[SOLVED] Extron 109XI woes. Noob, please help!

[grumpygamer]

Hi all, I have been lurking around for a while now and really intrigued by this retro gaming experience on CRT so I got myself a Trinitron and an Extron 109XI with the idea to hook it up to my laptop (VGA output) and with that output the 640 x 480 @ 60Hz via the Custom Resolution Utility.

Diagram (spartan LOL) as follows:

Laptop (VGA) -> Extron input (on the front) -> Extron bnc output (RGB + CSYNC) -> CRT TV

VGA seems to work fine (tested on LCD TV) but when I connect the extron and test that with the LCD via SCART nothing displays.

I am taking it the extron uses VGA info to create the RGB+CSYNC signals?

The display on the front reads H31.31k and V59.9Hz.

Obvs I am a noob dad, but my idea was to hook up MAME for the kids to play on the old television!

If someone could advise I would be really greatful, my kids will too! LOL

[strayan]

I’m assuming you have a Trinitron 15khz TV not Trinitron 31 khz monitor. If so you need to run your signal through a downscan converter like an Extron VSC500 first.

[kitty666cats]

CRT Emudriver may be of more help to you, depending on your GPU - may potentially not even need the Extron as CRTE can be set for composite sync out! However, the Extron interface may help greatly if you run into any sync wonky-ness

[grumpygamer]

OK, so yes I have a trinitron TV
Even after reading hours about this stuff I can't really wrap my head around it so I end up chucking cash to solutions that don't work
Do you think I'd be better off selling the 109Xi and getting a different unit?
But I still don't understand what's wrong with this unit (LOL), it's getting a vga signal and transforming it to rgb + csync...

To re-iterate what unit would you think I should buy? Ideally I would like a one-device solution if possible!

[Fatass]

What model crt trinitron are you using exactly? And what connections are you using to connect it to your extron? You mentioned you're using the bnc out from the extron, how is it feeding into your crt? Via a bnc-scart connector?

Having no image could be a variety of things from your model of crt being 15khz only or the bnc to scart adapter not having voltage on the right pins to enable rgb mode.

[grumpygamer]

Thanks for the reply. I am using the Trinitron KV-M2141 Chassis be2a

Link to service manual:
https://elektrotanya.com/sony_kv-m1921_ ... nload.html

I am hooking the extron at the back with some BNC cable to scart (female) and then from that to a male-male scart to the crt TV.
Does that help?

[Fatass]

I downloaded and had a look at the service manual. You have a standard definition trinitron with scart, composite and svideo inputs. Which means it only accepts normal sd (15khz rgb + composite sync) signals thru scart and can't display PC vga (31khz rgb+separate hori+vert sync) . Even if you found adapters to yoke it together Ur TV won't display anything since the actual signal frequency is too high.

You may also need a device to add voltage on some pins in your bnc to scart cable which will actually prompt your TV to enter rgb mode. Note some TV's don't need this but many do.

One more thing. You need to also be sure of the direction of your bnc to scart (female head) cable, ie is it wired for bnc leading to scart or is it vice versa. Confusing I know. Scart is not always bidirectional and that can add to the overall confusion.

This is what I'd do. Depending on the video card of your pc/laptop perhaps I'd try the soft 15khz program to force Ur PC's 31khz into 15khz (read up on whether it's safe for your pc first). I've no experience with crtemudriver but if it claims to achieve 15khz+csync on Ur pc then perhaps that'll do too

If u still get nothing you might need voltage on certain pins. I'd use a bnc to vga cable + stereo speaker to RCA combo to hook Ur extron to an arcadeforge UMSA (w/ power supply hooked to it) , that provides the right voltage on scart pins for rgb mode.

Tbh unless I'm trying to convert RGsB or fiddling with the centering knobs, I'd just omit the extron altogether and just feed a vga cable from my pc straight to the UMSA.

[kitty666cats]

I’d suggest hanging onto the Extron, they are handy little units! It does seem like you are sending 640x480 - progressive - to your TV, whereas you’d want such a signal to be interlaced (if there’s a box you can check). Try doing some Google-Fu on CRT Emudriver and finding some tutorials, perhaps a video tutorial... I think it was a video tutorial that really helped me finally figure that program out, then you’ll be able to rock 480i/240p as well, whereas a scan converter would leave you stuck with 480i

You’ll get it squared away! Some of the dip switches on the Extron should help you in the event u get any flagging/warping at the top or corner of the screen

[grumpygamer]

Hey thanks for the reply and taking the time to look at my issue!

I don't have an AMD Card unfortunately, but it seems I can set a custom resolution via the Nvidia control panel for the secondary output (EXTRON), but
because I still don't understand what this extron is supposed to do (it's obvs not a downscaler) I am not sure what resolution to set it to.

Then I found this post of a guy trying to do the same thing and he makes it seem like a piece of cake!
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... extron_to/

I THINK I am on the right track, but possibly need a bit of pointing in the right direction?
Also good point about the cable.
Looking at the schematic of the SCART plug there doesn't seem to be a 2 way route for rgb and sync, only one (set) of pins.

I bought that BNC -> SCART from Coolnovelties who should specialise in this kind of equipment.

I'm going to try and force the 15khz now from vga to extron and see if that works
Thanks again! So appreciated that you guys answer me!

[Kez]

The extron is for sync processing essentially. It can convert RGBHV (VGA) to RGBS (which is what SCART TVs take). It can fix some quirky sync issues like warping.

What it can't do is change your resolution. Your PC needs to be putting out 240p, or you need to downscale it.

SCART RGB video is directional but only for sync. If memory serves, it switches between pin 19 and 20 depending on direction.

[grumpygamer]

Oh great! Thanks very much for the information!
What a bummer for the sync pin I checked on pinouts and sure enough VIN and VOUT, that must be it!
I will solder it properly to the other pin (I will make an interface if that makes sense rather than opening the cable up)
Now one thing I don't understand:
I set my pc to output 240p it seems to work because the extron changes the values.
The values though are wrong!

Settings

Spoiler

Extron

Spoiler

Any idea to what that could be?
Thank you very much.

[Kez]

I have no personal experience with this so could be way off, but 320x240 may be below your minimum output res? You could try increasing your horizontal resolution, like 1920x240 or something.

[grumpygamer]

hmm even with the CRU?
OK I will try and then post back soon.
Thanks

[kitty666cats]

AFAIK coolnovelties doesn’t carry a male BNC to male SCART... are you using their female SCART to male BNC cable? If so, part of your issue lies there.

Their ZX Spectrum NEXT cable would work for you (uses standard RGBS pinout), would just need a 4BNC to female VGA for output from your Extron

[grumpygamer]

Yes I use one of those cables. LOL no one else sold them!
Anyway I swapped VIN and VOUT by redirecting pin 20 to pin 19 and now at least I get some form of life on the crt.



I guess this is as good as it gets until I figure out how to properly set the res?
Bed now and will continue tomorrow

Edit: well at least I see some changes now when I change parameters on the CRU and in some cases the EXTRON displays the correct information
15khz
60hz

still no image though.

[grumpygamer]

I am bumping this as I have had some more developments.

I changed the video card and am now using a HD5450 with CRT Emudriver.

Here's the current crude diagram

PC (HD5450) -> Extron - > BNC Cable -> CRT TV.

Now the EXTRON always displays the correct frequencies of 15kHz and 59.9Hz.

CRT Displays nothing (black screen with white noise)
If I attach the SCART to the LCD I get a completely white screen (LOL)

Bit unsure of what is going on.
Seems I should skip the EXTRON all together, but I don't have a VGA to SCART cable.

Also how would I combine the SYNCS if I did that?
What do you guys think? Is it the EXTRON not working? Might it still be the cable?

I don't know what further steps to take right now.


P.S. Some old thread with a similar problem never resolved:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60553

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: here's how the cable I bought is mapped out to the SCART connector


Now I'm thinking it might just be a polarity issue with the signal?

[grumpygamer]

Bumping the thread again, as I just found out on a different CRT this is happening



You can clearly see the windows desktop in the menu background

Very interesting!
So I think the EXTRON is working, but it's sending the signal to the wrong place.

[Fatass]

That last image is weird. Is it squished or just part of the windows background? And are the colours correct or off.?

If you lived close to me (south Australia) I would have brought my arcade forge UMSA to your place and tested it to see if it's a fault stemming from on your bnc-scart cable.

UMSA usually corrects some (note: some) of the problems when trying to convert anything vga related into scart. The only thing it doesn't do is turn 31khz into 15khz but as you're running crtemudriver I'm guessing thats solved for now. Umsa accepts vga + stereo rca connections, combines the sync, adds voltage on some pin needed for rgb mode (16?8?) and outputs it via scart.

Also, are you running groovy mame?

Failing that I haven't the foggiest, maybe try a video card that offers s-video out? Some display cards had this way back in the day, the quality is only a little worse than rgb but still better than composite.

[grumpygamer]

Thanks for you input!

Well that is the windows background showing through the OSD menu background only.
Proper weird.

Colours seem fine as so do the proportions (for what I can tell), so it just seems that somehow the signal is reaching the OSD display trace.
I am a bit clueless right now, but thanks for your offer! If you want to pop-over by airplane I'll get you a beer

Edit: so I think I've figured out what's wrong (in theory only for now): I am missing 1-3V on pin 16 to enable RGB on the TV.
I will try and see if that solves it, though unsure of how to plug that voltage in.

[grumpygamer]

OK I am bumping this thread as it is finally working.
Turns out there was voltage missing on pin 16 to turn the RGB on.
Tested with a battery and it's green lights!
Thanks all!

[kitty666cats]

OK I am bumping this thread as it is finally working.
Turns out there was voltage missing on pin 16 to turn the RGB on.
Tested with a battery and it's green lights!
Thanks all!

Happy for ya! I sold all my Extron units, but I am now in a situation where I could benefit from 15kHz RGBHV yet again - eyeing either the 109xi OR the lesser-known 164xi: similar unit, but with TWO processed outputs

[grumpygamer]

I am now thinking of stacking 2xscreens for game as punchout.
Is there an Extron with 2xinputs and 2xoutputs?
I never heard the 164xi!

[Fudoh]

the 164 is just a splitter, so one input, two outputs with the same signal.