Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emulated

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Lawfer
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Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emulated

Post by Lawfer »

Pretty lazy ports. Super Mario 64 is windowboxed, Super Mario Sunshine is the minimal amount of effort to the extent it's comical. During one of the first scenes when you are getting instruction from FLUD on how to use him they didn't bother changing any dialog they just removed the part when he says the buttons name. So instead of press the Z button it's press the *pause* button. Just one example I noticed in 30 mins or so of gameplay.
Mario 64 and Sunshine are emulated with on the fly runtime texture replacement, and Galaxy is CPU native and GPU and sound emulated.

64 runs in a windowbox (black bars on all four sides of the screen).

Sunshine is 30 FPS. At least the movies looked like they were rendered in higher resolution. (720p)

Galaxy is the only decent one here. Pro Controller uses gyro for pointer functionality. Right stick for camera.
It appears all the games are emulated.

Galaxy and Sunshine run under a Wii and GameCube emulator named "hagi"(?) possibly made by NERD (Nintendo of Europe division).

All games have changes made to them. Shindou Mario 64 has been translated to English (and slightly texture hacked), Sunshine had 16:9 aspect ratio added to the ROM, and FMVs were made 720p.

Mario 64 is running under an N64 emulator. Dunno which.

About the All Stars N64 emulator:

- Shindou Pack ROM is used (no BLJ for you).

- Texture, code, and text translation patches are applied on the fly (interestingly, first person camera has inverted controls vs original).

- Oddly, also uses Vulkan API?

Interestingly, the code patches are done through Lua. The emulator takes over execution upon/after reaching a certain PC address and transfers control to a Lua script.

Also, whoever made the emulator configuration file made a typo. They spelled the word cannon as "canoe".

Sunshine GCM file does have some patches applied. For example, the FMVs are removed because they are added in by the emulator. 16:9 support is also added.

Galaxy in particular is really interesting. It appears they recompiled the original code to run natively on the Switch CPU, but everything else (GPU/Audio) is running in the emulator.

Interesting trick!
juji82
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by juji82 »

japanese programmers at their best :mrgreen:
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Lawfer
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Lawfer »

juji82 wrote:japanese programmers at their best :mrgreen:
Well actually it seems to be a Nintendo European Research & Development work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgK4siZzepI
Fans: We'll make a native PC port of Mario 64 and then port that to the Switch
Nintendo: Just dump some ROMS, charge em $60, and make it available for a limited time
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by ASDR »

Sunshine GCM file does have some patches applied. For example, the FMVs are removed because they are added in by the emulator. 16:9 support is also added.
16:9 support = cutting off the top & bottom :D

My theory is that Nintendo is simply skipping 2020. Covid hit them really hard, MS & Sony are launching new consoles and they decided to simply peace out. Think about their release schedule this year. They have *nothing* announced for the holidays. Their only big game, Animal Crossing, was only released this year due to a delay. And this release is about as lazy and bare bones as it gets. Three emulated games with some minimal tweaks and enhancements. Their sales are great, why should they break their backs and go head-to-head with MS & Sony this year, just peace out, keep working on some good games and launch a Switch 4k next year when this whole mess is over.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Sumez »

ASDR wrote: My theory is that Nintendo is simply skipping 2020.
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Josh128
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Josh128 »

Im actually surprised the SM Sunshine FMV was re-done in a higher resolution-- thats actually cool because I bought the original upon release and its FMV was pretty badly compressed even then. Surprised they took the time to do that.

On a side note, I recently picked up a very nice WiiU with SM3D World and I must say its very fun and 3-4 player is one of the most hectic experiences Ive played. Its more fun with more people, but stands well on its own as a single player game too, and its pretty stunning to boot. Sad they didnt include that in this All-Stars, its sorely missing I think.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Konsolkongen »

3D World is getting it's own separate re-release = more money for Nintendo :)
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Lawfer
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Lawfer »

Josh128 wrote:On a side note, I recently picked up a very nice WiiU with SM3D World and I must say its very fun and 3-4 player is one of the most hectic experiences Ive played. Its more fun with more people, but stands well on its own as a single player game too, and its pretty stunning to boot. Sad they didnt include that in this All-Stars, its sorely missing I think.
They didn't include it because they are releasing it separately next year for 60 bucks: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08H9M7LDY/
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Extrems »

Josh128 wrote:Im actually surprised the SM Sunshine FMV was re-done in a higher resolution-- thats actually cool because I bought the original upon release and its FMV was pretty badly compressed even then. Surprised they took the time to do that.
They weren't. They very obviously applied machine learning.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by orange808 »

Emulated Mario games aren't hardware.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by nmalinoski »

I don't know first-hand, but I've been reading that the GameCube controllers via the USB adapter will be recognized as Switch Pro Controllers, not GameCube controllers, so you wouldn't be able to use the analog triggers in Sunshine.

I've not played more than maybe 30 mins on Sunshine, but, according to one commenter on Kotaku, the loss of analog triggers with this release makes the Shadow Mario chase sequences more difficult, because you can't finely control the output.

I think I'd rather play the version that controls better and looks worse than the one that controls worse and looks better.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by ASDR »

orange808 wrote:Emulated Mario games aren't hardware.
I can see paying Nintendo for actually porting the game and adding content, fixing design flaws in the older games, but this? Might as well just emulate it on a PC.
nmalinoski wrote:I don't know first-hand, but I've been reading that the GameCube controllers via the USB adapter will be recognized as Switch Pro Controllers, not GameCube controllers, so you wouldn't be able to use the analog triggers in Sunshine.

I've not played more than maybe 30 mins on Sunshine, but, according to one commenter on Kotaku, the loss of analog triggers with this release makes the Shadow Mario chase sequences more difficult, because you can't finely control the output.

I think I'd rather play the version that controls better and looks worse than the one that controls worse and looks better.
That's true for Sunshine, also some issues with Galaxy. The pointer functionality from the Wii is only emulated through a gyro, which of course means it drifts over times and will have to be reset. Again working better on original hardware.

This is just a minimum effort cash grab since they had to do 'something' this year. And they already said this collection will only be on sale until March 31st next year, maybe they know this is not the definitive version of these games?
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Guspaz »

Emulated versus native is a completely irrelevant technical detail from the player's perspective. How does it look, how does it play, how well does it run. That's all people care about. It seems like Nintendo has done the absolute bare minimum needed to justify charging a retail price for this. No more, no less. They're better than just straight up virtual console releases, but never really go the extra mile.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Taiyaki »

3D World is going to be the good release (I hope). The original was fantastic on Wii U. Arguably the best Mario since Mario 64 (and now dethroned by Odyssey imo).
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by strygo »

Very disappointed in this. I remember how exciting and magical the original All-Stars was when first highlighted in Nintendo Power. It managed to dramatically level up the experience of the featured games, included an experience that (at the time) was truly foreign, all the while preserving the controls and "feel" of the games.

Although I preordered this (shame on me) - my view is that Nintendo truly dropped the ball here.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by fernan1234 »

This is a good example of why I don't believe in "enhanced" "ports" of old games. My rule of thumb is just to always play the original.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by bigbadboaz »

Wouldn't be a good example at all since the point is they really didn't enhance them.

If they had done a proper job on this we wouldn't have this thread and very few people would be running back to the originals.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by orange808 »

strygo wrote:Very disappointed in this. I remember how exciting and magical the original All-Stars was when first highlighted in Nintendo Power. It managed to dramatically level up the experience of the featured games, included an experience that (at the time) was truly foreign, all the while preserving the controls and "feel" of the games.

Although I preordered this (shame on me) - my view is that Nintendo truly dropped the ball here.
If that's what people believe, then the only way to "not drop the ball" was to abandon the project entirely. They could never release a compilation of high quality remakes at a marketable price point. This was always obviously emulation. People with experience in game development could have told you so instantly.

I agree Nintendo may have been able to do a little more, but not much.

Porting NES assembler to the SNES was a smaller undertaking by multiple orders of magnitude. Super Mario All Stars was significantly easier to make. The biggest expense back then was probably the game design. Things have changed.

Making a few new sprites and porting a little assembler is nothing compared to remastering these monster games. Think about it.

Want a bump in the visuals? Think through the amount of work it takes to model, texture, and rig new assets for every one of these games! That alone would break the budget!

Obviously, you can't just write a new game engine to support the entire project and try to get "close enough". Yes, it's written in C dialect. So? Object oriented C dialects aren't a magic bullet. The differences in hardware require almost entire rewrites! These programs are huge and each one will need special attention. You're not just porting from one machine to another. The original sources are based on multiple different original platforms!


Could all the original games run on a VM that emulated all the underlying hardware, hosted all new assets, and hit frame rate? Maybe in our dreams, but not on Switch. So, there goes that idea.

Many of the people that coded those NES titles were still in house when SMBAS was made. They knew the code and both machines intimately. They were also a smaller team and they were working just a few years after the originals were made. The same teams had worked together on the NES and SNES. Nintendo could not possibly have that much organizational memory and mastery on staff for this project. The entire team that made Super Mario 64 isn't in house and they don't have the details fairly fresh in their minds.

Even with their advantages, the first SMB on SMBAS is completely unplayable rubbish due to the collision bug. (Can you imagine the bugs we would get with these huge programs?) SMB3 doesn't have the same amount of visible vertical screen real estate and it affects interactions with lakitu; the results are inaccurate.

Of course it's emulated. A real collection of remasters would be too expensive to produce; people wouldn't pay the retail cost Nintendo would need to charge.

It's not a hobby. It's a business.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Josh128 »

Taiyaki wrote:3D World is going to be the good release (I hope). The original was fantastic on Wii U. Arguably the best Mario since Mario 64 (and now dethroned by Odyssey imo).
Its great, and the multiplayer aspect makes it even better, but dont forget Galaxy 2. IMO it fixes everything annoying about the already fantastic Galaxy 1 and adds a bunch of fun stuff. Its certainly up there with 3D World and 64, and I think it gets overlooked sometimes because its hit on the same system as the original Galaxy.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Taiyaki »

Josh128 wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:3D World is going to be the good release (I hope). The original was fantastic on Wii U. Arguably the best Mario since Mario 64 (and now dethroned by Odyssey imo).
Its great, and the multiplayer aspect makes it even better, but dont forget Galaxy 2. IMO it fixes everything annoying about the already fantastic Galaxy 1 and adds a bunch of fun stuff. Its certainly up there with 3D World and 64, and I think it gets overlooked sometimes because its hit on the same system as the original Galaxy.
I have to admit I skipped that one. I wasn't crazy about Sunshine but Galaxy was good. I'll have to try Galaxy 2 sometime.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Thomago »

orange808 wrote:They could never release a compilation of high quality remakes at a marketable price point. This was always obviously emulation. People with experience in game development could have told you so instantly.
Yet other companies are doing exactly what you say is impossible. Just look at the Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy. Not only is it a complete remake with modern quality assets, it is also offered at only $40.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Lawfer »

Thomago wrote:You say that, yet other companies are doing exactly what you say is impossible. Just look at the Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy. Not only is it a complete remake with modern quality assets, it is also offered at only $40.
Also Spyro Reignited Trilogy.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by orange808 »

Thomago wrote:
orange808 wrote:They could never release a compilation of high quality remakes at a marketable price point. This was always obviously emulation. People with experience in game development could have told you so instantly.
Yet other companies are doing exactly what you say is impossible. Just look at the Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy. Not only is it a complete remake with modern quality assets, it is also offered at only $40.
Different audiences. Different expectations. Different source material.

Also, I remember Crash Bandicoot as a simple "on rails" game with somewhat muddy controls.

People seem to take the inaccuracies and idiosyncrasies of that release in stride. Would they do the same with a Mario game?

I'll stop here.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by BazookaBen »

I'm glad Nintendo isn't "remastering" anything though. These games are great as they are. Changing assets, lighting, models, will only fuck with the original feel of the games.

I'm glad new generations of Nintendo kids get to experience these games as we did.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by orange808 »

Lawfer wrote:
Thomago wrote:You say that, yet other companies are doing exactly what you say is impossible. Just look at the Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy. Not only is it a complete remake with modern quality assets, it is also offered at only $40.
Also Spyro Reignited Trilogy.
See my post above.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by orange808 »

Wowzers!

30fps consistently! :mrgreen:

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/62387/cr ... index.html

Can Nintendo ship the newer Mario titles chugging along like that?
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by orange808 »

Thank you for articulating exactly why a high profile Mario remake could never ever meet expectations with your neogaf-esque image post in an off topic discussion.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Guspaz »

orange808 wrote:Obviously, you can't just write a new game engine to support the entire project and try to get "close enough". Yes, it's written in C dialect. So? Object oriented C dialects aren't a magic bullet. The differences in hardware require almost entire rewrites! These programs are huge and each one will need special attention. You're not just porting from one machine to another. The original sources are based on multiple different original platforms!
Considering that Mario 64 was decompiled back to C by a small team and then ported to Windows and DirectX 12 by one person (running at 60 FPS at widescreen resolutions) in their spare time, it was absolutely feasible for Nintendo, having the original C code, to have ported the game to another platform (which they control) with their team of people doing it full-time. It's not a large codebase and it wasn't a big port.
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Re: Apparently All Games in Mario 3D All-Stars Are Just Emul

Post by Osirus »

Lawfer wrote:
Thomago wrote:You say that, yet other companies are doing exactly what you say is impossible. Just look at the Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy. Not only is it a complete remake with modern quality assets, it is also offered at only $40.
Also Spyro Reignited Trilogy.
And Ratchet & Clank.
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