Why do people dislike Sony but not Microsoft?

[Turrican]

I don't give a crap what the XBOX is "called", or what demographic likes it the most-I love it, and there are plenty of games on it that are not FPS or sports titles.

It is me who entered in the "name" thing of the xbox, but I never said it's just FPS or sports. Just to clarify.

[sethsez]

I beg to disagree - Nintendo DS won the press hearts for some reasons. 1) some unique games that make decent use of the novelties 2) Nintendogs and 3) some quite well excuted installments of famous franchises: Advance Wars, Mario Kart, Phoenix Wright, Castlevania: it's all stuff that was awesome before and that DS didn't compromise.

Now how many franchises were successfully ported over PSP? Wipeout? Fine. And how many felt like, good spent money, instead of "yes, this burnout is nice, but why the heck I am not playing the home version on my 29'tv?"

You talk of games and names that look genuinely good or not - but what about plain plain good games? The DS has definitely an edge - and it shows.

I'm talking about their showings at E3.

And I'd agree - except Kutaragi continues to say that he hit big with a product that costed three time as much as competitors:

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=64646

And you know what? we can't deny that.

We also can't deny that his product was in a different generation than the one he compared it to. Of course the Playstation was much more expensive than the much older SNES. A proper comparison would be to the other machines of that gen, the Saturn and the N64, which were similarly priced.

People aren't bitching that the PS3 is expensive compared to the previous gen, they're bitching that it's ridiculously expensive compared to the machines it's competing against directly. Its closest competitor is still $200 cheaper, which wasn't the case at all with the original Playstation.

Edit: Ah, I see you saw this. Nevermind then.

[Turrican]

I'm talking about their showings at E3.

I was talking on the whole. But seriously, even for things to come - the show was even at best. I trust Kojima pro enough to believe the new Metal Gear will be good (still, it says a lot about the whole card affair the attempted to) - And I'm not keen to a stylus controlled Wind Waker - complete with seas. Still, DS had much more on floor - if they even get right some, it's enough to secure edge. Heck, there's even Mother 3 to back it

edit= what I mean is that PSP so far had a slow start - Lumines' still the hottest thing on it probably - so every TGS or E3 should be the chance to a massive renaissance for it. Instead, there was no sign of a trend's change among developers. I'm sure good games will arrive but for now...

We also can't deny that his product was in a different generation than the one he compared it to. Of course the Playstation was much more expensive than the much older SNES. A proper comparison would be to the other machines of that gen, the Saturn and the N64, which were similarly priced.

People aren't bitching that the PS3 is expensive compared to the previous gen, they're bitching that it's ridiculously expensive compared to the machines it's competing against directly. Its closest competitor is still $200 cheaper, which wasn't the case at all with the original Playstation.

Edit: Ah, I see you saw this. Nevermind then.

True - I deleted just because I followed your same thought I believe Psone was the most expensive of the bunch, however, iirc.

[sethsez]

Actually the Saturn cost $100 more, at least here, and the N64 was $100 cheaper (though with stupidly expensive games to make up for it).

[Turrican]

Actually the Saturn cost $100 more, at least here, and the N64 was $100 cheaper (though with stupidly expensive games to make up for it).

Sorry - meant strictly japanese releases. Overseas, there were just too many factors other than price that concurred to Sony's takeover.

[sethsez]

Yeah, here Sony won mostly because they didn't screw anything up. Sega had a dismal, overpriced launch and carried over a lot of ill will after the Sega CD and 32X. Nintendo had carts that cost a stupid amount and couldn't hold nearly as much info, and had too few games.

Sony... well, they just existed. Their games were reasonably priced and varied, the system was powerful without costing an arm and a leg, and it just generally provided what people wanted without pissing them off in some way. Gaming is full of this... companies have gotten ahead on the basis of being mild and unassuming while their competitors do boneheaded things. Sony rode this wave through the 32-bit generation into the one after it, where they didn't screw up anything majorly enough to lose their momentum. That's why I'm predicting a major shake up this gen... the price point is the first thing Sony's done that could wind up being a huge mistake, and in America at least, Microsoft has built up enough good will to take over should Sony falter.

It's certainly an interesting time to be a gamer.

[Turrican]

Yeah, here Sony won mostly because they didn't screw anything up. Sega had a dismal, overpriced launch and carried over a lot of ill will after the Sega CD and 32X. Nintendo had carts that cost a stupid amount and couldn't hold nearly as much info, and had too few games.

Sony... well, they just existed. Their games were reasonably priced and varied, the system was powerful without costing an arm and a leg, and it just generally provided what people wanted without pissing them off in some way. Gaming is full of this... companies have gotten ahead on the basis of being mild and unassuming while their competitors do boneheaded things. Sony rode this wave through the 32-bit generation into the one after it, where they didn't screw up anything majorly enough to lose their momentum. That's why I'm predicting a major shake up this gen... the price point is the first thing Sony's done that could wind up being a huge mistake, and in America at least, Microsoft has built up enough good will to take over should Sony falter.

Oh, that's not generous in regards to Sony. They did much more than just being there.
The localized their software libraries according to each territory - it was something amazing. Sure all the hardcores here will cry to blasphemy, but Sony gave Parodius to Japanese, FIFA to yankees and Core Design / Psygnosis to europeans.

You warned Ken not to compare PSOne to Snes - well, SNES was the big thing in Japan, no doubt (it had DQ & FF) - the one to beat to secure DQ & FF.
Well, overseas, Saturn didn't even feel like the same gen as Psone - It had to wait a huge time for Wipeout and Resident Evil - and within two years it had become more a successor of the PC Engine than a true competitor - awesome if you liked, huh, Darius Gaiden. Completely worhless if you didn't even know about import stores.

Don't apply Sony's nowadays image to 1995 - they were brilliant back then.

And about the future - hmm - a major shake. I won't predict it, but I sure do hope it happens.

It's certainly an interesting time to be a gamer.

to be a market analyst, perhaps. A gamer plays, we're just rambling.

[icycalm]

I spend as much time thinking about the "Console Wars" as anyone else I guess. I realize it's silly at times. But it can also be interesting and fun. Just seeing all these rich, well-educated, grown-up managers act like kids, and lie and boast and exaggerate, and fire cheap shots at each other, is highly amusing.

I never get caught up in the loves and hatreds. I realize they are all just companies trying to turn a profit. I simply view the whole thing as an intellectual exercise.

Can I predict what will happen next? Can I pick the winner months before anyone else? Can you?

When I was young and more naive and had less money, it was a more "serious" matter. I couldn't buy all the consoles. So there were games I wanted to play on, say, the Supergrafx, which I just couldn't play without buying the system. Or I would have my brand new Mega Drive and yet for a long time I wouldn't have any Capcom or Konami games on it because Nintendo kept them shackled under their exclusivity agreement. And so the NES would get a 3rd Ninja Gaiden game, while my 16-bit monster got none. I hated Nintendo for that, but I was just a kid.

These days I have a steady income and I can buy all the consoles I want. I really couldn't care less who wins in the end. The developers who have ideas for cool games will eventually find a platform to develop them on, and I will make sure I own that platform and whatever else I need to enjoy their games.

The belief that Sony killed 2D gaming, or shumps or whatever, is false through and through. I go back and look at the insane numbers of shumps released from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, and I wonder at how the genre managed to last that long with such a huge number of rip-offs and sequels and clones. There are probably something like 10 shmups for every FPS out there. I love these games, and I loved the old days, but I rather prefer getting 3-4 quality titles a year (as happens now) than a glut of titles of questionable quality.

It makes no difference who wins the console war, or how the market share gets divided. That can only ever have a short term effect. In the end, the dude who has an idea for a game will find a way to realize it. If he doesn't, then his idea wasn't worth that much to begin with.

What I want to say is that the hardware is not as important as everyone makes it out to be. If you are prepared to spend 1000US every 4 or 5 years to buy all the consoles that come out, then you can safely ignore the console wars, and spend your time playing and reading about games. Eventually the console will become like a VCR or a DVD player, and we will all be able to concentrate on the art and the artists.

Yes, this "Console War" hoopla can be entertaining to watch--but only if you are a detached spectator. I see so many people online taking this shit seriously--and fighting amongst each other--that it gets depressing some times.

[sethsez]

Oh, that's not generous in regards to Sony. They did much more than just being there.
The localized their software libraries according to each territory - it was something amazing. Sure all the hardcores here will cry to blasphemy, but Sony gave Parodius to Japanese, FIFA to yankees and Core Design / Psygnosis to europeans.

We yanks couldn't possibly care less about FIFA, but I get the gist of it.

Don't apply Sony's nowadays image to 1995 - they were brilliant back then.

I agree, and said as much earlier. My point, however, is that they were massively helped by the fact that their two competitors both screwed up in some major ways. Had Nintendo not stuck with carts, or had Sega not burned all the goodwill they got with superfluous Genesis addons that just confused everyone, who knows where we'd be now? Sony did a damn good job, no doubt, but they were helped along enormously by the fact that Sega and Nintendo did damn bad jobs.

And about the future - hmm - a major shake. I won't predict it, but I sure do hope it happens.

At the very least we finally have three machines that seem to be doing different things, instead of three variations on the exact same model.

to be a market analyst, perhaps. A gamer plays, we're just rambling.

But for the first time the machines seem to actually have different approaches to gameplay. It's much broader than it's been in a long time.

[Turrican]

I spend as much time thinking about the "Console Wars" an anyone else I guess. I realize it's silly at times. But it can also be interesting and fun. Just seeing all these rich, well-educated, grown-up managers act like kids, and lie and boast and exaggerate, and fire cheap shots at each other, is highly amusing.

I never get caught up in the loves and hatreds. I realize they are all just companies trying to turn a profit. I simply view the whole thing as an intellectual exercise.

Can I predict what will happen next? Can I pick the winner months before anyone else? Can you?

When I was young and more naive and had less money, it was a more "serious" matter. I couldn't buy all the consoles. So there were games I wanted to play on, say, the Supergrafx, which I just couldn't play without buying the system. Or I would have my brand new Mega Drive and yet for a long time I wouldn't have any Capcom or Konami games on it because Nintendo kept them shackled under their exclusivity agreement. And so the NES would get a 3rd Ninja Gaiden game, while my 16-bit monster got none. I hated Nintendo for that, but I was just a kid.

These days I have a steady income and I can buy all the consoles I want. I really couldn't care less who wins in the end. The developers who have ideas for cool games will eventually find a platform to develop them on, and I will make sure I own that platform and whatever else I need to enjoy their games.

The belief that Sony killed 2D gaming, or shumps or whatever, is false through and through. I go back and look at the insane numbers of shumps released from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, and I wonder at how the genre managed to last that long with such a huge number of rip-offs and sequels and clones. There are probably something like 10 shmups for every FPS out there. I love these games, and I loved the old days, but I rather prefer getting 3-4 quality titles a year (as happens now) than a glut of titles of questionable quality.

It makes no difference who wins the console war, or how the market share gets divided. That can only ever have a short term effect. In the end, the dude who has an idea for a game will find a way to realize it. If he doesn't, then his idea wasn't worth that much to begin with.

What I want to say is that the hardware is not as important as everyone makes it out to be. If you are prepared to spend 1000US every 4 or 5 years to buy all the consoles that come out, then you can safely ignore the console wars, and spend your time playing and reading about games. Eventually the console will become like a VCR or a DVD player, and we will all be able to concentrate on the art and the artists.

Yes, this "Console War" hoopla can be entertaining to watch--but only if you are a detached spectator. I see so many people online taking this shit seriously--and fighting amongst each other--that it gets depressing some times.

Wholly agreeable and well said. Well, I can't say the same about the steady income part, which makes the intellectual exercise a bit more needed in practical - but's not just about money. It's also about room: each system takes precious space - sure I cannot go with all three each gen, as I like to have them plugged, otherwise I wouldn't find the will to plug them every time I need a quick play.
And it's also about - my gamer nature has to deal with my other interests - can't take all the cake, both in terms of money and time. In short, there's plenty of advantage to still being able to see who's gonna make it and go with the one that suits you most. I'll play the rest when it's retro. I never feel the urge to play a game because it's technologically advanced.

[Turrican]

And about the future - hmm - a major shake. I won't predict it, but I sure do hope it happens.

At the very least we finally have three machines that seem to be doing different things, instead of three variations on the exact same model.

Still not so sure Microsoft and Sony are that different. And if they are, it's not going to last. It's the natural flow of things that if one finds a successful product, the other will try to secure it too / clone it someway.

[sethsez]

Well, Microsoft seems to be really, really pushing online play while Sony's just kind of "yeah, it's there I guess" and still focusing mostly on the single player experience. That's a pretty big difference in focus that's miles away from, say, Saturn and Playstation.

[jp]

But I digress. The 360 had a rough start in Japan yes. But if Blue Dragon, Lost Planet, and the numerous other JP 360 titles remain exclusive, I could see MS being a bit more competitive.

Look, not to sound like a cynic bastard. But really - RPGs are the most stale and conservative genre ever. Have you ever seen many brands getting largely successful? Nope, it's still all about Dragon Quest (or I'd rather say "Toriyamaesque character design") and Final Fantasy. All the others fare well, like the Tales series lately, but nothing groundbreaking. Level 5 last one, Rogue, had stellar voice cast and massive production value, and rest sure that it won't achieve the same everlasting appeal of DQ and FF. Why? because quite simply it wasn't there, in blocky glory FC days, when Japanese kids got their imprinting.

To think Blue Dragon will become the next hot thing because there is Sakaguchi behind, is like to think Spirits Within had chances in theaters.

I'm not saying that I personally love RPGs, quite the opposite. I'm just saying that the JAPANESE like their RPGs.

And I never said I thought Blue Dragon would be the next hot thing because of Sakaguchi. I said it would be the next hot thing because ITS ONE OF THE TOP 5 MOST ANTICIPATED GAMES IN JAPAN!

And about Nintendo hardware going out the door? Aren't we tired of this complaint yet? People have been saying it for years. Sure enough, that's internet people that don't know the first thing about economics (granted, that's most people on the internet and forums like this one) but Nintendo show no signs of going anywhere.

Indeed, Nintendo is still very profitable as a company. Unlike Sega, they haven't fucked up quite as bad in the past.

I think the DS has stronger brands behind it right now, but the execution of those brands is what worries me. Yoshi's Island 2 being done by Artoon, Starfox having been screwed up several times in the recent past, Zelda's control looks a bit odd and unneeded, etc... as of right now I think the PSP has more games that look genuinely good, and the DS has more names that look genuinely good. How things'll turn out remains to be seen, but as a DS owner I obviously hope they don't screw the pooch on this.

Basically the same thing was being said when the DS first came out... and look where we are now. Its almost like "Launch of the DS pt. II: The Electric Boogaloo", only this time the DS already has a vast library of great games and the competition has... ports... remakes... and collections...

Its weird really, when the first batch of DS games were announced people said the dual screens were a gimmick, the stylus was a gimmick, and the games wouldn't be good. Now a lot of people out there feel the DS is the best portable ever made. And now that the first batch of announced games is about to be wrapped up (New Super Mario Bros. is the last one from the pre-launch days I do believe), its time for the second wave. Only this time, lot less critics in general.

Nintendo will still pull through. The DS isn't going anywhere. And the games are only going to get better.

And all this hate on Artoon. Tsk tsk, these are the people that made NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon. Sure, they're the lesser people (aside from Yoji Ishii and Sonic's creator), but... *shrugs*, the potential is there.

Actually, what REALLY amuses me, is that Nintendo, for the first time EVER, is doing what gamers have been WANTING them to do. Traditional 2D Mario? Done. Traditional sequel to Yoshi's Island? Done. Traditional Kirby game? Done. Serious toned Zelda game? Done. Wanted something similar to Wind Waker? Done. Wanted a new Star Fox? Done.

I mean honestly, everyone bitched and complained about Kirby Canvas Curse and Yoshi's Touch N Go being too gimmicky, and now Nintendo is making traditional 2D platformers. I think Nintendo is on the right path.

In the previous thread that I guess I made (Turrican referenced it, I don't remember it), it was concluded that it was Sony's game to fuck up. Well... after that E3... I don't see how they could have fucked any worse. Aside from here and Neo-geo.com (big surprise), the general buzz is "Fuck Sony".

Microsoft game out with a stellar show. And Nintendo came out with a stellar show. Now, its anybody's game.

Edit: sethsez, the DS rant wasn't really aimed totally towards you, more towards the people still complaining about the DS even after its proven itself on the market.

[sethsez]

And all this hate on Artoon. Tsk tsk, these are the people that made NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon. Sure, they're the lesser people (aside from Yoji Ishii and Sonic's creator), but... *shrugs*, the potential is there.

Well, yes, but more importantly they're the people who made Pinobee, Blinx and Yoshi Topsy Turvy. They had talent, but god only knows what happened to it and why they're keeping it so expertly under wraps now.

[dai jou bu]

One question though: does Microsoft even care about the doujin scene? Do these circles have to pay a licensing fee to release their titles on a Windows-based platform or something? Seriously, these guys seem to have less money than commercial PC developers out there, and they're somehow able to release games on Microsoft's OS.

[jp]

And all this hate on Artoon. Tsk tsk, these are the people that made NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon. Sure, they're the lesser people (aside from Yoji Ishii and Sonic's creator), but... *shrugs*, the potential is there.

Well, yes, but more importantly they're the people who made Pinobee, Blinx and Yoshi Topsy Turvy. They had talent, but god only knows what happened to it and why they're keeping it so expertly under wraps now.

Touche!!! Actually, Artoon is also heavily involved with Blue Dragon on the 360.

[Kron]

I don't give a crap what the XBOX is "called", or what demographic likes it the most-I love it, and there are plenty of games on it that are not FPS or sports titles.

Yeah, There is also racing titles

Its a pretty sad state where 8-10 games constitute Japanese support in some peoples eyes. The console has no balance or variety.

[Neon]

I don't give a crap what the XBOX is "called", or what demographic likes it the most-I love it, and there are plenty of games on it that are not FPS or sports titles.

Yeah, There is also racing titles

Its a pretty sad state where 8-10 games constitute Japanese support in some peoples eyes. The console has no balance or variety.

It's surprising that someone would use 'variety' as criteria to judge whether a console was worth getting. If it has 8-10 great games, what are you waiting for? I have an Xbox for the great Capcom lineup and Outrun 2, hard to argue that these aren't quality games. I couldn't be happier with it myself.

I won't be the most popular person in the universe for saying this either, but emulation wise, an arcadeVGA card for your PC beats the Wii (and Xbox) on cost and quality, also. Roughly equal space usage.

[Ceph]

Microsoft came out with a stellar show. And Nintendo came out with a stellar show. Now, its anybody's game.

And you honestly believe that one trade fair is going to reshuffle the cards?
Besides, I don't think there is a consensus on Nintendo having delivered a "stellar show".

Do not underestimate the power of backwards compatibility. I personally know several people (I mean Joe Averages, not fanatics like us) who currently own PS2s and for them this is THE decisive factor. They want to keep their existing library of games and they don't want more than one next generation console. The current market share of Sony will cushion a handsome amount of fucking-up. And I don't think their current fuck-up-level is enough to bring Sony down.

---
@Turrican: Nice long post, good thoughts.

---
Anyway, my question has been answered. The majority do in fact hate Microsoft (too), and for all the right (non console related) reasons. Because, to put it in simple terms, they are "evil" monopolists who are fucking with all mankind. The world has reason to be afraid of Microsoft, for they have become so powerful (even goverments yield to them) that they decide what computer software consumers need, and at what pace advancements are made. As shown by the "Wintel" alliance and the example of mp3 players and DRM, aka Digital Restrictions Management (aka consumer-a$$-rape), their intrusion into our lifes is not limited to software. A sidenote on Gate's apparent philanthropy; of course the man cares about his public image. He ist the richest man of the world (I wonder if in the history of humankind there ever was one single private person who owned more). He has more money to spend than several small nations. Imagine what people would think of him if he wouldn't at least donate a few tiny morsels for humanitarian causes? A guilty conscience could be another reason. Gates isn't stupid; he knows that his company is currently not doing the world a service; rather that Microsoft has become a giant leech (amoeba might be more fitting). How nice he returns some of what he sucked out.

The dislike of Sony among gamers seems to be mostly based on them having become bigheaded about their Playstation franchise. Or like in the case of a few here who shall remain namelss, is simply irrational. All corporations have a tendancy to behave immoraly (and do so whenever they think they can get away with it), because they lack a moral code which would stand in the way of maximum profits. I urge everyone to watch this, if you haven't already: The Corporation

EDIT: typos corrected

[benj]

It's surprising that someone would use 'variety' as criteria to judge whether a console was worth getting. If it has 8-10 great games, what are you waiting for?

Believe it or not, but some people (like me) don't have the cash to buy each and every console that gets released. These people will most likely buy the console which has more games that suits their taste. And if the games one enjoys are mostly those of japanese origin, the PS is probably the way to go.

I have an Xbox for the great Capcom lineup and Outrun 2, hard to argue that these aren't quality games.

Gotta love it when people state their opinions as facts. And weren't most (or all) Capcom games released on multiple platforms?

I won't be the most popular person in the universe for saying this either, but emulation wise, an arcadeVGA card for your PC beats the Wii (and Xbox) on cost and quality, also. Roughly equal space usage.

Since you are such a faithful capitalist, shouldn't you be the first one to acknowledge these companies IP?

[Turrican]

And I never said I thought Blue Dragon would be the next hot thing because of Sakaguchi. I said it would be the next hot thing because ITS ONE OF THE TOP 5 MOST ANTICIPATED GAMES IN JAPAN!

Yeah - and it will do well, maybe - cool. It has Toriyama in it after all. But I somehow doubt it will change 360's business in Japan. Besides, "most anticipated" is kind of magazine hype talk - they always put MGS games in those lists too, and in truth it doesn't end selling that good in Japan alone.

Its weird really, when the first batch of DS games were announced people said the dual screens were a gimmick, the stylus was a gimmick, and the games wouldn't be good. Now a lot of people out there feel the DS is the best portable ever made. And now that the first batch of announced games is about to be wrapped up (New Super Mario Bros. is the last one from the pre-launch days I do believe), its time for the second wave. Only this time, lot less critics in general.

Yeah, well - I remember saying gimmick in that Castlevania DS thread - in fact, magic seals really were and the game could do without. However the same features were well implemented in many other games.. But that doesn't matter - I'm with icycalm when he says that these systems features in the end don't matter - but nintendo attitude toward games does. And the overall quality of DS library so far speaks for itself, I'd say.

And the [DS] games are only going to get better.

Actually - there's no proof of that. I wouldn't guarantee that for sure, seiing how Nintendo 64 started with Mario 64, Cube started with... something that definitely stayed into the disc tray until RE4. And many still would vote Tetris or SML as the best GB games.

Actually, what REALLY amuses me, is that Nintendo, for the first time EVER, is doing what gamers have been WANTING them to do. Traditional 2D Mario? Done. Traditional sequel to Yoshi's Island? Done. Traditional Kirby game? Done. Serious toned Zelda game? Done. Wanted something similar to Wind Waker? Done. Wanted a new Star Fox? Done.

LOL, nintendo did what people wanted during the NES days, rest sure. And about doing what people want - for ages gamers begged Treasure to bring back Gunstar As the saying goes, "beware of what you wish, because it may be granted someday..."

In the previous thread that I guess I made (Turrican referenced it, I don't remember it), it was concluded that it was Sony's game to fuck up. Well... after that E3... I don't see how they could have fucked any worse. Aside from here and Neo-geo.com (big surprise), the general buzz is "Fuck Sony".

there, just for reference:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=7032

[Arznei]

Oh trust me. There are a LOT of people who dislike Microsoft over Sony.

And there are also a LOT of people who dislike Nintendo, you just don't see them (always) complaining. I could go on about how Nintendo are rehashing ideas over, and how gaming companies are stealing ideas from eachother (Sega makes the analog stick, Nintendo steals it, Sony copies, Nintendo introduces the Wiimote with motion sensors, Sony uses motion sensors in their PS3 controller) but that's what the gaming industry IS these days.

So long as developers don't disregard 2D and innovative titles for the generic fps, racing, sports, and 3D RPG titles, I'm happy.

[Neon]

Believe it or not, but some people (like me) don't have the cash to buy each and every console that gets released. These people will most likely buy the console which has more games that suits their taste. And if the games one enjoys are mostly those of japanese origin, the PS is probably the way to go.

Yes, but you're looking at it through your own opportunity costs. It seems to me Kron dislikes the Xbox for having a low amount of quality games, but my point is that a quality game is a quality game. IMO, Dreamcast has fewer quality games than PS2. Should I throw away my Dreamcast? No. The (remaining) exclusives are fucking sweet. These are just pieces of hardware, a means to play games, yet people treat them as more. Boycotting the Xbox isn't going to do much to stop the 'hollywoodification' of videogames; buying one and supporting releases like Streetfighter Anniversary Collection (better than any other version, glad you asked) where every sale counts does a bit more to ensure we keep getting home releases of arcade games we enjoy. If we should even go on a silly crusade like that, I buy what I want and nothing more.

Gotta love it when people state their opinions as facts.

I thought I had written the post in a style that acknowledged that there isn't one philosophical truth. Aren't you glad we live in a Capitalist society where we're allowed to express minority views? We can discuss it more in the relevant thread, if you're feeling less timid than when you originally didn't reply.

Since you are such a faithful capitalist, shouldn't you be the first one to acknowledge these companies IP?

I have no problem paying for games (and I buy too many, really) as my ridiculous level of feedback in the trading forum will attest. My view is simply that, in the case of the 8 and 16 bitters, emulation beats the real thing thanks to advantages like savestates, translated roms, and so on. Wii doesn't even have most of the games I want for each of the respective consoles anyway, and if it weren't for PC emulation I'd buy the real consoles. So I'm actually helping Nintendo by not supporting secondhand gameshops

Again, this went off on a tangent, sorry. Microsoft versus Sony, yes yes.

[jp]

Microsoft came out with a stellar show. And Nintendo came out with a stellar show. Now, its anybody's game.

And you honestly believe that one trade fair is going to reshuffle the cards?
Besides, I don't think there is a consensus on Nintendo having delivered a "stellar show".

Do not underestimate the power of backwards compatibility. I personally know several people (I mean Joe Averages, not fanatics like us) who currently own PS2s and for them this is THE decisive factor. They want to keep their existing library of games and they don't want more than one next generation console. The current market share of Sony will cushion a handsome amount of fucking-up. And I don't think their current fuck-up-level is enough to bring Sony down.

I think $600, a lack of exclusives that Americans and Europeans give much of a shit about, and being equally as powerful as a $200 cheaper console is going to help "shuffle the cards". My boss is the same way about BC, or rather, was. Now that he knows GTA4 and Madden are both on the 360, will be about the same if not better (GTA4) on the 360, and the 360 is cheaper, he's considering the purchase of a 360 over a PS3. Same could be said of the few Sony fans I work with except one thats clinging to MGS for whatever reason.

@ Turrican


I agree with you for the most part. I still have faith in the DS though. Who knows how Blue Dragon will do, I'm just pointing out that it would seem the Japanese do have interest in at least one 360 game. *Shrugs* Didn't seem like they had much interest in the others though (Dead or Alive 4, Enchanted Arms, and Ninety Nine Nights).

[raiden]

One question though: does Microsoft even care about the doujin scene? Do these circles have to pay a licensing fee to release their titles on a Windows-based platform or something? Seriously, these guys seem to have less money than commercial PC developers out there, and they're somehow able to release games on Microsoft's OS.

If your question is directed at the fact great doujin games have not been released for Xbox Live Arcade, I can give you an answer because I already asked Microsoft two years ago: their stance is only SUCCESSFUL shareware is being ported to XBL Arcade. And by successful they mean a lot more than what doujin games sell. Companies like PopCapGames make so much money from their shareware they´ve expanded by several hundred % last year and are in the process of developing big, 50-team-size games just for the sake of not knowing where else to put all their earnings.
Just look at the batch of new arcade conversions announced for XBL Arcade: that´s BIG names only, about the most popular arcade games in history. Anything else may come later, if XBL Arcade grows to be a lot bigger than it is now.

[benj]

Yes, but you're looking at it through your own opportunity costs. It seems to me Kron dislikes the Xbox for having a low amount of quality games, but my point is that a quality game is a quality game. IMO, Dreamcast has fewer quality games than PS2. Should I throw away my Dreamcast? No. The (remaining) exclusives are fucking sweet. These are just pieces of hardware, a means to play games, yet people treat them as more. Boycotting the Xbox isn't going to do much to stop the 'hollywoodification' of videogames; buying one and supporting releases like Streetfighter Anniversary Collection (better than any other version, glad you asked) where every sale counts does a bit more to ensure we keep getting home releases of arcade games we enjoy. If we should even go on a silly crusade like that, I buy what I want and nothing more.

No one denies that a quality game is a quality game, regardless of platform, but if console x has more of them than console y (depending on personal taste, obviously), and you don't have the space to clutter up your apartment with consoles as big as PC's, or simply don't have the cash for them, then you have to choose. What I don't get is that some people on this board perceive it as narrowminded if one makes a choice like that.
I have to admit that I don't quite understand your Dreamcast example. What has throwing away a console you already own to do with buying another? If you already own a DC or XBOX or whatever, by all means go ahead and enjoy the games for it. My point was merely that I only buy a console if there are enough exclusive titles to justify the purchase.

I thought I had written the post in a style that acknowledged that there isn't one philosophical truth. Aren't you glad we live in a Capitalist society where we're allowed to express minority views? We can discuss it more in the relevant thread, if you're feeling less timid than when you originally didn't reply.

The reason I don't post in this thread is not because I'm intimidated by your big brains. It's because discussions like that just don't do it for me.
Engaging in the latest console wars is all fine and dandy, and making silly arguments about videogames is fun and entertaining. Discussions about religion and politics on the other hand are like sport, as they are fun to watch for a short while, but getting caught up in one of them is rather tiring. And I'm not reall that interested in the political and religious views of complete strangers on the Internet. Also english isn't my native language, so I think I'd be at a disadvantage there.
I don't understand, what all this has to do with my post about opinions vs facts, but whatever.


As for the whole emulation thing: buying a lot of games doesn't give you the right to get the rest of them for free, but I already typed too much so let's just drop this point, as this would probably result in another silly emu discussion.

And to be on topic for the first time in this thread: People probably dislike Sony because they are jealous of Ken Kutaragi's stunning looks.

[dai jou bu]

If your question is directed at the fact great doujin games have not been released for Xbox Live Arcade, I can give you an answer because I already asked Microsoft two years ago: their stance is only SUCCESSFUL shareware is being ported to XBL Arcade. And by successful they mean a lot more than what doujin games sell. Companies like PopCapGames make so much money from their shareware they´ve expanded by several hundred % last year and are in the process of developing big, 50-team-size games just for the sake of not knowing where else to put all their earnings.
Just look at the batch of new arcade conversions announced for XBL Arcade: that´s BIG names only, about the most popular arcade games in history. Anything else may come later, if XBL Arcade grows to be a lot bigger than it is now.

Well, I was just wondering whether or not doujin circles had to pay Microsoft royalty fees for developing and distributing their games on Windows, since if they don't, that's pretty awesome.

Live is a different beast altogether, as you say it is.

[judesalmon]

What a wholly accurate account.

Yeah, I skimped on some games for BOTH consoles. But you get my point.

*GASP* Really!?

No shit dude. I was just pointing out that the 360 has a lot more JP support than people make it out to have.

Yeah I know, I was agreeing with your perfectly reasoned and well-balanced argument.

[SAM]

Actually, what REALLY amuses me, is that Nintendo, for the first time EVER, is doing what gamers have been WANTING them to do. Traditional 2D Mario? Done. Traditional sequel to Yoshi's Island? Done. Traditional Kirby game? Done. Serious toned Zelda game? Done. Wanted something similar to Wind Waker? Done. Wanted a new Star Fox? Done.

Actually if everything said about the Nintendo Wii is true, I am as well broken.

Well, Microsoft seems to be really, really pushing online play while Sony's just kind of "yeah, it's there I guess" and still focusing mostly on the single player experience. That's a pretty big difference in focus that's miles away from, say, Saturn and Playstation.

Well, the one being first to able to sell games directly to gamers online (skiping wholesalers and retailers) by offering downloads would likely been the winer. I think games could be sold 40 to 60% off that way.

EDIT: May be 80% off if they break down the game and hold back some features to be sold as seperate "upgrade".

Well, I was just wondering whether or not doujin circles had to pay Microsoft royalty fees for developing and distributing their games on Windows, since if they don't, that's pretty awesome.

I think Microsoft won't allow Doujin circles on XBLA, since Doujin use to "play homage" to famous anime characters/games which might lead to Micorsoft being sued for IP, they won't risk this.

[system11]

I think Microsoft won't allow Doujin circles on XBLA, since Doujin use to "play homage" to famous anime characters/games which might lead to Micorsoft being sued for IP, they won't risk this.

I think it's more that the games are so far off their radar it hasn't occurred to them. That or the Japanese hate them enough to not even talk.

As for IP violations - check out Zuma, now look at Puzz-Loop. No prizes for guessing which is the original. Mitchell have been trying to nail Popcap for ages over it.