Why do people dislike Sony but not Microsoft?

[system11]

Are games like Dead or Alive 4 really worth acknowledging? Just curious.

It depends. I have devised a simple test:

A) Virtua Fighter is the best fighting game ever made, all others suck, except some maybe by Capcom.
B) Good fighting games are fun.
C) I don't like fighting games.

If you answer B, yes it is. The controls are pretty much spot on, the gameplay significantly tweaked, it looks stunning, and it's fun to play. People get too hung up with OMFG BOOBIES, when actually there's a solid game underneath.

[icycalm]

Are games like Dead or Alive 4 really worth acknowledging? Just curious.

I don't even know where to begin. When the game was released I spent several hours playing against strangers in various stores. It's one of the few games, along with Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, which I was willing to play on demo machines. I usually never do that.

It's an awesome 3D fighter. Only Virtua Fighter 5 can compare. And 4.

[MSZ]

Yeah, fuck Forza, Oblivion, Dead or Alive 4, PGR3, Geometry Wars 2, Ridge Racer 6, Kameo, Viva Pinata, The Outfit, Virtua Tennis 3, Too Human, Blue Dragon, etc. It's all FPS. Yep, finally someone knows what they're talking about.



Yes, it has a lot of FPS (though the PS3 is looking to get just as many). But saying it's all FPS is stupid. Hell, right now the biggest game currently on the system is Oblivion, an RPG.

You kinda missed my point...Yes those games you just mentioned aren't FPS. But none of them did well in Japan. NONE.

I don't give a damn if the hottest game right now is Oblivion, 99.9% of the gamers on the other side of the planet haven't even heard about it before.

USA may be the biggest market, but saying PS3 will sunk is just plain fucking dumb.

[MSZ]

Finally someone on this board knows what he is talking about.

360 is all about FPS games, Halo this Halo that...and I'm so damn glad to see them failed completely in the Japanese market.

For a guy like me who only cares about Japanese game... Sony > MS.

So you're saying that Sony machines are better for narrow minded people?

I didn't say their machines are better, but PS3 will have better games. At least for those who play imports. That was my whole point.

[sethsez]

Yeah, fuck Forza, Oblivion, Dead or Alive 4, PGR3, Geometry Wars 2, Ridge Racer 6, Kameo, Viva Pinata, The Outfit, Virtua Tennis 3, Too Human, Blue Dragon, etc. It's all FPS. Yep, finally someone knows what they're talking about.



Yes, it has a lot of FPS (though the PS3 is looking to get just as many). But saying it's all FPS is stupid. Hell, right now the biggest game currently on the system is Oblivion, an RPG.

You kinda missed my point...Yes those games you just mentioned aren't FPS. But none of them did well in Japan. NONE.

I don't give a damn if the hottest game right now is Oblivion, 99.9% of the gamers on the other side of the planet haven't even heard about it before.

USA may be the biggest market, but saying PS3 will sunk is just plain fucking dumb.

Sony's invested so much into the PS3 (and the rest of the company is doing so poorly) that they can't afford to just win Japan. That's the point. They're going to need either Europe or America as well.

What it boils down to is Microsoft can do well without winning Japan, but Sony can't do well without winning America. The stakes are different for both of them because the companies are in completely different positions.

[MSZ]

Sony's invested so much into the PS3 (and the rest of the company is doing so poorly) that they can't afford to just win Japan. That's the point. They're going to need either Europe or America as well.

What it boils down to is Microsoft can do well without winning Japan, but Sony can't do well without winning America. The stakes are different for both of them because the companies are in completely different positions.

I agree on this part, but should we - the import gamers care?

Even if PS3 doesn't sell in the US and Sony decided to pull it off from the western market(like Sega did to Saturn), I don't think it will affect us one bit. Sony will still be #1 and Nintendo will still hold the #2 spot in the Japanese market. I believe most of the future shmup releases will be on PS3 and Wii as well.

You folks jumped on my first post quickly simply because I said "Sony > MS". But that was from import gamers' point of view.

Feel free to disagree.

[sethsez]

Sony's invested so much into the PS3 (and the rest of the company is doing so poorly) that they can't afford to just win Japan. That's the point. They're going to need either Europe or America as well.

What it boils down to is Microsoft can do well without winning Japan, but Sony can't do well without winning America. The stakes are different for both of them because the companies are in completely different positions.

I agree on this part, but should we - the import gamers care?

Yes, because Sony's worldwide success affects their future products, even in Japan. Success in Japan alone won't support the (extremely advanced and expensive to produce) product they're putting out, which means we might not get a similar product from them again.

[judesalmon]

I think the Sony haters are mainly people who resent them for usurping Sega and Nintendo at the top of the gaming tree.

Also, people will always throw stones at the most successful company, but to me it seems to be a pathetic pastime only engaged in by videogame fans.

And we wonder why our hobby isn't taken seriously...

[sethsez]

I think the Sony haters are mainly people who resent them for usurping Sega and Nintendo at the top of the gaming tree.

I'm annoyed with them because they're falling into the trap Nintendo fell into a decade ago: "customers will like what we tell them to like because we're the market leaders." They're making extremely expensive hardware with a bunch of mandatory "features" I don't want and are then assuming I'll buy it because it has Playstation on it. Both the PSP and the PS3 are (at least partially) trojan horses for their own proprietary formats that boost the price beyond where it should be, despite the fact that I don't want those formats.

It's the exact opposite of what they did when they entered the gaming market, making a reasonably priced machine (compared to the competition... Saturn was stupidly overpriced) that did everything I wanted and nothing more. They won the market by being the "everyman" machine, and I think they're going to lose it by abandoning that. The Sony gamers liked a decade ago isn't the Sony releasing the PS3.

[judesalmon]

I think the Sony haters are mainly people who resent them for usurping Sega and Nintendo at the top of the gaming tree.

I'm annoyed with them because they're falling into the trap Nintendo fell into a decade ago: "customers will like what we tell them to like because we're the market leaders." They're making extremely expensive hardware with a bunch of mandatory "features" I don't want and are then assuming I'll buy it because it has Playstation on it. Both the PSP and the PS3 are (at least partially) trojan horses for their own proprietary formats that boost the price beyond where it should be, despite the fact that I don't want those formats.

It's the exact opposite of what they did when they entered the gaming market, making a reasonably priced machine (compared to the competition... Saturn was stupidly overpriced) that did everything I wanted and nothing more. They won the market by being the "everyman" machine, and I think they're going to lose it by abandoning that. The Sony gamers liked a decade ago isn't the Sony releasing the PS3.

That's a more well-reasoned answer than most people can come up with.

To say you dislike the company doesn't really make sense - they've made their choices, so if they're offering a product you're not happy, you don't have to buy it. That said, you can always wait for the PS3 to drop in price and get the gaming goodness it has to offer, whereas the irrational haters won't ever be able to buy a PS3.

For me, it offers just what I want at a price I am willing to pay, so I'm happy as Larry.

[jp]

Finally someone on this board knows what he is talking about.

360 is all about FPS games, Halo this Halo that...and I'm so damn glad to see them failed completely in the Japanese market.

For a guy like me who only cares about Japanese game... Sony > MS.

So you're saying that Sony machines are better for narrow minded people?

I didn't say their machines are better, but PS3 will have better games. At least for those who play imports. That was my whole point.

You have a crystal ball?

This is what Sony currently has over MS:
Metal Gear Solid 4
Final Fantasy
Virtua Fighter 5

This is what MS currently has over Sony:
Blue Dragon
Lost Odyssey
Far East of Eden Ziria
Senko no Ronde: Revision X
Lost Planet
Dead Rising
Some Gundam game... I think
Some other Bandai game that looks like Zone of the Enders
Ninety Nine Nights


Yeah, I skimped on some games for BOTH consoles. But you get my point.


Will MS ever take Japan? I doubt it. If Square and Sega weren't mentally challenged I could see MS easily taking Japan... but since the Japanese flock to FF game after FF game... the same way US gamers do for GTA and Madden... well, bleh.

Microsoft has really good Japanese support so far. And to quote Inafune: "...every single developer out there no longer can afford to just look at one territory when making a game. Games are on an international level. If you look at the 360 from an international perspective, it still has a lot of potential. "


In fact, his entire interview is damn good: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/707/707854p1.html

Now, we can assume the PS3 will best the 360 in Japan, yes. Probably on day 1 even. But in the US? Europe? GTA4 is no longer a Sony exclusive. Madden is "supposedly" going to be 360 only this year or sometime (according to MS' press conference). So there is virtually NO reason for US gamers to go with a PS3, a $200 more expensive console. Europe? Did you see how pissed off Ubisoft was at Sony for making a console built on stolen ideas? And then Sony turns around and scolds them? Hell, if Sony loses Ubisoft's support I imagine it'll be yet another major blow in the US but especially Europe. And factor in how much the PS3 costs in Europe... yeah, it doesn't take a crystal ball to see the PS3 is heading for disaster in that area.

The 360 has failed thus far in Japan, yes. But there's been what? Two games that even apply to them? Dead or Alive 4 and Ninety Nine Nights? What about when Blue Dragon, one of the top 5 most anticipated games in the country comes out? Or Lost Planet? Or any other number of Japanese games? The 360 has more than a chance to bounce back in Japan, especially given how damn pointlessly expensive the PS3 is.

I think JP developers are holding back. Waiting to see how everything falls out once the PS3 comes out. Personally, I think Nintendo is going to rule Japan with the Wii. Given how big of a success the DS is... its only logical. And the Wii is so damn cheap to develop for...

But I digress. The 360 had a rough start in Japan yes. But if Blue Dragon, Lost Planet, and the numerous other JP 360 titles remain exclusive, I could see MS being a bit more competitive. I doubt they'll ever dominate Japan, but they could at least put up a good fight. And really, thats all MS has to do to get a shit ton of JP support. They ALREADY have a lot of JP support, and Itagaki and Inafune have both already said they plan to continue supporting MS.

And if someone brings Senko no Ronde: Revision X to the states... then forget it. I imagine it'll be a hit like Ikaruga... and solidfy the "next-gen" console of choice for G.Rev AT LEAST (and Treasure already said they plan on supporting the 360).


As for why I hate Sony and do not hate MS:
I don't mind Windows.
Sony is the root of all evil.

There. I think I've put in enough rants on here where I don't have to go into the "why" for my hatred towards Sony. Mmmm... and being a Sony hater... this E3 and the fallout on most message boards has been truly delightful. Even my boss, a long time Sony fan, is talking about getting a 360 soon.

[The n00b]

You really can't win with either company. Microsoft screws you in the ass with their OS and Sony grabs you by the cock with their inferior shoddily made over priced crap. I don't mean the good kind of grab either. I mean the grab that starts with a loving touch and ends with a painful twist. Fuck Sony marketing.

That said I like the xbox. It's forcing Sony to innovate and making Nintendo go in a different direction. We'd still be looking forward to GT3 point something if it weren't for Forza. Halo showed us that we should expect more from a console fps than just weak Goldeneye clones and killzone. MS also showed us there was room for 2d on a console known for being the most powerful on the market. They gave Tecmo the proper environment for the DOA and Ninja Gaiden series to grow. There's no half baked DMC or God of War on the xbox, thanks to tecmo. Tourist trophy? HA! The motogp series has called the xbox home for years.

So if the xbox 360 is even half as good as the xbox, I'll be waiting for the ps3 to hit the bargain bin and buying a Wii and a 360 instead. However if MS pulls a Sony, I won't act like some fanboy and follow them down to their doom. I'll just be content with a Wii and look forward to the ps4.

[judesalmon]

You have a crystal ball?

This is what Sony currently has over MS:
Metal Gear Solid 4
Final Fantasy
Virtua Fighter 5

This is what MS currently has over Sony:
Blue Dragon
Lost Odyssey
Far East of Eden Ziria
Senko no Ronde: Revision X
Lost Planet
Dead Rising
Some Gundam game... I think
Some other Bandai game that looks like Zone of the Enders
Ninety Nine Nights

What a wholly accurate account.

[jp]

What a wholly accurate account.

Yeah, I skimped on some games for BOTH consoles. But you get my point.

*GASP* Really!?

No shit dude. I was just pointing out that the 360 has a lot more JP support than people make it out to have.

[sethsez]

I think the Sony haters are mainly people who resent them for usurping Sega and Nintendo at the top of the gaming tree.

I'm annoyed with them because they're falling into the trap Nintendo fell into a decade ago: "customers will like what we tell them to like because we're the market leaders." They're making extremely expensive hardware with a bunch of mandatory "features" I don't want and are then assuming I'll buy it because it has Playstation on it. Both the PSP and the PS3 are (at least partially) trojan horses for their own proprietary formats that boost the price beyond where it should be, despite the fact that I don't want those formats.

It's the exact opposite of what they did when they entered the gaming market, making a reasonably priced machine (compared to the competition... Saturn was stupidly overpriced) that did everything I wanted and nothing more. They won the market by being the "everyman" machine, and I think they're going to lose it by abandoning that. The Sony gamers liked a decade ago isn't the Sony releasing the PS3.

That's a more well-reasoned answer than most people can come up with.

To say you dislike the company doesn't really make sense - they've made their choices, so if they're offering a product you're not happy, you don't have to buy it. That said, you can always wait for the PS3 to drop in price and get the gaming goodness it has to offer, whereas the irrational haters won't ever be able to buy a PS3.

For me, it offers just what I want at a price I am willing to pay, so I'm happy as Larry.

I don't hate the company, exactly... as a consumer, I hate their recent actions. They seem to be aiming themselves at being the high-end, "aficionado" gaming company while completely ignoring other demographics. This approach is fine in audio and video because music and movies aren't exclusive so paying more for better performance is a choice rather than a requirement for enjoying said media.

However, this obviously isn't the case in gaming, which leads to resentment among consumers when the player is priced above what they can afford (or are willing to pay). Unlike audio or video there are no cheaper alternatives that play the same media, so people are essentially forced to pay the extreme price for the hardware or ignore games they want to play, and you wind up with a lot of annoyed people who are feling screwed. This is why price is much, much more important in gaming hardware than in other, similar types of hardware, and why I think their "aficionado" approach is fundamentally flawed.

[Turrican]

Hirai & c. have said at E3 that there are like 100 millions of PS2 in our homes and they're not going anywhere soon. Sony talks to continue to support the system.

I guess this is... bad news. Yeah. The fact that they seem to rely on PS2, makes PS3 look like not a replacement, but the high-end expensive model in the family. Once again, like they did with PSX (not the original, that big crap lump Kiken mentioned before), they're adopting an hi-fi marketing strategy to the games' industry.

Only, it doesn't work that way with games. Because you can play Mozart on a $50 player or on a $5000 one, but you will play MGS4 only on PS3.

Last generation, I bought a PS2 quite late (after MGS2 eur launch), bought a Cube quite early (Prime bundle) eventually regretting it, and overlooked a system that surely got some of the best deals these years (Xbox).

This generation - heck, first of all, I'd need a new tv set. A nice, gorgeous HD tv where all my dvds and even whs and gaming device will look like shit. I can't wait to see when they're expect me to buy again all my anime in HD media - and it ain't gonna happen.

I mean - some months ago on jp's thread the momentarily conclusion was that it was sony's game to drop the ball. And this E3 wasn't exactly stellar for them (heck, they managed to even offer you less than PS2 does - since dualshock is without vibration now). Heavenly Swords looks good, but not worthy-of-$200-more than Gears of War.

What does justify these $200 more? They have only vaguely hinted at online services, while 360 already lets you downloading Geometry Wars and Contra. Sure, the have 1080p - that will be awesome, let's say, ten years from now, when maybe 1080p tvs will be spread over europe. Maybe. (Of course, ten years from now, the raw power of a Cell-equipped PS3 will excite us as the PSone is now)

They have lost brands - ridge racer, GTA - all stuff you can find somewhere else too.

So yes, the most obvious advantage they still have really is something with zero technology in it: the words "playstation" on the chassis. The very synonym of "videogame" worldwide. Then again as Atari and Nintendo have been at their time. And they crumbled.

I used to think they could flood the market with PSPs and just wait for the success to arrive - now I'm not even so sure about that. Makaimura's still the only title that remotely sounds fun in the next months. And there's no doubt that DS had a much stronger lineup at this E3 too. It's Yoshi Island and Zelda against... huh, Metal Gear digital comic, guys.

Yeah, speaking of Snake - "Old Snake" is truly the best symbol of Sony these days. It's an old drama that comes to an end - the hero is tired of war, the director wants to put an end and do different things - it's curtain call. The end of the show. And it sounds glorious, every bit of it. You see the silver mullet and think how great were the PSone days - honestly, I feel like I'm bound to PS3 just to end that. And I'm sure it draws its old fans, but not a single people more. Kojima himself said it was a game aimed to the old audience - his own generation. Perhaps these words might be true for PS3 as well.

So, has Sony dropped the ball? Maybe the real question should be - is there a competitor that can truly replace it? Somehow I don't see Microsoft doing it - you can't beat the original at his own game. And the brand "xbox" - the green colour - it's all stuff only some nerd would love. Sure, they're the kind of hardcore users that usually work as "propeller" for sales, as bloodflowers said. But it's not gonna break the wall of the hardcore fan, I'd say. There's a winning name like "PlayStation" once every - well, the only other one was GameBoy, really.

Xbox actually is a lot like their brand hero, Master Chief - a cool armored warrior, a bit faceless, lacking personality. He looks strong but it's the same cheap allure WWF, or Dead or Alive if you want - it's stuff for geeks. And he stars in a game that was invented in the west, on pc. And for all intent and purposes, the best things that genre brought to the pc scene were the free Doom demo and the freely modified Counterstrike - to have it repackaged into a console game does sound like deviation from the original underground inspiration. Much like the Xbox was a repackaged pc.

But anyway - Microsoft and Sony' software lineups are interchangeable, and I can't see Microsoft taking the lead just because PS3 is more expensive - if gamers really were that intelligent, they'll realize that they can play gothams and titfighters already on their regular Xbox and wouldn't even switch to next-gen at all.

Sony is the exact opposite that they were during psone days, yes, but when it comes to software, it's not like Microsoft suddenly is fresh or offers groundbreaking news. Far from that.

Then there's Nintendo - you know, last time the whole "nintendo difference" was a big screw for me - all I got was a gameboy player with an horribly twisted dualshock and the ability to play iterations of big N games - none of which was exactly awesome. Zelda arguably had seen better days, Metroid was cool for the atmosphere and the fact that you were saying "incredible! they got it in 3D - right! and at first attempt!" Except it really wasn't. Would comment on Mario Sunshine but, would you believe? I intentionally avoided it.

Okay, so the cube was a gbplaying playstation with few games, poor third party support, and available in lovely orange and violet shades.

But Wii aims to be much more. Yeah - except, will it recreate the unbelievably positive trend of DS? I can't really say for now - it's cheap, it's built with mine tv set in mind, and I will buy it. But, you know? I'm already leaning to play, if I must, Twilight Princess cube rather than Wii. Slashing the air with a remote sounds exciting for like, thirty minutes, before your arm aches and you realize you look like a Power-Glove suited dork.

But it's not even that - the Wiimote is awesome, it will create wonderful gaming moments I'm sure. But in order for nintendo to win, it must allow goodness into its realm. GTA. Silent Hill. And in unadulterated form. Nintendo still doesn't allow that. It's so limited - I can kill my wife, go crazy and commit suicide in SH2, then swap disc and enjoy Katamari. If Wii won't allow the same thing, no matter if you control games via ESP powers, it's still a (huge) stepback.

So in short - Microsoft offering might be cheaper, and marginally better, but being roughly the same it won't surpass Sony. [edit: or maybe it will, who knows ]
And Nintendo is still willingly aiming at a niche market - it doesn't offer product for everyone on their console, so they can't win.

Sony is shitty these days but the others aren't exactly brilliant.

Wrote too much, get back to play some DS...

[sethsez]

And there's no doubt that DS had a much stronger lineup at this E3 too. It's Yoshi Island and Zelda against... huh, Metal Gear digital comic, guys.

Um. And a full Metal Gear Solid game, and a Silent Hill prequel. I love the DS, but the PSP's E3 showing was a bit more than just the Metal Gear digital comic.

[Turrican]

But I digress. The 360 had a rough start in Japan yes. But if Blue Dragon, Lost Planet, and the numerous other JP 360 titles remain exclusive, I could see MS being a bit more competitive.

Look, not to sound like a cynic bastard. But really - RPGs are the most stale and conservative genre ever. Have you ever seen many brands getting largely successful? Nope, it's still all about Dragon Quest (or I'd rather say "Toriyamaesque character design") and Final Fantasy. All the others fare well, like the Tales series lately, but nothing groundbreaking. Level 5 last one, Rogue, had stellar voice cast and massive production value, and rest sure that it won't achieve the same everlasting appeal of DQ and FF. Why? because quite simply it wasn't there, in blocky glory FC days, when Japanese kids got their imprinting.

To think Blue Dragon will become the next hot thing because there is Sakaguchi behind, is like to think Spirits Within had chances in theaters.

[icycalm]

Nice post. It will probably play out as you say. I am even more pessimistic about Nintendo than you are, though. They are going to stay in the hardware business for a little while longer, but their desperate attempts to stay afloat won't get them much further.

What's ironic is that 90% of the best DS games could very easily have been made for PSP. If you just added a stylus to the PSP that figure would rise to 100%. The second screen is a useless gimmick and the system is woefully underpowered. We'll just have to wait until MS releases a super-powerful handheld with a single touchscreen in a couple of years' time.

The Wii is similar to the DS in a way. The only thing it brings to the table is a new kind of controller. Think of it as a light gun and maracas and bongos and fishing controller all rolled into one. Even then, it's still made for 2-3 genres. For everything else you'll have to turn to Sony/MS. No one's being fooled by Nintendo, other than the fools. And they'll understand what's going on eventually. The developers certainly understand.

And eventually the Wii-mote will become just another accessory you buy for your console--or it comes bundled with it. And Nintendo will go the way of Sega.

[Turrican]

And there's no doubt that DS had a much stronger lineup at this E3 too. It's Yoshi Island and Zelda against... huh, Metal Gear digital comic, guys.

Um. And a full Metal Gear Solid game, and a Silent Hill prequel. I love the DS, but the PSP's E3 showing was a bit more than just the Metal Gear digital comic.

A bit more - but not much more. Snake can't save Sony's ass all the time. And the Silent Hill prequel - outsourced to external developer Climax - sounds good to SH fans - hopefully for them at least.

[Turrican]

What's ironic is that 90% of the best DS games could very easily have been made for PSP. If you just added a stylus to the PSP that figure would rise to 100%. The second screen is a useless gimmick and the system is woefully underpowered. We'll just have to wait until MS releases a super-powerful handheld with a single touchscreen in a couple of years' time.

It's not so ironic, it's just true. Come on, we're all grownups, we don't really think the magic is hidden in hardware features, do we? A stylus and a mic are a plus, but in the end it all comes down to men and their choices.

For example, if we put a real MAN, let's say everyone's favorite samurai Maegawa-san in charge of PSP software, he clearly would call Iga on his cellphone and you'd have SOTN-like games with GGX-like resolution once per year.
Then, he'd call SNK and would secure some great Metal Slug port or something.

PSP (read: any hardware) has nothing wrong per se. It just happens to be ruled by marketing assholes.

On the opposite, Ouendan, Phoenix Wright and such aren' great because of DS functions - the real great thing is that some smart guy at Nintendo got to play them and being a gamer said "OK, you can publish it!".

[sethsez]

Rumors are that Yoshi's Island 2 has been outsourced to Artoon, which means it's dead in the water unless they suddenly and unexpectedly develop talent. It's sad because I was hopeful before I heard that news.

So, has Sony dropped the ball? Maybe the real question should be - is there a competitor that can truly replace it? Somehow I don't see Microsoft doing it - you can't beat the original at his own game. And the brand "xbox" - the green colour - it's all stuff only some nerd would love.

Xbox actually is a lot like their brand hero, Master Chief - a cool armored warrior, a bit faceless, lacking personality. He looks strong but it's the same cheap allure WWF, or Dead or Alive if you want - it's stuff for geeks.

There's a reason the Xbox has the nickname "Fratbox". It's hugely popular with jocks and the like. While other games are for "faggots" or whatever else they'd call you for playing them, that segment of the population loves Halo. Xbox is generally perceived as the "coolest" of the three by most non-gamers, and Halo is a massive reason for that.

[dave4shmups]

Lately, I like Microsoft a lot better, because of the fact that they give a crap about casual/traditional games, as evidenced by XBLA. The 360 is, IMO, the best example of a console that combines traditional and next gen gaming since the Dreamcast.

You must be joking.

Microsoft couldn't give two craps for tradition, They've put themselves in an irreversable situation in Japan as they are unable to give the Japanese any worthwhile games and keep bombarding the system with first person shooters aimed at their core teenage American demographic.

Xbox Live Arcade is nothing but a payday for large developers, What happened to the promise that small and indie developers would have a market on Live Arcade to showcase new titles? Everything chosen so far has been done to improve the profile of the system via the media.

At E3 half of the games shown were FMV and of the 30ish titles on the showfloor in video/playable 22 were first person shooter variants.

Look at what they've done to the Shadowrun license, A complete lack of ideas has resulted in one of the most well developed story driven adventure titles being turned into a thoughless counterstrike clone.

The system is a one trick pony and Microsoft are making gaming a totally insular experience for their users.

No, I'm not joking, and nowhere did I indicate that I was attempting to compare the J-PS2 and the 360, so I don't why anyone brought that up. There are PLENTY of indie developed games on the 360; 21-6 Productions, based in the silicon mecca of Littleton Colorado ( ) have a game called Orbz that you can get on XBLA. And if these games aren't casual, what are they? XBLA has not a single FPS on it. And as far as that goes, most of the games on both the PS3 and the 360 will probably end up being FPS's.

And I agree completely with Turrican (well, except about continued support for my PS2 ) about the PS3-why the hell should anyone pay $200 extra (well, more then that if the 360 does indeed drop in price later this year) for a PS3 when they've lost just about everything good, other then Insomniac, and when not a single PS3 game we've seen so far looks any better then most 360 games? Cripes, I realize it's still in development, but PS3 Warhawk doesn't even match Crimson Skies, graphically speaking.

[GaijinPunch]

On a side note, Bill Gates is the world's biggest philanthropist--past and present. He has done more good as one person than many smaller nations have.

He's got more money than most small nations.

arcade market is doomed anyway, even in japan its just a shadow of it's former self,

Well, it's very wavey, but relatively speaking, it's a healthy market. Gotta remember -- 80's in Japan were a ridiculous bubble. All leisure markets suck now compared to then.

[Turrican]

Rumors are that Yoshi's Island 2 has been outsourced to Artoon, which means it's dead in the water unless they suddenly and unexpectedly develop talent. It's sad because I was hopeful before I heard that news.

You got me - it doesn't even look that hot from the first screens in fact. Something about Yoshi's sprite not being quite right. [edit= to tell the whole truth, I'm quite cautious on Phantom Hourglass too, but you get my point]

However - what's the point of all this? I stated that A) so far DS library has the edge B) this E3 DS had again an overall stronger position, or at least it felt that way.

We can continue discussion, but tell me if you believe these two issues not being true.

There's a reason the Xbox has the nickname "Fratbox". It's hugely popular with jocks and the like. While other games are for "faggots" or whatever else they'd call you for playing them, that segment of the population loves Halo. Xbox is generally perceived as the "coolest" of the three by most non-gamers, and Halo is a massive reason for that.

Sure- but you're talking with yankee mindset. I don't believe the situation to be like that over here. Perhaps european are all "faggots" compared to the Chuck Norris way of life
PlayStation built a sort of "family" aura around its brand - dads know that GTA is evil but they buy Spyro to kids and play Minna no Golf with their wives - or at least, that sounds like a possible scenario.
The same kid will probably think Master Chief is the "coolest", but what the others would play? And the green color would not match well with furniture. ^_^

[The n00b]

Wow why wouldn't the ps2 be the most popular with non gamers? Why else would has been franchises like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, and Gran Turismo be wildly popular on the ps2? If these people were "real" gamers and cared about gameplay, they would be playing Splinter Cell, the latest bioware rpg, or Forza.

Of course if I was a "real hardcore gamer" I'd be playing stuff like Disgaea and whatever shmup came to the ps2. So really the mainstream pinning on a console is kind of pointless. I've also never heard the name Fratbox. Seems like word that guys who dress up in Final Fantasy cosplay came up with...in their darkest basements...while watching tapes of Dragon Ball Z...subbed of course. Dubbed is SO mainstream.

[sethsez]

You got me - it doesn't even look that hot from the first screens in fact. Something about Yoshi's sprite not being quite right.

However - what's the point of all this? I stated that A) so far DS library has the edge B) this E3 DS had again an overall stronger position, or at least it felt that way.

We can continue discussion, but tell me if you believe these two issues not being true.

I think the DS has stronger brands behind it right now, but the execution of those brands is what worries me. Yoshi's Island 2 being done by Artoon, Starfox having been screwed up several times in the recent past, Zelda's control looks a bit odd and unneeded, etc... as of right now I think the PSP has more games that look genuinely good, and the DS has more names that look genuinely good. How things'll turn out remains to be seen, but as a DS owner I obviously hope they don't screw the pooch on this.

Sure- but you're talking with yankee mindset. I don't believe the situation to be like that over here. Perhaps european are all "faggots" compared to the Chuck Norris way of life
PlayStation built a sort of "family" aura around its brand - dads know that GTA is evil but they buy Spyro to kids and play Minna no Golf with their wives - or at least, that sounds like a possible scenario.
The same kid will probably think Master Chief is the "coolest", but what the others would play? And the green color would not match well with furniture. ^_^

Well, with a price tag of $600 I don't imagine the PS3 is going to be a "family toy" for a while, which is why I said earlier this move is Sony shooting themselves in the foot by abandoning the people who made them huge in the first place. Nintendo is trying to broaden appeal, Microsoft is sticking with their fanbase, and Sony is (bafflingly enough) excluding those who've been fans in the past.

In any case, you said it was "geeky" and I was commenting on that. The Xbox, at least here, isn't perceived as geeky. It's also not perceived as a family console, but that's a different issue that I wasn't addressing.

[dave4shmups]

I don't give a crap what the XBOX is "called", or what demographic likes it the most-I love it, and there are plenty of games on it that are not FPS or sports titles.

And with that, I shall quit this debate, which is pointless to begin with, because some people will always hate Sony, and some Microsoft. Play what you like, I'm off to watch some videos from E3.

[Turrican]

I think the DS has stronger brands behind it right now, but the execution of those brands is what worries me. Yoshi's Island 2 being done by Artoon, Starfox having been screwed up several times in the recent past, Zelda's control looks a bit odd and unneeded, etc... as of right now I think the PSP has more games that look genuinely good, and the DS has more names that look genuinely good. How things'll turn out remains to be seen, but as a DS owner I obviously hope they don't screw the pooch on this.

I beg to disagree - Nintendo DS won the press hearts for some reasons. 1) some unique games that make decent use of the novelties 2) Nintendogs and 3) some quite well excuted installments of famous franchises: Advance Wars, Mario Kart, Phoenix Wright, Castlevania: it's all stuff that was awesome before and that DS didn't compromise.

Now how many franchises were successfully ported over PSP? Wipeout? Fine. And how many felt like, good spent money, instead of "yes, this burnout is nice, but why the heck I am not playing the home version on my 29'tv?"

You talk of games and names that look genuinely good or not - but what about plain plain good games? The DS has definitely an edge - and it shows.

Well, with a price tag of $600 I don't imagine the PS3 is going to be a "family toy" for a while, which is why I said earlier this move is Sony shooting themselves in the foot by abandoning the people who made them huge in the first place. Nintendo is trying to broaden appeal, Microsoft is sticking with their fanbase, and Sony is (bafflingly enough) excluding those who've been fans in the past.

And I'd agree - except Kutaragi continues to say that he hit big with a product that costed three time as much as competitors:

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=64646

EDIT= no, wait. I do retract this bit.

[GaijinPunch]

The second screen is a useless gimmick and the system is woefully underpowered.

This should be a testament that it is about the games and not the power.

And about Nintendo hardware going out the door? Aren't we tired of this complaint yet? People have been saying it for years. Sure enough, that's internet people that don't know the first thing about economics (granted, that's most people on the internet and forums like this one) but Nintendo show no signs of going anywhere.