Unpopular opinion / Hot take thread - get it off your chest!

[BIL]

Nah. HAWT TAKE: 99% of gaming forums are AIDS-ridden shite. Here I don't need to gingerly explain why a 15min credit-feed isn't "beating the game" to a dozen newbies and a handful of shit-flinging spastics several times a week. (sometimes the latter pop up here, true, but nowhere's perfect)

Were the presence of OT, or Hardware, or Dick Stock truly killing Shumpschat, it'd deserve it. I don't believe it is, though. Shumpschat has always been too sleepy for diehards.

HAWT TAKE mkII: The term "retro gaming" can go right into that unlovely bucket, too! Patronising slop from charlatan hipsters who'd relegate valuable genres to the retirement home/Special Olympics. OMG, I'm going to watch some "retro films," and listen to "retro music," then go out for some "retro cuisine" in my finest "retro couture!" Said nobody worth listening to ever.

It's also flatly inaccurate. Stuff from CURRENT YEAR+5 (and beyond!) is being discussed right now in OT, as in Shumpschat. What is that - "Antero Gaming?" What part of contemporaneously evaluating Blazing Chrome and Zombie Movie Game Part 2: Jailhouse Painal Boogaloo requires a time machine? Hard Gayming is Hard Gayming. Some genres are especially suited to it. They still are. That didn't change when "Press X To Do Painal" became the new mainstream.

[Sumez]

Why not close Off Topic altogether and focus fully on shmups again? There are many other places where you can discuss "retro gaming".

This just isn't true.

[copy-paster]

This is the only place outside of some Discord servers I'm in that I can express my liking of old games. Given the fact 75% of this forum's activities mostly come from OT.

[Plasmo]

This is the only place outside of some Discord servers I'm in that I can express my liking of old games. Given the fact 75% of this forum's activities mostly come from OT.

And this is precisely the problem. The forum is called "Shmups Forum" and most of the people seem to come here for the Off Topic. This creates wrong expectations and perhaps scares away people with a genuine interest in shmups when they see people in here talk about all kinds of other genres more than about shmups.

At least the threads on politics are fun to read (= is that a hot take?).

Why not simply open up a new forum and migrate this forum's Off Topic to the new forum's On Topic? I'm sure there's some worthwhile discussions to have on "retro gaming" (to trigger BIL once more I hate the term myself probably as much as you do~) but as long as it has no connection to shmups, why clutter the Shmups Forum with it?

[schleichfahrt]

why clutter the Shmups Forum with it?

The classic pro off-topic arguments (and why most forums large and small have one) are user retention and, ironically, declutter.
Retention as in: keep the users on your site, instead of risking them moving over to another site completely. Today this may be not as relevant anymore, as forums themselves are fading into oblivion, but it surely was. And as a means to declutter the main on-topic forums. If you don't provide a containment for these posts, they will pop up all over the on-topic threads (even more as they do now, such as this very reply).
That's why most places keep them around, even though they typically need heavy moderation.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Why not close Off Topic altogether and focus fully on shmups again? There are many other places where you can discuss "retro gaming".

This just isn't true.

To expand on this: shmups as a genre are naturally a skill-based genre. They attract players who are willing to dedicate or obsess over a particular game in the goal of clearing or even getting high scores. As such, a lot of players who play shmups are also into other heavy skill-based genres, including other types of arcade games. It's only natural there'd be overlap there and for the community to want to be able to also discuss those in a centralized location on the forum where they're already chatting games and bonding with other fellow shmup fans. There's a reason this forum's attracted a strong group of people in the hardware forum as well, and has some pretty in-depth discussions on non-shmup games. Attracting shmups fans improves the quality of those discussions about other games as a beneficial side effect. They're part of the reason the off-topic section is as popular as it is, and that's something to be seen as a bonus, rather than a bad thing.

Also, the idea that eliminating any space for non-shmup discussions will somehow improve shmups discussions is a falsehood. Many of the people who enjoy shmups also play a variety of other genres, both out of enjoyment and also so they don't burnout on playing nothing but shmups. Not everyone who enjoys shmups is going to be able to enjoy dedicating 100% of their gaming time specifically to shmups. Giving a section for discussing other games is something that generally improves the community experience as a whole.

[Lethe]

Shumpschat has always been too sleepy for diehards.

The BIL superpower of encyclopedically recalling the perfect thread strikes again.

As a non-theoretical new person the worth of this forum is in the ~15 years of accumulated information/misinformation/history/culture and the turbulence that comes with that. It's rare to see a place like this have as much activity as it does - such long-term hangouts are a treasure. Cutting out half of that won't revitalize anything, it'll kill it utterly, because Shmups Chat isn't the glue holding this place together any more (and doesn't seem to have been for quite a while). Besides this discussion itself is the most off-topic clutter I've seen since registering.

If I want reliable up-to-date gameplay or record info then Shmups Wiki has been developing just fine. If I wanted "pure curated on-topic discussion" then I'd go to Reddit. Just kidding, I don't hate myself that much.

It sure is, but it's also a hugely influential one which Cave themselves and much of the industry have spent a couple of decades iterating on.

You say iterating on as if it's just the one game. DDP may have been the subgenre progenitor but that doesn't mean it's been obsoleted. IMO the Cave style only really solidified in the CV1k era; the 90s games are all experimental and even DOJ feels very different in the details. Other developers and the doujin scene caught the danmaku fever but most of them went their own way. Doujin games in general tend to be more directly influenced by Galuda/Mushi/DOJ/Ketsui than DDP in my experience.

For the record I like the 68k single-looper trifecta (Ra.De./Feveron/Guwange) better than DDP, but my opinion of DDP has improved a fair bit recently.

[copy-paster]

And this is precisely the problem. The forum is called "Shmups Forum" and most of the people seem to come here for the Off Topic. This creates wrong expectations and perhaps scares away people with a genuine interest in shmups when they see people in here talk about all kinds of other genres more than about shmups.

Seriously this statement had me went "WTF!?". That's like saying ban shmups on speedruning community cause shmups is mostly not about speed run.

To be fair from what I know majority of OT regulars ARE shmup players too, they're rarely in shmupschat either don't have time playing them or get bored with the genre. I'm kinda like this right now though I get slightly bored with shmups.

forums themselves are fading into oblivion, but it surely was.

Forums is slowly dying, places like Discord is more effective in almost every way imo. Like half of shmupschat regulars are move on to shmups Discord.

[BIL]

This is the only place outside of some Discord servers I'm in that I can express my liking of old games. Given the fact 75% of this forum's activities mostly come from OT.

And this is precisely the problem. The forum is called "Shmups Forum" and most of the people seem to come here for the Off Topic. This creates wrong expectations and perhaps scares away people with a genuine interest in shmups when they see people in here talk about all kinds of other genres more than about shmups.

As someone who frequents both Shmups Chat and Off Topic, I will attest that both move about as slowly. If either's seeing rapid updates, it's probably because a nerdfight has broken out. For at least a decade now it's been slow and steady. Or as I prefer to think of it, SLOW AND SEXY

I don't believe traffic's being diverted from Shmups Chat by any of the subforums, so don't take this as a witch hunt, but from a casual once-over, Hardware seems like the happenin' joint these days. And that's great, I rely on that place all the time, even if I don't currently participate in it.

And TBH, even if would-be Shmups Chatters are being frightened away by the presence of Off Topic, or any other subforum... do you think they'd persist here? Recently, I had one of our resident spastics daub his shit on his face and declare Nerd Fatwa on me, because I told him to post timestamps. It happens! But if someone's eager to discuss Gradius slowdown accuracy, yet shy enough to decline because STG fans enjoy other genres too - I can't imagine them being encouraged by that one-man shitshow.

And we all know there have been many such incidents (■｀ω´■)

At least the threads on politics are fun to read (= is that a hot take?).

No way bro! That's an ICY COOL take. Best television ever IMO, just gotta supplement with a bit of REEEsetera and Kiwifarms.

Why not simply open up a new forum and migrate this forum's Off Topic to the new forum's On Topic? I'm sure there's some worthwhile discussions to have on "retro gaming" (to trigger BIL once more I hate the term myself probably as much as you do~) but as long as it has no connection to shmups, why clutter the Shmups Forum with it?

I can't help it When someone says "retro gaming" I get ASS MAD

I don't think splitting SC and OT would accomplish much besides creating two slow forums where there was once one.

Anyhoo, I always valued this community not so much for diehard WR-calibre STG content - those posters, you among them, have always been rare - but for a level of hobbyist discernment I credit to most us, even casual players, understanding arcade design principles. EG, these games don't "end" after fifteen minutes of credit-fed shitflailing, nor are they lesser because you can't Press X To Do Painal.

I don't play FromSoft stuff, and only rarely Falcom stuff, but I'm glad I've got hefty OT threads on both to consult. I don't do much soldering currently, but I like having Hardware for same. I'd rather hear what this place thinks of games, soldering irons and movies than some GameFAQs/Reddit-tier shithole, where mainstream "fuck and chuck" mentality holds sway.

It doesn't matter, I suppose. Comrade BLOODF will decide.

How about restricting OT access to members with two (2) STs to their name? That is joke!

[Rastan78]

You could limit OT access to members who hold at least one Arcadia WR and also own at least 100 pre JAMMA arcade boards.

[BIL]

^^^ GOOD IDEA I have the boards! Just gotta bust out the autofire circuit and snatch the Metal Black WR from dem 30hz PUSSEHCLAATS

I'M COMIN 4 IT (・｀W´・) (｀ω´メ) (◎ω◎;)

COMIN HARD IN YU RAAASHOLE

[Rastan78]

F that dude. Auto is cheating. Just work out your finger muscles by punching slabs of rock until you can tap at a consistent 30 hz

[BIL]

Yeah you're right. The siren song of HIGH CALIBRE OT CHAT drove me to seek quick results! Time to consult Metal Black Cat and reclaim mi RIDDIM

[donluca]

And this is precisely the problem. The forum is called "Shmups Forum" and most of the people seem to come here for the Off Topic.

This forum has also an incredibly resourceful Hardware section which is not necessarily shmup centric, but it deals with all kind of hardware.

I don't know about the other sections of this website, but if you dump all controverial/unconvenient discussions into offtopic hoping for it to get buried by other threads, then it's no wonder that it has become the most active part of this website.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The "forums are dying" thing is a trash meme and has been brought up and discredited before. Forums don't serve the same function as instant messenger services like Discord. There's a huge benefit to the forum as a storage medium for finding information since game specific info is tied to individual, easily searchable and indexable threads. Instant messenger services are better just for more casually hanging out and chatting with folks. They're a nightmare to search when looking for actual info.

[MathU]

Hot take: I almost exclusively post on Shmups Chat.

[OmegaFlareX]

Forums is slowly dying, places like Discord is more effective in almost every way imo. Like half of shmupschat regulars are move on to shmups Discord.

Discord is a garbage substitute for both meaningful discussion and archival of information. It's a lot closer to the banal noise of IRC, and if that's the future of online communities, yikes.

Hot take: I almost exclusively post on Shmups Chat.

Fuck, same. I engage in exactly two threads in OT and only sometimes at that.

[BIL]

Those are statements, not takes. (■｀ω´■) Here's another: my longest post ( ) in the past decade of Shumps Chat has been in Dick Stock.

[Sengoku Strider]

And this is precisely the problem. The forum is called "Shmups Forum" and most of the people seem to come here for the Off Topic. This creates wrong expectations and perhaps scares away people with a genuine interest in shmups when they see people in here talk about all kinds of other genres more than about shmups.

I'm not sure anyone with that much raw cowardice exists. I've never been on a forum that didn't have an off topic section.

[floralcateyes]

Don't have any real say in the matter, as a newcomer who mostly lurks. And as BIL said above, it's up to the owner in the end. But I'm curious: would the people who want to keep things as they are be more amenable to migrating off-topic to a different forum if that meant getting a non-shmup high score board? Don't know the admins' reasons for not implementing one despite the interest. But I do know that there are reasons, and I suspect they aren't as applicable to a forum that isn't supposed to be focused on shmups in the first place.

Also, I don't think Plasmo's "scare" means actually afraid or intimidated. I'm guessing he's referring to the kinds of hardcore (or wannabe hardcore) players who look at this forum and come to the (arguably uninformed) conclusion that the people here don't talk about or even play shmups anymore. You know the type. You could say the forum is better off without them. But I'd think they're the kind who would be willing to share and discuss strategies. So it's a bit of a shame that said strategies (no matter how arrogantly given) aren't archived here and are instead tossed to the winds of Discord, etc. Even a short reply to a one-off question can be helpful to someone twenty years later.

Again, take this as a question from a curious outsider/lurker, rather than as a hot take from someone who thinks he knows better (but doesn't).

[MathU]

Ceph, one of our posters here who hasn't been very active in a long while, once made a forum for 2D gaming to try and address the discussion we're having in here. I posted there for a bit but it kind of faded away before long after the initial hype died down.

[BIL]

Also, I don't think Plasmo's "scare" means actually afraid or intimidated. I'm guessing he's referring to the kinds of hardcore (or wannabe hardcore) players who look at this forum and come to the (arguably uninformed) conclusion that the people here don't talk about or even play shmups anymore. You know the type. You could say the forum is better off without them. But I'd think they're the kind who would be willing to share and discuss strategies. So it's a bit of a shame that said strategies (no matter how arrogantly given) aren't archived here and are instead tossed to the winds of Discord, etc. Even a short reply to a one-off question can be helpful to someone twenty years later.

In total honesty: if closing OT would attract more of the disciplined, highly motivated posters who've always been the exception here, I'd be up for it. A trial period of a year or so could be interesting.

But I think it's a false premise. By first-rate player standards, this place was always a casual hangout with a handful of exceptional contributors. The idea that it'll blossom into Shumpistan™ if shorn of extraneous subforums is ass-backwards.

I would suggest the opposite course of action. Start "STG.com" or somesuch, adminned and moderated by exceptionally motivated and skilled players. Three forums: Chat, HS and ST. Maybe more for replay sharing, streaming setups, meets, and other needs directly related to high-level play.

And that's it. Jokeposters and shitposters are shot on sight. Casualposters are discouraged, none of that "which loli u fuk" shite. This is a place for committed STG players! You want to talk Aleste canon? That's what Shmups Forum is for.

I don't care either way, personally - gaming's my thing, I'll do it until I'm dead - but I like to see fellow hard gaymers happy, and I cannot imagine the original proposal - whipping this place's casual audience into a crack team of WR killers - working out.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say about it.

I'm curious: would the people who want to keep things as they are be more amenable to migrating off-topic to a different forum if that meant getting a non-shmup high score board?

It's neither here nor there to me, but I don't play many non-STGs for score. All respect to LordBBH but when I play Shock Troopers I can't contain my homocidal rage.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Even when I would be very little gaming whatsoever, I believe majority of my posts on here were gaming-related, and not in a "played for 5 minutes emulated and it sucks" way. That much of it was posted on the OT subforum being simply because not all of them were shmups. Limiting any forum strictly to shmups is a pipe dream anyway; imagine discussing Treasure games without Gunstar Heroes or S&P. Or discussing only shmup minigames from other genre games without discusing any other playable content of these games.

[floralcateyes]

Thanks for the reply, BIL. Have seen OT HS requested here and there, so I was curious.

---

Dunno if this take is in any way hot but: failing in shmups can be super enjoyable as well. Had a Batrider Normal Course run about a year ago. Highway stage. Encountered the pair of helicopters right before one of the tunnel sections. Dealt with them badly, allowed myself to get walled in by a line of bullets, and ended up dropping a full level medal. Distraught while entering the tunnel, I hear the announcer go "No!" right as I go under the arch/entrance that blocks your view. Look at my score and realize I just dropped an extend. Look back at my ship and immediately lose my last life.

Shame about not getting the clear that run, but I was too amused to be angry.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Dunno if this take is in any way hot but: failing in shmups can be super enjoyable as well. Had a Batrider Normal Course run about a year ago. Highway stage. Encountered the pair of helicopters right before one of the tunnel sections. Dealt with them badly, allowed myself to get walled in by a line of bullets, and ended up dropping a full level medal. Distraught while entering the tunnel, I hear the announcer go "No!" right as I go under the arch/entrance that blocks your view. Look at my score and realize I just dropped an extend. Look back at my ship and immediately lose my last life.

Shame about not getting the clear that run, but I was too amused to be angry.

Sounds like a good run in the Pursuit mode of Burnout 2, really.

[Squire Grooktook]

>re, the whole off topic thing

In my experience, it's not terribly uncommon for the "general" / "off topic" / "shit-talking" boards to gradually become the default in hardcore niche communities. I've seen it happen before, hell I'm in a similar community more often then this one that has the same thing going on (a Discord server for translation and play of Japanese Table Top RPG's). If you're not an obsessive weirdo there's only so much that you can discuss one single topic at a continuous rate before it slows down and you're left with a circle of friends who have bonded over it all and simply enjoy eachother's company now.

[Vanguard]

Forums are at their best when they're lightly moderated, and where it's fine and normal for discussions to go off topic, just like conversations do all the time irl.

[donluca]

Forums are at their best when they're lightly moderated, and where it's fine and normal for discussions to go off topic, just like conversations do all the time irl.

This is only true when a forum has a group of people who has been knowing each other for years, so even if someone goes a bit overboard there's not moderation needed.

I am part of a dying italian forum where we've all been knowing each other for more than 12 years and I think there are maybe 100 or less users active in there and it's exactly like this, no moderation required, mainly because we're all grown up men who know how to behave and even the roasting and jokes do not upset others.

[chempop]

we're all grown up men who know how to behave and even the roasting and jokes do not upset others.

Exactly.. although everyone can have a rough day when the wrong comment sends you into a tizzy.

A good example is how I used to call save-state practice cheating (because it is). People used to flip out all the time because I am an ass and it diminished their accomplishments. Still to this day I don't understand why they don't just embrace their inner-cheater-self and flaunt it

"Shmups are like playing a musical instrument"

"I'm just using all the tools available to git gud"

Doesn't get much hotter than that

[Sumez]

Why not simply open up a new forum and migrate this forum's Off Topic to the new forum's On Topic? I'm sure there's some worthwhile discussions to have on "retro gaming" (to trigger BIL once more I hate the term myself probably as much as you do~) but as long as it has no connection to shmups, why clutter the Shmups Forum with it?

It's hard for me to not take such snarky statements personally, as I've primarily been posting in off-topic for the last few years, simply due to a combination of really enjoying the off-topic video game chat here, and very rarely coming across on-topic shmup talk that I really have anything to say something about.
That's definitely not to say I don't want to talk about shmups, but there are a lot of subjects that have a tendency to go around and repeat themselves, and a lot of talk is stuff that relates abstractly to the games (releases, collecting, stuff about companies, etc.) while the more direct talk about specific games, strategy and gameplay etc. which is what I was originally here for, has mostly been desolate for a while now - something that, ironically, is going really well on the off-topic section for non-shmup games these days.

But I digress - your suggestion isn't bad, at least not in theory. I'd love to see all the quality off-topic video game talk from this forum bloom into a dedicated community with all the same members, and room to grown into more dedication and a growing user base with a shared interest. It would be fantastic, and definitely the ideal solution. So I really shouldn't take offense from it.

But it's hard to see it happening. If people had to move away from the shmups forum to partake in that stuff, you'd definitely lose a lot of people along the way, and it would fracture a community that as it is is already pretty unstable.
A lot of the best things on this forum have happened organically, and I don't really think you can force that kind of stuff. I don't think there is any need for an incredibly extraneous infrastructure to support stuff that is honestly already supported well, and I like to talk about video games about people who enjoy arcade style shooting games because I know we will share a lot of the same mentality when it comes to video games. And hell, that's not even when talking about similar genres like run'n'gun etc. but right down to RPGs and whatnot. It's really comforting, you know.

I think if we're to give some merit to your idea that off-topic video game and hardware talk is actually damaging to the shmup forum and makes people less likely to partake in the on-topic discussions, but also want to maintain the existing quality off-topic talk (so yeah IMO that means all the politics subjects can go right to hell), I'd say the best thing you could do is maintain the existing community here, keep the same user accounts and central databases, but maintain two different branches of the same forum, but branded in different ways, and presented in a way that lets them interfer with eachother to a lesser degree.
Kinda like Reddit's subreddit structure except without sucking.