HD CRT TVs always display at 540P?

[nes.og]

Is it true that HD CRT TVs always display at 540P?

If correct does this mean that 1080i is actually deinterlaced and scaled to 540P?

These TVs don’t actually display 1080i using 1080 lines with two interlaced 540 line fields?

[FinalBaton]

Is it true that HD CRT TVs always display at 540P?

If correct does this mean that 1080i is actually deinterlaced and scaled to 540P?

These TVs don’t actually display 1080i using 1080 lines with two interlaced 540 line fields?

1080i and 540p are the same resolution (same scan rate), the tube is just either alternating odd/even scanline every other frame(or ''filed'' in this case), or performing a ''double strike'' in 540p mode always showing the same line every frame.

[nes.og]

Thanks for your response. If it’s true they are always display at 540P then I wouldn’t think any double strike because there are no visible scanlines.

[FinalBaton]

I think they're there, you just don't see them very well since they're packed real close together (more than twice closer than 240p, and even closer than 480p).

Remember that these sets display at 1080i in most cases, so maybe what you're looking at right now is a 1080i picture. there's just a minority of cases where it will display a 540p picture instead
For the Sony ones, there's IIRC just one instance where it displays at 540p, and it's when displaying 480p content (480p windowboxed in 540p frame). Maybe there's one other instance but I couldn't say for sure. 720p sources are displayed at 1080i and 1080i sources at 1080i too of course. I don't remember how 240p and 480i sources are handled.

[Downcry]

These TVs absolutely are displaying native 1080i.

The only time they MIGHT display 540p is if the input source is 480p or lower.
Depends on the set, sometimes you can choose how they handle low resolution content.
They sometimes give you an option for "Progressive" or "Interlaced"; they will never use the term "540p".

If you have a device that can output 540p, the set will display it correctly at native 540p. (My XBR960 does at least)

[Osirus]

I have a Toshiba RP CRT that has a 540p/1080i option in the menu.

[nes.og]

Thanks for the info guys. FinalBaton must be correct about the double strike method to achieve 540P. Do all resolutions except 1080i automatically scale to 540P? Meaning the 1080i/540P option is just available for 1080i content? Maybe depends on the HD CRT TV and some don’t have that option?

[FinalBaton]

What make/model tv do you have?

[nes.og]

I’m looking at picking up a free Phillips 32PT9100D.

https://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/32PT9100D_37B/-

The service manual notes everything is converted to 1080i

https://elektrotanya.com/philips_chassi ... nload.html

Doing further research it appears the chip in the TV is a XILLEON 210VC by ATI but I’m unable to find any specific info on it.

I was under the impression that all HD CRT TVs do at least some 540P but perhaps this is one only does 1080i?

[Guspaz]

Just keep in mind that these are all digital displays with a digital processing/scaling video pipeline just like a flatpanel LCD/Plasma/OLED. They'll add latency so there is no reason/advantage to use an HD CRT over an OLED unless cost is a factor or you really like the visual aesthetic, in which case PC CRTs are arguably better since they can still direct-drive the beam from the video input with no lag. They're just usually not as big.

[nes.og]

Thanks for your input. I’m aware of the digital processing but don’t think it will be an issue since I’m interested in just using it for older 480P console games and maybe 240P with a good line doubler. Maybe even the Wii may upscale 240P games from the Virtual Console with decent quality.

[strayan]

Just keep in mind that these are all digital displays with a digital processing/scaling video pipeline just like a flatpanel LCD/Plasma/OLED. They'll add latency so there is no reason/advantage to use an HD CRT over an OLED unless cost is a factor or you really like the visual aesthetic, in which case PC CRTs are arguably better since they can still direct-drive the beam from the video input with no lag. They're just usually not as big.

How is HDCRT defined?

[azmun]

Just keep in mind that these are all digital displays with a digital processing/scaling video pipeline just like a flatpanel LCD/Plasma/OLED. They'll add latency so there is no reason/advantage to use an HD CRT over an OLED unless cost is a factor or you really like the visual aesthetic, in which case PC CRTs are arguably better since they can still direct-drive the beam from the video input with no lag. They're just usually not as big.

How is HDCRT defined?

I'd define em as those tube televisions capable of displaying 525p or 1080i usually in a widescreen format. Not the best for consoles that output 240p and 480i natively (horrible input lag) but ideal for Xbox 360 (and most likely PS3) games that have the majority of their games run close to those set's native resolutions with no noticeable input lag.

[strayan]

Well then I have a Philips HDCRT that is lag free at 480p and 1080i and also handles 240p correctly with no lag. Unless my Time Sleuth is lying to me.

[nes.og]

Just keep in mind that these are all digital displays with a digital processing/scaling video pipeline just like a flatpanel LCD/Plasma/OLED. They'll add latency so there is no reason/advantage to use an HD CRT over an OLED unless cost is a factor or you really like the visual aesthetic, in which case PC CRTs are arguably better since they can still direct-drive the beam from the video input with no lag. They're just usually not as big.

How is HDCRT defined?

Faster horizontal scan rate then SD CRT TV: 33.75KHz opposed to 15.7KHz because more lines to resolve in the 60Hz vertical scan.

[nes.og]

Well then I have a Philips HDCRT that is lag free at 480p and 1080i and also handles 240p correctly with no lag. Unless my Time Sleuth is lying to me.

What model is it? Thanks.

[Guspaz]

Well then I have a Philips HDCRT that is lag free at 480p and 1080i and also handles 240p correctly with no lag. Unless my Time Sleuth is lying to me.

Is it lag free as in it's just not adding any appreciable delay, or lag free as in its drawing the scanlines as they come in over the video cable like an SD CRT does? The distinction there is relevant since it means something for things like lightguns.

Maybe it's not universally true. Most HD CRT televisions will scale everything to either 540p or 1080i, so they're also going to soften 480p quite a bit.

[strayan]

Well then I have a Philips HDCRT that is lag free at 480p and 1080i and also handles 240p correctly with no lag. Unless my Time Sleuth is lying to me.

Is it lag free as in it's just not adding any appreciable delay, or lag free as in its drawing the scanlines as they come in over the video cable like an SD CRT does? The distinction there is relevant since it means something for things like lightguns.

Maybe it's not universally true. Most HD CRT televisions will scale everything to either 540p or 1080i, so they're also going to soften 480p quite a bit.

It draws the scanlines when displaying 15khz content and measures 7.39ms (at the middle of the screen) when displaying 480p or 1080i content. This is the set http://www.avbuzz.com/PhilipsPixelPlus2 ... lus29P.htm

[maxtherabbit]

Maybe it's not universally true.

It certainly is not. There are many HDCRTs that scan out 480p and or 1080i/540p directly without any lag. This whole canard is a result of the behaviour of sony HDCRTs specifically, and is not representative of the whole genre.

[Josh128]

I’m looking at picking up a free Phillips 32PT9100D.

https://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/32PT9100D_37B/-

The service manual notes everything is converted to 1080i

https://elektrotanya.com/philips_chassi ... nload.html

Doing further research it appears the chip in the TV is a XILLEON 210VC by ATI but I’m unable to find any specific info on it.

I was under the impression that all HD CRT TVs do at least some 540P but perhaps this is one only does 1080i?

Just be aware that at least one model Philips HD CRT can not handle 240p over composite or component. I had a set, it was a 32" flat tube Philips, that displayed 240p content fed through it at 10fps or so. It was the same whether I used composite, component, or SVideo. Otherwise the image was great. There was nothing I could do about it. I even contacted Philips and they told me the set wasnt designed to accept 240p and it blew my mind. Extremely strange.

I dont remember the exact model number but if this is the set, you'll see the issue real quick, lol.

[BazookaBen]

Maybe it's not universally true.

It certainly is not. There are many HDCRTs that scan out 480p and or 1080i/540p directly without any lag. This whole canard is a result of the behaviour of sony HDCRTs specifically, and is not representative of the whole genre.

The problem is, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there on exactly what they do.

For Sony's CRT's on the other hand, there were tons of threads of on AVSFroum back in the day where people were running tests to figure this stuff out. Maybe there is some information out there about how the Philips, Samsung, JVC sets operate, but it seems harder to find.

[maxtherabbit]

Maybe it's not universally true.

It certainly is not. There are many HDCRTs that scan out 480p and or 1080i/540p directly without any lag. This whole canard is a result of the behaviour of sony HDCRTs specifically, and is not representative of the whole genre.

The problem is, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there on exactly what they do.

For Sony's CRT's on the other hand, there were tons of threads of on AVSFroum back in the day where people were running tests to figure this stuff out. Maybe there is some information out there about how the Philips, Samsung, JVC sets operate, but it seems harder to find.

Well I'd like to see people stop repeating misleading information and do some real testing then. I have a Samsung set I've personally tested to be lag free at both 1080i and 480p. Home lag testing is more accessible now than ever before. There's the bodnar, time sluth, OSSC, etc.

[BazookaBen]

Well I'd like to see people stop repeating misleading information and do some real testing then. I have a Samsung set I've personally tested to be lag free at both 1080i and 480p. Home lag testing is more accessible now than ever before. There's the bodnar, time sluth, OSSC, etc.

So the top of the screen reported near 0ms?

What about in 4:3 vs 16:9 modes?

[maxtherabbit]

Well I'd like to see people stop repeating misleading information and do some real testing then. I have a Samsung set I've personally tested to be lag free at both 1080i and 480p. Home lag testing is more accessible now than ever before. There's the bodnar, time sluth, OSSC, etc.

So the top of the screen reported near 0ms?

What about in 4:3 vs 16:9 modes?

Yes. It doesn't have an aspect control, all modes fill the screen IIRC