Well, I was just wondering whether or not doujin circles had to pay Microsoft royalty fees for developing and distributing their games on Windows, since if they don't, that's pretty awesome.
I find it disturbing you call that "awesome" because it´s been the same since home computers were invented in the first place. Nowadays, Microsoft may dream of a world where nothing but commercial software exists, but in the past the formula has always rather worked like this:
"The more software there is for any given OS, the more successful that OS will be". So it wouldn´t be very wise for any OS developer to ask for license fees, because it would just drive away all the free software developers, causing the respective OS to become obsolete within a few years. And if Microsoft thinks that formula doesn´t apply to them anymore, that only goes to show how far entrenched their almost-monopoly already is. Still, it wouldn´t work without making sure any open source OS has become completely obsolete and forbidding to develop new ones. Business companies may buy computers just to have one software running on them, so they don´t care too much whether that one piece of software is expensive, cheap or free. But home users don´t plan to buy all sorts of tools and utilities to have a versatile machine when buying a PC, instead they expect it to be versatile from the start.
A lot of good discussion here. Without repeating any of that, another big factor for me is this: In the US, Metal Slug 3 came out on the Xbox. Metal Slug 3 did not come out on PS2. That's just one example of course, but there are others -- examples of Sony (of America) preventing me from playing the games I want to play.
I have no interest in PC games or PC politics. However, I have a big interest in what gets released on consoles. Sony (of America)'s console policies are a big part of why I have no interest in supporting them, even though the PS3 will be region-free. That's why I bought a Japanese PS2 and PSP
Unfortunately, at such a high price, I doubt I'll get a Japanese PS3.
Zigfried the Trizealot wrote:A lot of good discussion here. Without repeating any of that, another big factor for me is this: In the US, Metal Slug 3 came out on the Xbox. Metal Slug 3 did not come out on PS2. That's just one example of course, but there are others -- examples of Sony (of America) preventing me from playing the games I want to play.
I don't really know why people hold a grudge from stuff like MS3 getting rejected. It's a really old game, so I would've done the same if I was Sony. Sometimes, you need to make sacrifices to have a successful console. You can't have devs releasing 5 year old games running on a emu for 50 a pop. Other companies like Working Designs, kept insisting on releasing first generation stuff when everybody else was releasing 3rd generation or so games. It was a good thing they were forced to bundle their games.
"Sooo, what was it that you consider a 'good salary' for a man to make?"
"They should at least make 100K to have a good life"
...
Microsoft allowed SNK to release Metal Slug 3, and their console still managed to be successful.
I don't expect you to agree with me -- the fact that you would even consider Metal Slug 3 an "old" game shows that you had regular access to the Neo-Geo original. I didn't have that kind of access... so, to me, Metal Slug 3 was a great NEW game that I was hoping to play. And I did get to finally play it -- on the Xbox.
From a Neo-Geo players' perspective, I can understand why you would want it to be bundled. You already owned Metal Slug 3 on Neo-Geo. Released individually, you wouldn't have a reason to buy it (although I would).
However, although I understand why you would want Metal Slug games bundled, I don't understand why you think it's "good" that the Growlanser games had to be bundled. Neither one had ever been released in the US, and each one -- alone -- was filled with dozens of hours of gameplay. Therefore, I don't understand why they *needed* to be bundled together. Sure, bundling two games together is a better value for customers... but bundling God of War with Genji would have been a better value for customers, too, and Sony (understandably) didn't do that.
I don't understand the logic behind the idea that "Releasing old games" hurts console sales...
Never in my life have I heard "Dude, did you see they just put [insert 2D game] on [insert some console here], obviously because of this crazy flaw, it is a horrible console, and I will not buy one."
Their logic is: people see 2D game, think that system can ONLY do 2D games, therefore it's old junk, so they buy the other system that "can do 3D". Sadly, they may be right - I don't doubt that many people ARE that dumb.
jp wrote:I don't understand the logic behind the idea that "Releasing old games" hurts console sales...
Never in my life have I heard "Dude, did you see they just put [insert 2D game] on [insert some console here], obviously because of this crazy flaw, it is a horrible console, and I will not buy one."
while SCEA is testicle-free on the whole 2D thing, i think i understand their tought.
let me tell you why:
a couple years ago, a little after PS2 launch, i was playing silpheed in a big multimedia store. two dudes came looking for a chance to play something, their reaction?
"oh my god, a gameboy game, why the hell are they still making this?"
and they left.
SCEA is gay for being afraid that a few 2D games get released on their oh-so-next-gen console, but i think i understand why they are, even if it isnt obvious at first.
EDIT: the reason being, of course: people are retards.
"In short, it comes down to spirit" - dodonpachi developper Kohyama.
I hate console wars. Can't you guys be happy with whatever machine you decide to blow your $400-600 on?
Okay, M$ has enough money to almost take over the world. The OS monopoly is a good thing, seriously, it would be a pain in the ass to figure out if game X will work on OS Y. There needs to be a standard. There's always Apple or Linux if you're deathly afraid of Windows. The Xbox360 is a damn fine gaming machine. I'd buy one if it and HDTVs were cheaper.
Sony, I think their shit is overpriced, but I like my PS2 and the kinds of games you can play on it. $600 for the good PS3? Shit, are option packages a new trend? An Xbox 360 Core system like decaffinated coffee or a V6 Mustang, it's a faux of the real thing. Blue-Ray DVD? Arrggh, I miss the old days of cartridges and VHS Tapes!
Wii (what a stupid name, Nintendo) is too weird to me to comment on. I guess Nintendo loves to dig their own grave eh?
FatCobra wrote:
Wii (what a stupid name, Nintendo) is too weird to me to comment on. I guess Nintendo loves to dig their own grave eh?
Nintendo sometimes loves digging their own grave... but I think they're going to enjoy laughing at you from a top their cash pile after the Wii becomes a phenomena in Japan even more.
FatCobra wrote:
Wii (what a stupid name, Nintendo) is too weird to me to comment on. I guess Nintendo loves to dig their own grave eh?
Nintendo sometimes loves digging their own grave... but I think they're going to enjoy laughing at you from a top their cash pile after the Wii becomes a phenomena in Japan even more.
You know them people in Japan; they love weird stuff like remotes for controllers and hentai games. (OMG I just had a disturbing thought; hentai games on the Wii)
FatCobra wrote:
Wii (what a stupid name, Nintendo) is too weird to me to comment on. I guess Nintendo loves to dig their own grave eh?
Nintendo sometimes loves digging their own grave... but I think they're going to enjoy laughing at you from a top their cash pile after the Wii becomes a phenomena in Japan even more.
You know them people in Japan; they love weird stuff like remotes for controllers and hentai games. (OMG I just had a disturbing thought; hentai games on the Wii)
Hentai games on the Wii...
Well, the Wiimote does vibrate...
Zigfried the Trizealot wrote:Microsoft allowed SNK to release Metal Slug 3, and their console still managed to be successful.
I don't expect you to agree with me -- the fact that you would even consider Metal Slug 3 an "old" game shows that you had regular access to the Neo-Geo original. I didn't have that kind of access... so, to me, Metal Slug 3 was a great NEW game that I was hoping to play. And I did get to finally play it -- on the Xbox.
From a Neo-Geo players' perspective, I can understand why you would want it to be bundled. You already owned Metal Slug 3 on Neo-Geo. Released individually, you wouldn't have a reason to buy it (although I would).
However, although I understand why you would want Metal Slug games bundled, I don't understand why you think it's "good" that the Growlanser games had to be bundled. Neither one had ever been released in the US, and each one -- alone -- was filled with dozens of hours of gameplay. Therefore, I don't understand why they *needed* to be bundled together. Sure, bundling two games together is a better value for customers... but bundling God of War with Genji would have been a better value for customers, too, and Sony (understandably) didn't do that.
//Zig
Regarding MS3, I've never owned it. I just played it on emu to my heart's content like I don't know, three years before it was released on consoles. Old stuff. Now, regarding Growlanser (which wasn't my intention) and other "recent" Working Design titles, they were reaally old stuff too. And I don't mean it because they're 2D like some people seem to be thinking. I mean it in the literal sense. Growlanser 2/3 were originally released in what '01/'02? Yet WD wanted to release each individually at the end of '04. Also, take a look at Arc the Lad Collection, released in America in '02. The first arc was released in '95, the second one '96, and the third one '99. What in the world were they thinking? Wasn't there more recent stuff they could license? They dig their own graves by trying to release 3 years or older games.
Now, God of War and Genji are relatively new (in the literal sense, not because they're 3D), so there's no reason to bundle 'em. If today was 2009, there's no way they'd release 'em as standalone games.
"Sooo, what was it that you consider a 'good salary' for a man to make?"
"They should at least make 100K to have a good life"
...
I don't play on the emus, so Metal Slug 3 was new to me. I just knew it was supposed to be awesome, and I really wanted to play it. I got the opportunity, thanks to Xbox.
Arc the Lad Collection was a PS1 compilation released after the PS2 came out. Very different circumstance from Growlanser. It's also my understanding that it was Working Designs' idea to bundle Arc the Lad -- they knew that releasing games for a dead system was risky.
As for Growlanser 2 and 3, why should the age of the games matter if they're designed for PS2, of high quality, and never-before-seen in the US? In my opinion, there's no quality difference between Growlanser 3 and Genji; I don't understand why one should be bundled, but the other shouldn't. Sony's insistence on forced bundling actually delayed Growlanser's US release even further.
To make things even more puzzling, Wild Arms: Alter Code F was released two years late in the US. La Pucelle was released 2 1/2 years late in the US. However, neither of those games were forced to be bundled with anything.
Sony inconsistently keeps trying to decide what their customers want to play. They need to stop doing that.
Reading through this thread, I'm reminded of quite a few conversations I've overheard of the years. These conversations are centered around the sentence "________ doesn't have any good games". In the blank of course, would go whatever current or past system that the speaker didn't like. Whenever this sentence comes up, I can't help but wonder... does the speaker realize how much of an imbecile they sound like? Unless they've played every single game on a given system themselves, making that statement more or less negates any other opinions or thoughts that they have, as it shows they're clearly not willing to even make a rational argument when the simple topic of a particular game system comes up.
Now, as far as the Microsoft and Sony hate, that's partially because people are trying to come off as "cool". Hate what's most popular or widely used, and somehow that's supposed to transform a person into a rebel or a leader. Sadly, all it does is make them look stupid. Part of the MS/Sony hate also comes from personal experiences with their products. Can you blame a person who's on their fourth PS 2, for feeling Sony makes piss-poor gaming systems construction-wise? Can you blame a person who's had their PC mangled by Windows and MS product errors, for thinking Microsoft couldn't design a stable OS to save their asses? No opinion or review can take the place of personal experience, and when those experiences are all bad, you're going to find company hate. Of course, then you also have the folks who really have given a company's system or software a try and just didn't like it, folks who are fanboys for a given company, folks who don't like a system because it has few (or no) entries in a given genre they like, and loads of other people who use different reasons for company hate. It's always going to be there. You could design the perfect system, and have it backed by every third party developer in the known world. And you know what? People would still find a reason to hate it. That's just the way some folks are.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, who cares why someone hates a company. Let them. It'll be their loss, as all they're doing is making themselves miss out on games the rest of us will be enjoying. The only point they're proving is one to themselves, and they certainly aren't making the game companies quiver in fear because they don't like "Gaylo's Sex Box", "Lamecube", "PoS 2", or whatever other terms they think they're being funny and clever with. As far as I'm concerned, the point of games is to enjoy them, regardless of who made it... not create factions based around game companies and system manufacturers.
So let the haters hate folks. Let them piss up a storm as they try and rally people to their imaginary cause. Don't let it affect you or any of your decisions, and don't let it cause you to miss out on the point of it all... fun. Leave the childish idiocy on the elementary school playground where it belongs. Trust me... you'll be having a lot more fun when you're gaming, and not bothering with the tired system and company wars.
Last edited by The Coop on Sun May 14, 2006 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zigfried the Trizealot wrote:I don't play on the emus, so Metal Slug 3 was new to me. I just knew it was supposed to be awesome, and I really wanted to play it. I got the opportunity, thanks to Xbox.
Arc the Lad Collection was a PS1 compilation released after the PS2 came out. Very different circumstance from Growlanser. It's also my understanding that it was Working Designs' idea to bundle Arc the Lad -- they knew that releasing games for a dead system was risky.
As for Growlanser 2 and 3, why should the age of the games matter if they're designed for PS2, of high quality, and never-before-seen in the US? In my opinion, there's no quality difference between Growlanser 3 and Genji; I don't understand why one should be bundled, but the other shouldn't. Sony's insistence on forced bundling actually delayed Growlanser's US release even further.
To make things even more puzzling, Wild Arms: Alter Code F was released two years late in the US. La Pucelle was released 2 1/2 years late in the US. However, neither of those games were forced to be bundled with anything.
Sony inconsistently keeps trying to decide what their customers want to play. They need to stop doing that.
//Zig
Ah wells, WD are gone now. puff, can't dwell to much in the past. Gotta go play some games.
"Sooo, what was it that you consider a 'good salary' for a man to make?"
"They should at least make 100K to have a good life"
...
I feel exactly like grandpa in that VGCats comic. Gamers act like 5-year olds a good portion of the time, but E3 amplifies this to an extreme. Where's my belt?
As a sidenote, I did find this curious patent for something which sounds very much like the PS3's controller from the European Patent Office. Notice the date.
(The page has some seriously weird code going on, you might need to restart your browser before viewing it)
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.
Ghegs wrote:I feel exactly like grandpa in that VGCats comic. Gamers act like 5-year olds a good portion of the time, but E3 amplifies this to an extreme. Where's my belt?
Totally with you man - why can't people be confident enough in their own choices that they don't have to belittle the choices of others?
Last edited by judesalmon on Tue May 16, 2006 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be attitude for gains:
1) Be praying...
2) Be praying...
3) Be praying...
Reading through the posts, and I have a question maybe someone actually knows. There are complaints as to why Sony doesn't release certain games in the US or Europe, and people question why they don't release certain stuff - be it hatred of 2d or whatnot.
My question is, is there some other financial reason as to why they don't release a game? I always had the impression that it was the publisher that would pay for all manufacturing costs, including using their own plants to press and pack games, so it was their gamble as to whether to release something or not. I could see a justification for not releasing something if, however, every publisher paid for manufacturing, but had to use Sony's plants or something like that. In that case, yeah, the publisher pays, but their work limits the other titles that could be made in its place.
apparently the gun may have been jumped on that last one. seesm there were TWO laptops, one with blu ra y and one with dvd for comparison purposes, and only the dvd one was popped open.
