Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 480p?

[Paranoid_Andy]

I'll have to think about this more but at least there are some possibilities to make this work. I feel at this point a CMS is the better choice to keep things simple.

Once again, thank you Fudoh for the input. Much appreciated

I'll let you know what I end up doing and how it goes.

[wildchild22]

Has anyone tested to see if the extron will accept analog audio and component video from a game console and output both sound and video over hdmi?
I am not sure if the analog audio input will accept an unbalanced consumer level input or not.

[Fudoh]

Of course. Works fine. On my PS2 > OSSC > 301 chain I bypass the OSSC for audio and directly route audio into the 301 anyway.

[dc_coder_84]

Is there a linedoubler available to get 4K out of the OSSC + Extron chain? A device for line2x 1080p?

[Fudoh]

I have both an IN1804 and a DSC HD-HD 4K Plus, both terrific 4K scalers, but technically not "pure" linedoublers.

[Unseen]

Is there a linedoubler available to get 4K out of the OSSC + Extron chain? A device for line2x 1080p?

Technically some of the HDFury devices (e.g. Vertex) can be configured to convert 1080p to 2160p, but I have no idea about the quality or how strict their definition of "1080p" is.

[orange808]

The new 4k HDFury machines demand standard 1080p timings. They don't work with the OSSC directly, but they should be fine running behind the DSC 301 HD.

AFAIK, the HDFury boxes are not truly 4:4:4 machines, so there's some loss. Although, for retro gaming purposes, it probably isn't a big deal.

Although, in most situations, I bet the display's scaling will look just as good or better. Most people wouldn't need to buy the HDFury.

[TrantaLocked_]

I'm having an issue with the DSC 301 where sending an HDMI 480p signal upscaled to 1080p softens the right-most vertical line a bit, while the left vertical line is clean. If I move the picture so the left side is off-frame, the right side becomes clean again, so it's like the DSC 301 can't have a clean line on both sides at the same time or something. Direct to my HDTV, built in upscaling is clean on both sides, and I confirmed it isn't cutting off the sides so I'm seeing the exact same amount of information.

I messed with every setting in the DSC 301 I had access to. I assume it's due to a difference in upscaling technique but it does kind of bother me especially when it seems the DSC 301 is probably capable of having both sides clean, but ends up only having the left side clean in 1080p output. At least the DSC 301s upscaling quality is still amazing compared to the HDTV's.

[strygo]

I have both an IN1804 and a DSC HD-HD 4K Plus, both terrific 4K scalers, but technically not "pure" linedoublers.

How does the DSC HD-HD 4K Plus compare to the DSC 301 HD?

[Fudoh]

@TrantaLocked: you could try padding the input signal on one side (reducing the active input area by 1px.
Or you can try to set the active output size to 1918 instead and centering the resulting image, leaving 1px on both sides black.

How does the DSC HD-HD 4K Plus compare to the DSC 301 HD?

basically identical, minus the analogue inputs and with 4K input and output capabilities instead.

[TrantaLocked_]

@TrantaLocked: you could try padding the input signal on one side (reducing the active input area by 1px.
Or you can try to set the active output size to 1918 instead and centering the resulting image, leaving 1px on both sides black.

I tried for hours. You can't change the active area input on HDMI to the DSC 301 HD, only on analog inputs, and I tried everything I could with output settings. The thing is that I'm trying to fit the 4:3 picture into a 1920x1080 (1080p) frame, so that blur on the right side of the active picture can't be moved out of the way. The DSC 301 doesn't allow custom resolutions so I can't output to something like 1440x1080; it has to be within the frame formats they give me, and while there are many output resolutions, there aren't enough to cover every use case. And I'm trying to send something pixel perfect (either 1080p or 1440x1080) to the TV so it doesn't have to add latency to do its inferior upscaling, so it has to be 4:3 picture in 1080p frame given my apparent options.

So for example, if I'm sending 640x480 or 720x480 (480p) -> DSC 301 -> 480p output on my TV and move the picture around in Extron PCS, I can actually see that all the borders of the active picture are blurred. However in some cases like the specific one I'm trying to do, 720x480-> DSC 301 -> 1080p, the left border is clean while the right border is blurred. And by blurred I mean like, colors bleeding into each other at the very last three right-side vertical lines; there is nothing more or less being rendered from the source, just pixel blur. I assume this has to do with poor compensation for non-integer divisible scaling of most resolutions into 1080p, but I really don't know. However, the scaling looks fine direct to my monitor and my HDTV, so why is it the DSC 301 can't scale lower resolutions to 1080p without blurring the borders?

This is why I want to ask any DSC 301 HD owners to confirm whether they have experienced this. I tested my unit on its initial 1.20.0001 firmware, then updated to 1.26.0001, and had the same problem. The scaling and features are great otherwise but this does bug me, in addition to not being able to output custom resolutions. If there is a way to edit a config that allows custom resolutions or input active area on HDMI, do tell. It would be weird if this were somehow a bug on just my unit which I highly doubt, but it's not a topic I've seen discussed elsewhere.

Edit: So there is a way to do custom resolutions but it requires editing an EDID file and adding that to the software and using three custom presets, and while the manual suggests SIS is required for doing this, I've seen that before about the front panel lock which ended up being available to change in PCS anyway. In addition to making a 1440x1080 EDID, I'd also like to make or find an EDID with a specific input color space compatibility if it's possible to include that info in an EDID in a way the Extron software can understand.

Edit 2:I don't see 1440x1080 anywhere in the EDID standard resolutions on wikipedia, so there isn't a bit to define it in an EDID file. Or is there? Could I send a custom 1440x1080 resolution from my PC to the DSC 301, and grab the EDID that way? No, I don't think I can grab an EDID from an input source.

[Fudoh]

custom resolution like 1440x1080p should be possible. You need the Edid Manager Software from Extron and PCS to upload the particular EDID file to one of the custom output resolution slots. If you need the software, send me a PM. https://media.extron.com/public/img/gal ... 1r_lwg.jpg

Which particular source are you using? I used 480p extensively on the 301 and can't say that I noticed any blurred borders. But then again most sources have a slight underscan, so you usually don't see what happens to the most outside pixels.

[TrantaLocked_]

custom resolution like 1440x1080p should be possible. You need the Edid Manager Software from Extron and PCS to upload the particular EDID file to one of the custom output resolution slots.

Which particular source are you using? I used 480p extensively on the 301 and can't say that I noticed any blurred borders. But then again most sources have a slight underscan, so you usually don't see what happens to the most outside pixels.

I'm testing 480p in 1080p frame from an Xbox 360 and also from a desktop computer, same thing where right border of active picture is blurry. I will also in the future use an OSSC from an original Xbox. I'm pretty sure it isn't underscan because again when I move the picture so the left side is off frame I can see the right side go from blurry to sharp, then back if I move the picture completely into frame. Nothing extra is being shown or hidden, it's the same pixels that absolutely can be shown sharp but aren't. I know it sounds weird why it would go from sharp to blurry depending on if I move the left side out of frame but that is what happens. When the entire thing is in frame, the left border is clean and the right is blurry, both can't be clean at the same time. Later I will show you pictures of what I'm seeing.

[strygo]

basically identical, minus the analogue inputs and with 4K input and output capabilities instead.

Does it do a better job scaling to 4K than the displays you've seen (across 480p/720p/1080p)? Were you able to get one used or are these still only available new? I can't find an MSRP. Now I want one.

[Fudoh]

definitely, yes. I bought a 2nd hand one. Still expensive enough. I have only access to the school & university prices (which is 1600 EUR before tax for the 4K Plus A model, so regular MSRP is maybe around 2200 EUR before tax at the moment.)

For most setups external scaling to 1080p and secondary scaling through the display should be fine though, especially with a 301 only costing 100-150 EUR on ebay.

[TrantaLocked_]

I messed with AW EDID editor and was able to get some different forms of 1440x1080 to the custom slot 1 in the Extron PCS software, and it didn't solve the problem. Now I pretty much confirm that unless you're passing through the signal at same resolution so the TV handles upscaling, the DSC 301 upscaler can't seem to keep both sides of the picture clean; only the left side. Then if you move the left side off-frame it makes the right side clean, I guess because it resets the reference point for the scaling algorithm. Or it's some other bug and I might be describing what's happening incorrectly. But it appears like it's adding a white blurred line to the last few lines of the active picture, and I doubt this is a necessary feature of the upscaler.

The only way to really "solve" this is either by moving the picture to the right so the TV cutoff hides the blurring, or to the left so the right side becomes clean, but then you're hiding one or two lines of picture information and the image isn't centered. That isn't a good solution in my opinion.

[Fudoh]

Without actually testing it: I think that the blurred edges are just caused by scaling "into black" (you might think the same when you call it reference point). The scaling engine interpolates between pixel columns and lines and for the columns on the edges the interpolation is done using a black reference lines next to the active image.

Yes, you can't mask these when running a 1920x1080p output with an active 4:3 window, but with a 1440x1080 output, I don't understand why you can't move both sides off screen by simple making the picture 1 or 2 px wider?

[TrantaLocked_]

Without actually testing it: I think that the blurred edges are just caused by scaling "into black" (you might think the same when you call it reference point). The scaling engine interpolates between pixel columns and lines and for the columns on the edges the interpolation is done using a black reference lines next to the active image.

Yes, you can't mask these when running a 1920x1080p output with an active 4:3 window, but with a 1440x1080 output, I don't understand why you can't move both sides off screen by simple making the picture 1 or 2 px wider?

Is this the price that is paid for sharper upscaling for the bulk of the active picture? My TV never shows blurred borders on lower resolution sources, but at the same time the TVs upscaling is also notably blurrier than the DSC 301's.

I still don't get how the scaler determines the positioning of the source pixels on a larger grid that is not a perfect product of the original resolution. Does it drop some or even most of the source pixels? For example 1440/640 = 2.25, so most of the original pixel values can't actually be preserved, and most of the viewed information will be the result of how the scaler interpolated, correct? I am looking into it but I thought I'd ask here since you might be able to put it better in this context.

[Fudoh]

My TV never shows blurred borders on lower resolution sources, but at the same time the TVs upscaling is also notably blurrier than the DSC 301's.

your TV is likely always masking those borders, either by the edge of the panel or by the "virtual" pillar boxes when using 4:3.
It's a bit hard to judge without seeing what you're seeing though.

I still don't get how the scaler determines the positioning of the source pixels on a larger grid that is not a perfect product of the original resolution. Does it drop some or even most of the source pixels?

no source pixel is ever 100% preserved. Doesn't matter if you use an integer scaling factor or not. It's always run through the same algorithm, using information from a grid of neighbouring pixels. The only way to preserve original pixels with scaling is a device like the OSSC, which was made for that particular task. Any other "universal" scaler will always completely re-calculate each pixel.

[TrantaLocked_]

My TV never shows blurred borders on lower resolution sources, but at the same time the TVs upscaling is also notably blurrier than the DSC 301's.

your TV is likely always masking those borders, either by the edge of the panel or by the "virtual" pillar boxes when using 4:3.
It's a bit hard to judge without seeing what you're seeing though.

I still don't get how the scaler determines the positioning of the source pixels on a larger grid that is not a perfect product of the original resolution. Does it drop some or even most of the source pixels?

no source pixel is ever 100% preserved. Doesn't matter if you use an integer scaling factor or not. It's always run through the same algorithm, using information from a grid of neighbouring pixels. The only way to preserve original pixels with scaling is a device like the OSSC, which was made for that particular task. Any other "universal" scaler will always completely re-calculate each pixel.

Well I tested 720p and 640x480 both direct to TV and passthrough via DSC 301, and messed with positioning on the passthrough and 1080p upscaled in the DSC 301, and the TV is for sure not hiding anything.

[Fudoh]

Well I tested 720p and 640x480 both direct to TV and passthrough via DSC 301, and messed with positioning on the passthrough in the DSC 301, and the TV is for sure not hiding anything.

sure about that? I think your TV is hiding the -1 pixel column as well as the 641 column while this is what you see on the 301.
If you have the possibility to bring up a test pattern with 1px-wide vertical bars, it should be pretty easy to tell what's going on.

I'll hook up an Extron this afternoon and have a look.

[Fudoh]

OK, confirmed what you're seeing. The right edge is showing a blurred column because of the interpolation with the "off" area next to it. On other scalers you're usually seeing this on both sides. On the Extron is seems as if the left edge is masked while the right isn't. I would also prefer if both were identical (while I would prefer the blurred edge on both sides - as it better fits the general scaling for 480p content. The masked edge is too sharp compared to all on-screen object edges).

But, really, once you're able to set the output to 4:3, so your TV provides the masking and once you increase the picture size by 1-2 px, both edges look identical. Shouldn't be an issue for you any longer with the added custom resolution.

[TrantaLocked_]

OK, confirmed what you're seeing. The right edge is showing a blurred column because of the interpolation with the "off" area next to it. On other scalers you're usually seeing this on both sides. On the Extron is seems as if the left edge is masked while the right isn't. I would also prefer if both were identical (while I would prefer the blurred edge on both sides - as it better fits the general scaling for 480p content. The masked edge is too sharp compared to all on-screen object edges).

But, really, once you're able to set the output to 4:3, so your TV provides the masking and once you increase the picture size by 1-2 px, both edges look identical. Shouldn't be an issue for you any longer with the added custom resolution.

This is why I'm wondering how Extron samples the original pixels, because an aligned grid on grid placement would result in the borders looking the same in the upscaled image, but if there's extra space because Extron is trying to get the pixel alignment mathematically cleaner for a better output, then there might be some interpolation to black on the right and bottom borders. But in the latter case, I believe information is actually being lost and my tests confirmed this, in that the scaler basically removes the final line, and fills it in with an interpolation of the 2nd to last and a black line. The proportions of the upscaled picture remain proper and very high quality, but at the cost of a slight bit of noise replacing the outer one or two lines. It also looks like the 3rd and 2nd to last lines are being brightened a bit making the effect even more noticeable, and this I can't explain.

In the end, I'd rather go with what the DSC 301 is doing than stretch or hide more of the picture in the 1440x1080 output. Ideally, I'd also want the same quality scaling with identical borders and without losing information, but i'm not sure that can happen. I mean look at Extron's history, product and software lineup. These guys are really good at what they do. It's part of what made me so confident in buying the unit in the first place.

[Splozion]

Has anyone used this with the 1.5 OSSC (DVI out)? I have only been able to make the HDMI input with other devices, Can only get the OSSC working through an HDFury2. If I have to use that it's an acceptable solution to get 5x on my 4k display, but if I could stay digital that would be better imo.

[Fudoh]

my "on hand" testing device is a DVI-only OSSC. Zero problems on the Extron 301 except for the a few output resolutions using SNES without a dejitter mod as a source.

[Splozion]

my "on hand" testing device is a DVI-only OSSC. Zero problems on the Extron 301 except for the a few output resolutions using SNES without a dejitter mod as a source.

Is there any OSSC-specific settings that could interrupt it? I will have to try a different cable(as well as different sources, currently I've been using a PAL PS2), could be possible that my 301 is damaged, the port has a fair number of scrapes around it from previous owners. The menu seems to show no detection at all.

[Fudoh]

are you using a DVI to HDMI cable ? DVI/HDMI adapter plugs are often rubbish.

Your OSSC displays a greyramp pattern without a source, right ? This also doesn't show on the Extron ? What the does Extron info screen say about the input ?

[Splozion]

are you using a DVI to HDMI cable ? DVI/HDMI adapter plugs are often rubbish.

Your OSSC displays a greyramp pattern without a source, right ? This also doesn't show on the Extron ? What the does Extron info screen say about the input ?

Tried both a DVI to HDMI cable and two different DVI to HDMI adapters. I have been trying the OSSC on its own but the info screen just says DVI N/A, same as it does with no cable connected. Works fine with everything else HDMI I've tried (AVS, Carby, Retrotink2x, Super NT, etc). Could be possible that there's some setting in the desktop software that is preventing it, but I'm sure I factory reset the 301 when I got it.

[bellerophon]

I don't have an account but I did manage to find a friendly contact within Extron willing to grab a few downloads for me

Dear friend,
Is it possible your Extron friendly contact to be willing to grab the latest firmware v2.14 for the Extron DVS 304 also ?

[strygo]

Is this true? Have read some conflicting statements on this, some saying it's amazing and others saying it's merely okay.

It's a whole lot cheaper and easier to find than a Crystalio II, that much is for sure.

The 301 HD paired with an OSSC is a great combination. It resolves some of the issues you'll have with certain displays and gives you control over scaling 720p and 960p to 1080p. I've found that it produces a better result scaling 720p to 1080p on my 4K Vizio display.

I can't speak to whether it's better than a Crystalio II - I've never been able to find one affordable enough for me.