Unpopular opinion / Hot take thread - get it off your chest!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Touhou's not even sexualized though, except in fan media. It's just that all the characters happen to be girls in the series. They're perfectly fine games (I'm especially fond of LLS and MS) and don't rise to the pervier focus that games like Saidaioujou or Caladrius Blaze and its "shame breaks" do. It's not just the loli aesthetic I dislike but the inherent creepyness in "powering up by undressing them" thing in SDOJ.

Being a gay guy, I naturally don't have an interest in loli aesthetic anyways.

[Stevens]

Hot Take -

Crisis Wing's bomb is the best ever.

[BurlyHeart]

Hot Take -

Crisis Wing's bomb is the best ever.

Better than Under Defeat? I gotta get this game.

My Hot Take - Shmups on consoles are becoming overly expensive shelf ornaments.

[XoPachi]

My Hot Take - Shmups on consoles are becoming overly expensive shelf ornaments.

[Audible Taito sweating]

[Stevens]

Hot Take -

Crisis Wing's bomb is the best ever.

Better than Under Defeat? I gotta get this game.

Yeah. I think so. If not it's really close.

The skull just looks so damn cool.

[pieslice]

I actually like Bee Storm

[o.pwuaioc]

Hot Take -

Crisis Wing's bomb is the best ever.

Better than Under Defeat? I gotta get this game.

Yeah. I think so. If not it's really close.

The skull just looks so damn cool.

That says a lot coming from you!

[Dawn111]

I find checkpoint shooters to be quite challenging and fair, as long as they implemented fairly. Good checkpoint shooters
like Einhander & most R-Type series still gives me some challenge even if I use continues, because I would have to adapt
and try to dodge incoming obstacles instead of keep dying, credit feed, and finish the game as if I have some god mode.
On the other hand, shooters that takes me all the way back to the beginning of the stage like Super R-Type is just awful.

[Sengoku Strider]

I find checkpoint shooters to be quite challenging and fair, as long as they implemented fairly. Good checkpoint shooters
like Einhander & most R-Type series still gives me some challenge even if I use continues, because I would have to adapt
and try to dodge incoming obstacles instead of keep dying, credit feed, and finish the game as if I have some god mode.
On the other hand, shooters that takes me all the way back to the beginning of the stage like Super R-Type is just awful.

Yeah, I've never really liked it when people use 'Gradius syndrome' as a disqualifier. Fighting your way back from the brink of pea-shooting oblivion is just part of that type of game's challenge, and adds tension as you cling to your powered up ship for dear life. It's only really bad design when it puts you into situations which are all but impossible to navigate due to you being too slow to weave through an initial hail of bullets or not having enough firepower to stop an enemy barreling down on you off the checkpoint.

Even Super R-Type, as annoying as that is, forces you to learn to no-miss a stage to get through. It's the ultimate form of git-gud measuring stick. (I have a copies of both Gradius III & Super R-Type arriving from Suruga-ya next week, I need to stay positive here).

[floralcateyes]

Options that shoot in the opposite direction of motion suck the joy out of shmups. Games like Rolling Gunner or Bike Banditz that make this the main gimmick have no right to exist.

Two of my favorite shmups Curious to hear why you dislike that mechanic.

OT: Obviously wouldn't say it's a better structure overall, but I've come to appreciate shmups that let you tackle individual levels rather than having you go through them all in one run. Been playing Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler, and their individual level based structure doesn't feel like it detracts from the challenge, depth, or fun at all. They're clearly designed around said structure though.

Also been playing Cosmo Dreamer (same dev as Nightmare Trip, etc). Has a story mode where you challenge individual levels and a more traditional single-run arcade mode. I don't like how the latter is locked until you beat the former, but I do enjoy doing quick runs of levels by themselves and can see it being great for people who want a brisk score attack game. Also interesting in that the game does the Touhou thing of giving you lots and lots of extends to make the later stages more manageable, but you don't have that safety net if you jump straight into, say, stage 8.

[trap15]

Options that shoot in the opposite direction of motion suck the joy out of shmups.

I'd extremely rather have it be the opposite direction than the same direction, anyways...

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

On the other hand, shooters that takes me all the way back to the beginning of the stage like Super R-Type is just awful.

I feel like this is, ideally, preferable to the alternative. Starting from the beginning of the level should mean more chances to build up powerups and reduce the chances of getting stonewalled at some particularly nasty part with low power, especially if the game is like Gradius where stages open up with easier bits meant to power you up.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It'd also mean fewer checkpoint recoveries to learn and memorize since you only have 1 per stage. Being sent to the beginning of the stage sounds like it'd suck but if the beginnings of the stages give you a chance to restock it's probably better in practice than a lot of current checkpoint shmups where dying on one particularly bad checkpoint is effectively a game over.

[To Far Away Times]

On the other hand, shooters that takes me all the way back to the beginning of the stage like Super R-Type is just awful.

I feel like this is, ideally, preferable to the alternative. Starting from the beginning of the level should mean more chances to build up powerups and reduce the chances of getting stonewalled at some particularly nasty part with low power, especially if the game is like Gradius where stages open up with easier bits meant to power you up.

I'm not the biggest fan of Super R-Type (why play it over 2 which is way better?) but I actually do like its checkpoint implementation. I'm sure its much easier to design recoveries this way. You don't have to 1 life Super R-Type, where as a 1 life clear feels mandatory in R-Type 1 or 2. In fact, I think I actually recovered from a death in my Super R-Type 1CC. I wouldn't even attempt recoveries if I died late in R-Type 2 or any time after you can't get a second bit in R-Type 1.

[MathU]

I don't really think this take is all that hot, but it really ought to be said already: the prevalence of checkpoints that are impossible to recover from in checkpoint-based shooters as a whole has been grossly exaggerated. From Konami games to IREM games, the original Darius, and even the iconic Gradius III, the occurrence of completely ridiculous to outright impossible recovery points are not nearly as common as their reputations would have you believe. I can recall single-credit clears of my own for both R-Type I and II (on the more challenging JP versions) where I died and recovered in multiple instances, including the final levels for both. Where there's a will, there's a way! And finding that way with a dwindling stock of extra ships left is one of the most satisfying thrills of the checkpoint shooter.

[trap15]

^ Extremely this

[Dawn111]

On the other hand, shooters that takes me all the way back to the beginning of the stage like Super R-Type is just awful.

I feel like this is, ideally, preferable to the alternative. Starting from the beginning of the level should mean more chances to build up powerups and reduce the chances of getting stonewalled at some particularly nasty part with low power, especially if the game is like Gradius where stages open up with easier bits meant to power you up.

Starting from the beginning of the level can actually give the player an advantage by obtaining the all the power-ups he / she
gets to fight the boss, as opposed to Gradius and other R-Type games where you could only get some powerups which makes
it harder to defeat the boss while being only halfway powered. Either way, you still need to survive in order to move onto the
next stage, and going back to the beginning means that you would have to learn to no-miss a stage like Sengoku Strider said.

[StudioMudprints]

Apparently this take was hotter than I thought. It's probably worth repeating here. And I stand by it!

For a long time now, I've been counting rail shooters as "close enough." The way I see it, a rail shooter in the shmup sense is just an STG that has players shoot exclusively into the Z axis.

Slightly off-topic, I also count run-n-gunners like Contra as close enough as well. As far as I'm concerned, they're basically just shmups with gravity, platforms and a genral lack of forced scrolling.

I want to emphasize the use of the word "basically" here, though. Basically =/= literally, obviously.

[trap15]

If the definition of a shooting game is so general what's even the point of the categorization?

[StudioMudprints]

If the definition of a shooting game is so general what's even the point of the categorization?

See? Super hot
I mean, they're obviously - and for the sake of this response, literally - different enough to be called run-n-gunners or rail-shooters and not "shmups" but they're still, like... "close enough."

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I mean, they're obviously - and for the sake of this response, literally - different enough to be called run-n-gunners or rail-shooters and not "shmups" but they're still, like... "close enough."

This is not a logically consistent statement. You can't have it both ways; either you accept from an intellectual standpoint that trying to work with better categorization is good, or it isn't. The "close enough" thing is just an appeal to emotion and doesn't hold weight.

As I've said in the other thread, I don't see why it'd be a bad thing for run 'n guns, or rail shooters/3d shmups to get a subforum here as there is enough genre overlap and interest round here that it wouldn't go unappreciated. There's also not, as far as I know, a forum elsewhere dedicated to run 'n guns or rail shooters/3D shmups specifically, so the forum owner might well be open to subforums to give them a home here. Still wouldn't make them 2D shmups, though.

[StudioMudprints]

As I've said in the other thread, I don't see why it'd be a bad thing for run 'n guns, or rail shooters/3d shmups to get a subforum here as there is enough genre overlap and interest round here that it wouldn't go unappreciated. There's also not, as far as I know, a forum elsewhere dedicated to run 'n guns or rail shooters/3D shmups specifically, so the forum owner might well be open to subforums to give them a home here. Still wouldn't make them 2D shmups, though.

I'm 100% in support of this.

[Sengoku Strider]

I only came to these games this year, so maybe that colours my opinion, but I have the Shot Triggers version of Esp.Ra De and I think that game blows Dodonpachi out of the water. Part of that comparison is unfair because Esp has added voice work, and I know the original version was looked down on due to scoring exploits. But its base scoring mechanics still seem flat out more interesting, it has better sound design and just way more personality. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about DDP, but I'm also not sure where the continued top 5 shooter reverence comes from.

[pieslice]

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about DDP, but I'm also not sure where the continued top 5 shooter reverence comes from.

It's frigging good game!

[Sumez]

As I've said in the other thread, I don't see why it'd be a bad thing for run 'n guns, or rail shooters/3d shmups to get a subforum here as there is enough genre overlap and interest round here that it wouldn't go unappreciated. There's also not, as far as I know, a forum elsewhere dedicated to run 'n guns or rail shooters/3D shmups specifically, so the forum owner might well be open to subforums to give them a home here.

The R2RKMF thread needs its own subforum

Well, I'd agree completely with your statement if I weren't opposed to separating discussions into subforums in the first place. It doesn't really serve much of a purpose unless you're able to actively filter out stuff you aren't interested i (as opposed to the other way around, which is the only way they work on phpbb).

A category tagging system would be way more effective, allowing a thread to fit itself into multiple categories whenever it fits.

[BIL]

While I'm fine with things the way they are, I appreciate the occasional requests for an "Off Topic Gaming" subforum. No need to split hairs, just whatever's not on-topic in here. A couple of quality posters have mentioned they'd like to get OT's gaming content without having to see other stuff (namely the political shitbirding, which I'm kinda partial to ).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'd also like to see a split so if you don't want to see the various drama/political threads and just the non-shmup gaming stuff there's a spot for it. I'd be all for it.

[Sengoku Strider]

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about DDP, but I'm also not sure where the continued top 5 shooter reverence comes from.

It's frigging good game!

It sure is, but it's also a hugely influential one which Cave themselves and much of the industry have spent a couple of decades iterating on.

[Stevens]

I'd also like to see a split so if you don't want to see the various drama/political threads and just the non-shmup gaming stuff there's a spot for it. I'd be all for it.

Agree with this.

[Plasmo]

Why not close Off Topic altogether and focus fully on shmups again? There are many other places where you can discuss "retro gaming".