at seems to say the same). Ditto for the ancient Emotia's – pretty sure those just have a single setting (the larger physical dials are nice though). VSC/203 doesn't really count in my eyes as that's still flickery to me (and I haven't messed with presets on that much as I don't care for 480i scalers). Only others off the top of my head would be something like a DVDO, or I'm sure somebody with the DIY GBS can chime in as well.

This is also EXACTLY like what every single CRT user has to endure (especially us BVM/PVM owners)... in that how different consoles, even if they're all "240p" (or in Corio2's case all 480p as that's the most common use-case scenario for most of us), the size and centering is ALWAYS a little bit different between consoles, so if you want it "perfect" you have to scale EVERY console EVERY single time you switch from one to the other. It sucks, but we deal with it and choose a defacto size/centering which is pretty decent for most but usually perfect for none... same way a Corio2 works.




For Corio2 releasing an update... these are pretty much discontinued. Was refreshing to see that they updated the firmware on some maybe 3 years ago though... but don't think they're going to totally re-write the functionality of the firmware for a super small segment like us. I can tell you what a tech at TVOne told me about what saves and why though:

Presets on all of these units work identically.

Presets take a snapshot of the unit's configuration at that given moment and saves them for easy recall. However, it only does that under things found in certain submenus, such as Adjust Outputs and Adjust Windows. It saves nothing that is changed under Adjust Sources (where the TL Pos. and BR Size controls are found), or under settings like Adjust Ethernet (for units equipped with that) in order not to inadvertently trigger any system-breaking changes such as suddenly miss-identifying what a particular source type should be interpreted as, or what the unit's IP address should be.

Settings like TL Pos. and BR Size are meant to be specific to an individual source connected directly to the unit, and are only really needed when the unit's Autoset functionality doesn't successfully find the correct placement for the image [Dochartaigh note: I've NEVER, EVER, had this work on any CRT display fyi]. If you're pre-switching ahead of the C2 units, you may want to look under the System submenu and change the Autoset sensitivity to see if this can correct the issue.

[orange808]

Corio2 has two processing modes with different latencies. For progressive signals, it's about one and a half frames. When you use motion compensation deinterlacing, the latency increases and I don't remember the time. It doesn't matter much, because the C2 deinterlacing is pretty bad quality--and nobody should use it. Weave and bob options are the same latency as progressive signals.

I tested with the Time Sleuth and camera testing matched the results. Lots of rolling shutter celly phones can capture 120fps. For NTSC, that's two captures per frame. If you mind the rolling shutter direction and use two identical sized CRTs sitting side-by-side, you'll get a pretty good estimate of lag. You can also take a few different videos to capture (photograph) the rasters at convenient locations.

[jmsbosss]

Can confirm the C-2 5000 works as a downscaler to 240p.

Thank you, added to the list.

tvone 5100 wii ngc 480p---240p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFbTDy_D7qY

tvone 6104 confirm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyU1iiQ-wkk

Thank you as well - updated the list.

For your C2-6104A, what do you think of it? I've been struggling for a use for mine and it's currently not in my rack. I bought it because I wanted to display 4x sources (mostly 240p and 480p, but also maybe Xbox360/PS3 720/1080p too), in a 2x2 grid, on a modern flatscreen TV (which I used a passive Extron or TVOne DVI to HDMI dongle I think), but I found that to get the proper scaling I had to set either a 240p or 480p profile (and/or auto scale for higher resolutions), and could only save one profile for each of the 4x individual inputs at a time (if my memory serves, it's been a LONG time since I tried this). So when I wanted to switch from a 240p source to a 480p source in one of the 2x2 windows it didn't look too hot. Actually, NEVER looked too hot in a 2x2 grid no matter the source TBH (I still think Corio2's are best suited to downscalers, not upscalers... but I may be spoiled with the OSSC).

I don't think I actually ever tried to use it like the other single-input Corio2's, where you're taking a single 480p source and downscaling it to 240p on a single screen – just tried 4x sources on a modern flatscreen in a 2x2 grid like you initially show in your video. To get 1 single source to downscale to 240p, did you use a DVI to VGA/breakout to BNC's for your JVC CRT PVM? Anything else needed to do in the settings besides choose a single 1-source output (instead of 2x2)?


This is my real question since I don't even have a flatscreen in my gaming room anymore (unless you count a native 480p plasma – I currently have two C2-2200's setup, one tuned for the geometry: width/height/centering of Xbox 360 480p (mostly for those cave games) which I don't touch the settings on much, and another for other 480p sources (OG Xbox, DC, GC mostly) which I'll have to quickly tune for those when I switch consoles. What I've been meaning to try on the C2-6104A is if that can replace those two 2200's, and let me have four INDIVIDUAL profiles - one for each of the 4x inputs, and have it SAVE those, so I can then have every 480p console with it's own tailored (and properly sized and centered) settings all ready to go, then just throw up whichever console on my CRT and I won't have to mess with the settings at all since they'll be programmed in and remembered. Have you tried this? Think it'll work? Since you can only save a SINGLE profile with width/height/centering on the other Corio2's, this might be a great way to have 4x profiles on a single unit (even if the 6104A is double the size of most other Corio2's - still a win-win).

The 6104 can hold four different configurations, each of which can be saved and loaded.You can easily connect different systems with different configurations.

[JigsawMan]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tvone-C2-235 ... 890.l49292

Some up on eBay (shipping from Qatar though) for an ok price.

[Dochartaigh]

The 6104 can hold four different configurations, each of which can be saved and loaded.You can easily connect different systems with different configurations.

Beautiful! Next time I reorganize something major in my rack setup I might add the 6104A back in! (would love too, but that's also a kind of nightmare with having to add 4x new outputs just for the 6104A lol...and I would be LOSING an output too if it's going to replace 2x other C2's... will have to think on it).



**EDIT***

Corio2 has two processing modes with different latencies. For progressive signals, it's about one and a half frames. When you use motion compensation deinterlacing, the latency increases and I don't remember the time. It doesn't matter much, because the C2 deinterlacing is pretty bad quality--and nobody should use it. Weave and bob options are the same latency as progressive signals.

I tested with the Time Sleuth and camera testing matched the results. Lots of rolling shutter celly phones can capture 120fps. For NTSC, that's two captures per frame. If you mind the rolling shutter direction and use two identical sized CRTs sitting side-by-side, you'll get a pretty good estimate of lag. You can also take a few different videos to capture (photograph) the rasters at convenient locations.

Forgot to say thank you for the information!

[Limera1n]

TVONE C2-5200, 7100, 7200, and 8110 confirmed at 240P. 8110 (which is the high-end model) also has a sharper image than all 5000, 2000 and 7000 series, especially at higher resolutions like 720P and 1080i. I got my 8110 at around USD$250.

From my experience, all 5000, 7000, and 8000 series should work.

Also to my knowledge, all models labelled "Down Converter" including the C2-21XX won't output 240P. They can only do a handful of resolutions including 480i, 480P, 720P and 1080i. Still cheap and handy tho if you only need 480i.

https://imgur.com/a/TY4KMOt

[kiddcabbage]

[First post]

I bought a C2-400 for this purpose, unfortunately as New because I wasn't seeing any pop up on ebay these days.

But I'm having problems trying to get it to work with my Trinitron (non-RBG). My hope is to get a 240p signal out of this thing through composite or S-Video, but I'm having some big issues going about it since there is no clean conversion from VGA to Composite/S-Video that I've found which supports 240p.

Any tips for getting this working at the right resolution on either of my two supported formats?

[PogOrion]

I have a C2-750. I don't have a PC to transfer files to my Corio2 unit for 240p settings.

I am very familiar with navigating the Corio2 menus. I use it on my PC CRT monitor and my 15kHz Sony PVM.

Can anyone share their 240p resolution settings under the "resolutions" part of the menu?

I would be grateful, and I can input them manually.

[Dochartaigh]

TVONE C2-5200, 7100, 7200, and 8110 confirmed at 240P. 8110 (which is the high-end model) also has a sharper image than all 5000, 2000 and 7000 series, especially at higher resolutions like 720P and 1080i. I got my 8110 at around USD$250.

From my experience, all 5000, 7000, and 8000 series should work.

Thanks for the info! I will add to the list. Do you know any history of these model lines? It looks like the 5000's always seem to be of an older make (drastically different buttons, jog dial, etc.) but they're still C2's...

Many of the others seem to all be switchers, which can also scale? Are you able to save different 240p profiles PER input? (up to 8 inputs it looks like, depending on model), or is it only 2x profiles for each of the 2x outputs many of these models have?

But I'm having problems trying to get it to work with my Trinitron (non-RBG). My hope is to get a 240p signal out of this thing through composite or S-Video, but I'm having some big issues going about it since there is no clean conversion from VGA to Composite/S-Video that I've found which supports 240p.

Unfortunately I don't think that's possible. Tutorial says "240p can only be output via RGBS or YPbPr-type connections it seems" and I haven't found any different in the time since I wrote that.

I have a C2-750. I don't have a PC to transfer files to my Corio2 unit for 240p settings.
I am very familiar with navigating the Corio2 menus. I use it on my PC CRT monitor and my 15kHz Sony PVM.
Can anyone share their 240p resolution settings under the "resolutions" part of the menu?

No software needed, you can put the numbers in manually - they're the same values as listed in the programming directions on page 1 (orange808’s original programming instructions. I do not know if the display will blank out or get scrambled as you're inputting these values though (or if it allows you to finish ALL the values, then save, then it'll display with the new resolution...). It could be problematic if your unit only has a OSD –no LCD display– and you can't see the numbers via the OSD to program if it's scrambled on-screen.

[PTSamurai]

I've been enjoying my C2-400 for over a year now, mostly downscaling 480p content; however, I am now trying to downscale some modern pixel-art games to achieve their pixel perfect forms. I've asked around on Facebook, but figured I'd ask here as well since this thread is where I first learned about the Corio2. I am a complete novice when it comes to H/V timings and porch settings, but I am trying to display Panzer Paladin on Switch in it's native resolution, 320x200. The 240p MASTER resolution preset has no problems downscaling the Switch from 1080p, 720p, and 480p, but it's outputting 720x240 which is not pixel perfect in this case. I've tried making custom resolutions for 320x200 and 320x240 with no luck so far. Using the 240p MASTER resolution as the base, what would I need to adjust my values to in order to achieve pixel perfection? I'm outputting all of this onto a PVM-20L5.

240p MASTER settings
Pixel Clock: 13.539
H timing V timing
Scan rate: 15.780 Frame rate: 59.999
Active: 720 Active: 240
Front porch: 41 Front Porch: 9
Sync width: 64 Sync width: 3
Back porch: 33 Back porch: 11
total clk/Ln: 858 Total Ins/frm: 263
Polarity: negative Polarity: negative

[Fudoh]

You most likely can't go as low as to reduce the active lines to 200.

On a PC (where MCGA/VGA games are running at 320x200) the refresh rate is increased to 70Hz (from 60Hz), so the scan frequency can be kept at (doubled) 31khz.

What you have to do instead is to keep a 240p output timing, but add an underscan area to the image, so that basically end up with 200 active lines plus 20 black ones on top and 20 black ones on the bottom.

I don't recall if the C2 units allow you to do that. If they don't then you can pretty easily achieve this using a secondary scaler in between the image source and the down scaling device.

[orange808]

Why wouldn't 200 active be okay? Find Resolutions in the menu. Reduce the active lines and it automatically begins vblank earlier (adjusts the porch) at the bottom of the screen. As long as the total remains 262 or 263 and we send the vsync signal on time, does it really matter when we start vblanking?

That will create underscan with the blank area at the bottom of the screen. Should create underscan safely.

Also reduce the horizontal active to maintain aspect ratio.

Use the H/V Position settings under the Corio2 "Windows" menu to center your image.

[Foxe]

I just came across these and I'm pretty interested. It seems fairly difficult to find any of the recommended ones at a fair price though. Would anybody here have one they're willing to part with?

[Dochartaigh]

I just came across these and I'm pretty interested. It seems fairly difficult to find any of the recommended ones at a fair price though. Would anybody here have one they're willing to part with?

Going back a few months I count 8x compatible units under $100 on eBay sold listings - they're definitely still out there and can be reasonable.

Also, this is the forum if you're looking to buy something: viewforum.php?f=17