Under Defeat for DC

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:58 am

BBH wrote:
roker wrote:OMGHi2u!

Hi I wuz wonder if any1 can give good advice on how 2 play this game its so kewl

peace out!
shoot the enemies and dodge the bullets they shoot at you

that is my top secret strategy

Good going, I guess you just made the strategy forum obsolete.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:21 am

Ceph wrote:shoot the enemies and dodge the bullets they shoot at you

that is my top secret strategy

That would be immoral. The moral way to beat the game is to time out all the enemies.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:27 am

louisg wrote:
Ceph wrote:shoot the enemies and dodge the bullets they shoot at you

that is my top secret strategy
That would be immoral. The moral way to beat the game is to time out all the enemies.

That quote is from BBH. And your morals differ from his.

Soldato J · Post by **Soldato J** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:54 pm

yeah now all the shooter noobs will know what to do lol....

In other news, I still suck at UD...3rd stage boss...

Nei First · Post by **Nei First** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:18 pm

I’m gonna make this my very last post on this, and then end it. Simply because this isn’t the right thread to discuss it.
Though it’s clear we have very different points of views.

Ceph wrote:
Nei First wrote: When has it EVER been morally right to kill another?
When has it EVER been morally right to rape?
When has it EVER been morally right to steal?
For instance at war, in self defense, to preserve your own people, as revenge.

This doesn’t answer the question, and rather reflects partly what I've been saying all along. It’s human nature to sympathise with those who we feel have been done worse, or have a more justified reason than the other, to commit an act. Whether it’s revenge, preservation and so on. This doesn’t however; change the fact that the act itself is morally wrong.

Also, you only quoted just one argument, suggested by some psychologists on morality.

It has been argued that morality is simply whatever norms are present within a given society at a given time.

I tend to disagree with this, as it goes against the very principle of the existence of good and evil, or the difference between right and wrong.

SAM wrote:If you are talking about "valid timeless morals", there is a simply of correct answer of this: Both sides are "Bad".

Exactly. Yes I agree. My point is only that morals, do exist without changing their value.

DC906270 · Post by **DC906270** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:50 pm

Nei First wrote:If you read about WW2, you’ll find that the ss soldiers who were behind most of the killings were convinced (again brainwashed) into believing what they were doing was right, through propaganda, nazi ideals etc. Which reflects the point I made in my last post, that people will use other reasons, or look at the benefits of their actions to try to justify their cause, and ultimately convince themselves that what they’re doing is right.

yeah, i think there are lots of people who will follow orders from those they see as being in a "superior" position to themselves, "if he is in charge, it must be right" seems to be the logic. I see this at work and in everyday life a lot. Also, if "everyone" is doing similar, the majority of people will not even question whether what they are doiing is right, or not, theyll just follow. This is a common flaw in the human charcter. Although there are exceptions to this

Texhnolyze · Post by **Texhnolyze** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:25 pm

Sheesh. After reading the last two pages, I think some of you should stay far away from philosophy, ethics and war.

But I do trust many of you for advice on shmups.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:12 pm

Stanley Milgram. Read up on his experiments.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:30 pm

Damocles wrote:Stanley Milgram. Read up on his experiments.

Yeah, I thought about bringing it up (I have read the book) but we've really been off topic long enough. I believe that there is lots of proof for morals being partly relativistic and that "evil" is merely a simplistic concept while Nei believes the opposite. Let's just leave it at that.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:40 pm

i'll just interrupt the adolescent pseudointellectuals and just say :

I just got a copy.. not bad!

great attention to detail on the GFX, best explosions EVAR, and shame the soundtrack sounds like some fucking 1980's hospital drama...

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:19 pm

Without risking another on topic post... I am looking forward to getting this on Naomi when the price comes down; I don't seem to like any of the Naomi shooters I have enough to keep the system and I am hoping this game will change that.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:11 am

pixelcorps wrote:great attention to detail on the GFX, best explosions EVAR, and shame the soundtrack sounds like some fucking 1980's hospital drama...

Maaaaan, that soundtrack grooves. It's immoral for you to suggest that!

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:15 am

louisg wrote:
pixelcorps wrote:great attention to detail on the GFX, best explosions EVAR, and shame the soundtrack sounds like some fucking 1980's hospital drama...

Maaaaan, that soundtrack grooves. It's immoral for you to suggest that!

you can't argue about morality there

at that point in time it was morally right for him to deride that soundtrack

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:31 am

The Coop wrote:Remember that Under Defeat game that came out a while ago?

Yeah. Fun game. Anyone else play it yet?

I just realized that it's been over three weeks since I got this game through the mail and I STILL haven't opened the shrink wrap yet.

D · Post by D » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:52 am

from lik-sang:

(1) G.Rev's Thundering Heli-shooter Under Defeat lands on The Dreamcast - In Stock Now
Renowned shooter specialist G.Rev, famous for Border Down and Senko no Ronde, unleashed Under Defeat upon Japanese arcades last October, and due to very heavy demand, recently ported it to the Dreamcast too. With both a range of projectile weapons and bombs to drop, you and your chopper will take on the forces of air, land and sea across five large stages. In either single or two player modes, this'll bring back not just your DC, but fond memories of those glorious Desert Strike days too.
New features to the home edition include an arranged musical score, an art gallery, practice mode, the ability to save replays and perhaps most exciting, be blown away by how the pro's play! We have footage of four stages here, showing off the impressive 3D top-down graphics, and you can also download the arcade start-up video plus a soundtrack demo.

These downloads should offer a glimpse of what awaits you while placing your order and then dusting off that Dreamcast for another round of the good old days [... or buying yourself a new one, like I just did (again!) two weeks ago ]

Desert Strike? What an insult. I don't even think Psikyo are worthy of getting UD mentioned as a "Zero Gunner 3" But you know it is the same amount of characters, coincidence? think not. so they definetly choose that with care.
Under Defeat = 11 characters
Zero Gunner3 = 11 characters
They were probably like to the staff: "Guys, we need a name with 11 characters"

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:29 pm

A side effect of Under Defeat's release: The demand (and price) of Border Down has gone up considerably.

neoalphazero · Post by **neoalphazero** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:25 am

So Edge gave it a 6 out of 10, same score they gave Border Down.

I can't help but scratch my head, yeah it isn't a perfect game but it has sweet simple gameplay, attractive visuals, and finishing touches that many shooters end up lacking.

Variant 2nd loop visuals, some interesting bits like the fortress boss blinding you, remixed soundtrack, a fully stocked port....apparently I'm easy to please. *-neo

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Wed May 17, 2006 5:16 am

neoalphazero wrote:So Edge gave it a 6 out of 10, same score they gave Border Down.

I can't help but scratch my head, yeah it isn't a perfect game but it has sweet simple gameplay, attractive visuals, and finishing touches that many shooters end up lacking.

Variant 2nd loop visuals, some interesting bits like the fortress boss blinding you, remixed soundtrack, a fully stocked port....apparently I'm easy to please. *-neo

Nah. Shmups just don't get the numbers they used to, as they're seen as "simplistic" or "niche" by a good number of reviewers these days. Somehow, I guess some folks just can't justify giving a game like Halo, Neverwinter Nights and Gradius V 9s and 10s because of the game involvement differences.

Nakano · Post by **Nakano** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:31 pm

neoalphazero wrote:So Edge gave it a 6 out of 10, same score they gave Border Down.

I can't help but scratch my head, yeah it isn't a perfect game but it has sweet simple gameplay, attractive visuals, and finishing touches that many shooters end up lacking.

Variant 2nd loop visuals, some interesting bits like the fortress boss blinding you, remixed soundtrack, a fully stocked port....apparently I'm easy to please. *-neo

Yeah I don't understand that too, the highest mark a shooter got in recent years was probably 7 (in UK mags).

Nakano · Post by **Nakano** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:37 pm

[quote="The Coop[/quote]

Nah. Shmups just don't get the numbers they used to, as they're seen as "simplistic" or "niche" by a good number of reviewers these days. Somehow, I guess some folks just can't justify giving a game like Halo, Neverwinter Nights and Gradius V 9s and 10s because of the game involvement differences.[/quote]

Thats true, but shouldn't they review the games in terms of the genre? Its difficult to say, but the low scores of shmup games in mags will imo deter potential new players. They don't see them in the arcades anymore, so its the mags reviews or word of mouth.

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:16 pm

I think they are off the mark with this game. Its been played since it came out in my office. The guys are all hooked on it at lunch-time.. so much so that some have even bought a DC so they can play the game and practice..

These are all quite casual gamers.. Ikaruga scarred them off. I think this title is an absolute classic.

99pence · Post by **99pence** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:25 pm

Well load of Saturn shooters got in the 90%s in a UK mag recently. I think Souky got the highest.

OK it was a retro gaming magazine. I think the screenshots in that mag would terrify non regular 2D enthusiasts. Seen the screenshots of Radigy in this months? They are pretty awful.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Wed May 17, 2006 5:42 pm

It got 75% in a German mag that also reviews imports.

For comparison, Ibara and Radilgy only got around 50%.

Must be the accessibilty factor.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Wed May 17, 2006 7:14 pm

Ibara got 62% and Radirgy 51%

they only care for graphics imo i dont think they know how to actually "play" these games

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Wed May 17, 2006 8:42 pm

Plasmo wrote:they only care for graphics imo i dont think they know how to actually "play" these games

Yeah, you can tell by the review. For them the main difference in Ibara Arrange was the selectable weapons.

At least they gave Gradius V and Ikaruga 87% respectively, but you're right, I'm sure it was mainly due to the graphics.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Thu May 18, 2006 1:21 am

At least they gave Gradius V and Ikaruga 87% respectively, but you're right, I'm sure it was mainly due to the graphics.

Or the Treasure

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Thu May 18, 2006 4:11 am

This game is just boring the crap out of me. The graphics are great, and so are the bombs and the rocket special weapon, but you cannot upgrade the main weapon, and the other sub weapons don't seem to make much of a dent.

I'd rather be playing Twin Cobra, honestly.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Thu May 18, 2006 6:06 am

dave4shmups wrote:This game is just boring the crap out of me. The graphics are great, and so are the bombs and the rocket special weapon, but you cannot upgrade the main weapon, and the other sub weapons don't seem to make much of a dent.

I'd rather be playing Twin Cobra, honestly.

The cannon is actually really powerful too, especially as something that can fly around even when your chopper is pinned down by fire. You should watch the strategy videos that are unlocked and also check out the thread we've got going on the Strategy forum. =)

Twin Cobra does indeed rock.

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:12 am

Yeah, even the vulcan is usefull at certain points in most stages. There is a lot of subtle strategies in the game. Obviusly its not everyones cup of tea, but I think this is the most accesable shooter for a good few years. Much more than Ikaruga.. Ikaruga is the one which people use as the last mainstream shooter, but thats only because the Mags raved about it. Most of my mates (they are not hardcore shump enthusiasts, but they all grew up playing them in the arcades when we were young and could clock 1942 etc) They thought it was ok, but it never grabbed them like Under defeat has.

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:36 pm

My roommate is the effects guy in a game development studio here in new york and he is working on explosions for the "next-gen" game they have in the works right now. When he saw the explosions in Under Defeat, he took down notes because he was so impressed.

He was a little skeptical about having both of our TVs in the living room side by side with mine turned 90 degrees, but I think after he played Under Defeat, he gets it