Mister FPGA vs Real Hardware, Any Regrets?

[Fudoh]

Actually I'm not familiar with his newer stuff. I had the NT Mini in mind, which I believe supports both output modes, but I could be wrong.

I think you can adjust the speed of the core, yes, but the HDMI's refresh isn't adjust along with it. Just the other way around as on the MiSTer, where you can adjust the output refresh, but not the core speed.

I don't know what Sorgelig's position on this particular point is

Nobody should criticize him. He's done such amazing work, but the whole mindset in the core community is centered around recreation of the original experience and not handing the user all the control that might be possible. That will hopefully change over time, but right now everybody's rushing from new core to new core and nobody takes the time to adjust the basics and to enhance the user options. For what it's worth, I think MiSTer should at least be able to offer all the user options (in terms of video settings) that the Analogue units do. Setting interpolation through the filter files is silly. Most of the currently available filters can and should be replaced by a good set of sliders and check boxes.

[Johnpv]

Nobody should criticize him. He's done such amazing work, but the whole mindset in the core community is centered around recreation of the original experience and not handing the user all the control that might be possible. That will hopefully change over time, but right now everybody's rushing from new core to new core and nobody takes the time to adjust the basics and to enhance the user options. For what it's worth, I think MiSTer should at least be able to offer all the user options (in terms of video settings) that the Analogue units do. Setting interpolation through the filter files is silly. Most of the currently available filters can and should be replaced by a good set of sliders and check boxes.

This right here is well said.

[fernan1234]

Using interpolation itself feels kind of silly to me when you can simply use integer scaling. But I may be less exposed to the hassle as I'm mainly a CRT user. And interpolation settings are set-and-forget. Once you found the right one, you save settings and never have to flip through filters again.

That said, such conveniences would be nice indeed for any user. More ease-of-use features, and even a more Pi-like user interface will probably happen eventually. But all such features will, and IMO should, continue to take a back seat relative to the main mission of the project.

[shroom2k]

MiSTer actually doesn't support horizontal integer scaling.

[fernan1234]

MiSTer actually doesn't support horizontal integer scaling.

Yes it does. Maybe you mean it doesn't do separate scaling for both axes, but it scales both windowed within the resolution in use (ideally 1080p). If integer scaling is enabled, there won't be shimmering on either direction.

[shroom2k]

MiSTer actually doesn't support horizontal integer scaling.

Yes it does. Maybe you mean it doesn't do separate scaling for both axes, but it scales both windowed within the resolution in use (ideally 1080p). If integer scaling is enabled, there won't be shimmering on either direction.

That's what I assumed, until I noticed rather bad shimmering in the NES core, even with integer scaling in 1080p. I don't think it outputs the console's original pixel rate. It seems to stretch it to 4:3 or something.

[Fudoh]

shroom2k is right on this one. MiSTer's current devs don't share your thoughts on integer scaling. Aspect ratio is always enforced, without consideration for horizontal integer scaling. This is why you get a whole ton of scaling filters instead that add the much needed horizontal interpolation.

Again, options are nice. I prefer interpolation over integer scaling, because of the flexibility in aspect ratio. If you prefer integer scales, then this should be an option for you.

[6t8k]

Actually I'm not familiar with his newer stuff. I had the NT Mini in mind, which I believe supports both output modes, but I could be wrong.

I think you can adjust the speed of the core, yes, but the HDMI's refresh isn't adjust along with it. Just the other way around as on the MiSTer, where you can adjust the output refresh, but not the core speed.

The Super Nt and Mega Sg's options allow for changing the interplay between the FPGA console's refresh rate and the buffer mode, while constitution of the HDMI output signal stays fixed.
The Nt Mini does not have this kind of buffer, so in HDMI mode the console core is always slightly underclocked to match standard HDMI timings, while more authentic speed (I assume these old Xtals exhibit some amount of variation) can only be reached by using the analog video output mode.

fernan1234: As has been touched upon, if you set value on a satisfactory display aspect ratio on digital displays, for many video game systems you need a non-square scaling ratio, which will cause shimmering (even though the scaling factor for each individual axis is an integer). To avoid that shimmering, you need interpolation.

[fernan1234]

Yes you're correct. I think I did not notice any shimmering because I always used either an interpolation filter or more often a scanline filter while testing integer scaled output.

I suppose that the aspect ratio issue can be addressed when using a TV that allows for stretching the picture.

[6t8k]

I suppose that the aspect ratio issue can be addressed when using a TV that allows for stretching the picture.

In theory yes, but then the TV has to either shimmer due to dropped/duplicated rows/columns, or perform interpolation. Which algorithm will be better, the TV's or the tailor-made open-source one?

[cr4zymanz0r]

I think a lot of youtubers get ahead of themselves and talk as if virtually all MiSTer cores are cycle accurate because they heard X, Y, and Z core were great and they didn't see any issues during their short time of playing/testing. Some cores are exceptional, some are plenty playable but can show bugs without looking super hard, and others still need a lot of work.

Don't 'throw out' the whole project because you heard it was perfect but then found out there's a bug in a particular core. The great part about this is preservation because it's open source and you can submit issues on github. Even if the original author of a core ends up abandoning it, since all the code is there someone else could come along and take over. Even if say the Super NT was completely cycle accurate without any bugs, if Analogue went out of business or just decided the product wasn't financially viable anymore then you're out of luck.

Basically I think one of the important things about this is the community effort towards getting the cores accurate. Things already keep getting far better in just a matter of weeks.

[Bassa-Bassa]

From Jotego's twitter account:

Code: Select all

Double Dragon 2 core updated for MiST(er):
-More accurate 6809 timing
-DIP switch support via MRA
-Better FX/music balance
-Nicer scan doubler (MiST/SiDi only)

And thanks to theypsilon  (@josembarroso
) the updater for my cores has received some love and now downloads MRA files.

How exactly does the dip switch configuration work in the arcade cores? Can it be tweaked on the fly and then reset the emulation (like in Mame)?

And how is the core and system update process in Mister? Is it feasible to do it manually with an SD card?

[fernan1234]

Basically I think one of the important things about this is the community effort towards getting the cores accurate. Things already keep getting far better in just a matter of weeks.

Yep. There are basically two types of people only: those who love the project and are excited for it (even if they haven't jumped on board yet as dev or user), and those who don't know enough about the project yet (even those who think they do)

How exactly does the dip switch configuration work in the arcade cores? Can it be tweaked on the fly and then reset the emulation (like in Mame)?

It may depend on the core. In my experience, many apply the dip switch settings on the fly, but there may be some that require saving the settings and reload the core.

And how is the core and system update process in Mister? Is it feasible to do it manually with an SD card?

No need, scripts are included that do all of the updating for you. You can launch scripts from the user menu. It couldn't be any easier.
You can also add your own scripts for unofficial cores, Jotego's cores, and for automatic download of segments of the MAME and homebrew MAME sets supported currently by all available cores.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Thanks! My question was more if you can keep your system updated discretionally with no internet connection, by adding scripts or whatever through say an SD card every time you feel like it in an easy-enough way - if it's designed also as an offline system, since the wiki seems to imply that it isn't.

Also, how usual is it that a core allows you to organize your roms folders at will, or do you need to use a PC for that every time you want to modify a favorites folder, for example?

[Arasoi]

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[BIL]

Sweet av, thanks for the laughs. ;3

[Arasoi]

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[ldeveraux]

I'm just waiting for a good UI, something similar to EmulationStation. I understand it's not the priority, but other than fooling around with the Mister, I don't use it much. I suppose I could try porting it when I have some time? Not a huge fan of using a keyboard to select games instead of a basic frontend.

[shroom2k]

I'm just waiting for a good UI, something similar to EmulationStation. I understand it's not the priority, but other than fooling around with the Mister, I don't use it much. I suppose I could try porting it when I have some time? Not a huge fan of using a keyboard to select games instead of a basic frontend.

You don't need to use a keyboard, gamepad works fine.

There's a good reason why a full-blown GUI is not used in MiSTer. The menu gets displayed on top of the games, and it actually becomes part of the image that is output by the current core. So it's technically _within_ the original 240p resolution, and that's what you're limited with. So there are simply not enough pixels to use any fancy graphics or additional info.

[bobrocks95]

Quality of the discussion has improved.

Good.

Carry on, I will not be back.

Thank the Good Lord that the thread is now Arasoi approved. Not sure what I would have done otherwise.

[fernan1234]

Thanks! My question was more if you can keep your system updated discretionally with no internet connection, by adding scripts or whatever through say an SD card every time you feel like it in an easy-enough way - if it's designed also as an offline system, since the wiki seems to imply that it isn't.

Also, how usual is it that a core allows you to organize your roms folders at will, or do you need to use a PC for that every time you want to modify a favorites folder, for example?

Yes, an offline setup is possible, though not very convenient. You'd have to manually copy over the updated RBF (core) files into the cores folder (as well as corresponding MRA files for arcade games). Often core updates also require using the latest Main core and Menu core, so you'd want to update those as well when manually updating cores.

And ROM folders can be organized as you wish, no restrictions there. You just need any subfolders structured as you like to go into the corresponding core's folder within the Games folder (in the root of the SD card or external storage device [and only one of these, with external taking priority by default]). If you put a "Favorites" folder into the corresponding core Games folder, you'll navigate straight into it as soon as you select load game within the core.

If you're using the same core regularly, you can set up the MiSTer to boot straight into that core for a more seamless experience.

There's a good reason why a full-blown GUI is not used in MiSTer. The menu gets displayed on top of the games, and it actually becomes part of the image that is output by the current core. So it's technically _within_ the original 240p resolution, and that's what you're limited with. So there are simply not enough pixels to use any fancy graphics or additional info.

Yes. There was discussion back in the atari-forums of an eventual frontend more akin to EmulationStation and the like, which could be set by a user to replace the current streamlined Menu for launching cores.

By the way, this is also an interesting way of launching cores through your PC, which could be customized for a more traditional frontend look: https://github.com/nilp0inter/MiSTer_WebMenu

[Arasoi]

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[Bassa-Bassa]

Yes, an offline setup is possible, though not very convenient. You'd have to manually copy over the updated RBF (core) files into the cores folder (as well as corresponding MRA files for arcade games). Often core updates also require using the latest Main core and Menu core, so you'd want to update those as well when manually updating cores.

And ROM folders can be organized as you wish, no restrictions there. You just need any subfolders structured as you like to go into the corresponding core's folder within the Games folder (in the root of the SD card or external storage device [and only one of these, with external taking priority by default]). If you put a "Favorites" folder into the corresponding core Games folder, you'll navigate straight into it as soon as you select load game within the core.

If you're using the same core regularly, you can set up the MiSTer to boot straight into that core for a more seamless experience.

Thanks again. One final question, I promise! Are controllers through USB adaptors as configurable as they are with Windows? Can you assign buttons per-core (and even per-game) and save/auto-load it, or it depends on the core?

[fernan1234]

Thanks again. One final question, I promise! Are controllers through USB adaptors as configurable as they are with Windows? Can you assign buttons per-core (and even per-game) and save/auto-load it, or it depends on the core?

No problem. Yes, when you connect a new USB gamepad through an adapter or directly you can go through the main mapping process, which is applied globally, and then you can further assign buttons if you want per-core. Per-core config needs to be saved manually once, and then it remains saved. This goes in-depth into the mapping process: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... ck-Mapping

I don't think you can assign buttons per-game, but you can assign an alternate mapping for each controller both globally and per-core.

You can also assign keyboard keys to gamepad buttons which can be pretty useful for computer games, but this is the one gamepad setting that cannot be saved permanently.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Cool, thanks. Sounds like everything is so well thought-out. Except for the Discord thing, jeez - hopefully the new official forum can take its place with the time.

[ldeveraux]

I'm just waiting for a good UI, something similar to EmulationStation. I understand it's not the priority, but other than fooling around with the Mister, I don't use it much. I suppose I could try porting it when I have some time? Not a huge fan of using a keyboard to select games instead of a basic frontend.

You don't need to use a keyboard, gamepad works fine.

There's a good reason why a full-blown GUI is not used in MiSTer. The menu gets displayed on top of the games, and it actually becomes part of the image that is output by the current core. So it's technically _within_ the original 240p resolution, and that's what you're limited with. So there are simply not enough pixels to use any fancy graphics or additional info.

I asked about UI months ago when my Mister arrived and I remember the answer then was that it wasn't the priority...

[robotvendingmachine]

Currently I have no regrets. I am even thinking of getting rid of my Analogue consoles now.

[ldeveraux]

Currently I have no regrets. I am even thinking of getting rid of my Analogue consoles now.

I'm a complete rube, but can the Analogue consoles be hacked to add your own cores? That would be cool! I assume not...

[ApolloBoy]

Currently I have no regrets. I am even thinking of getting rid of my Analogue consoles now.

I'm a complete rube, but can the Analogue consoles be hacked to add your own cores? That would be cool! I assume not...

The Nt mini has jailbroken firmware that includes a ton of extra cores developed by Kevin Horton, including the Atari 2600, Game Boy/Color, SMS, etc. Nothing yet for the Super Nt but the Mega Sg also has jailbroken firmware that includes a ColecoVision core.

[Bassa-Bassa]

To clarify, the Contra core I was provided footage of by Bassa behaves exactly like MAME, wrt the 3D stages' rolling mines. They bunch up in the lower-right while I sit back and blaze the mighty joint seen on the title screen, then SHOOT THA CORE. They're supposed to spread out as clipped in the linked post (here is a full run, if it helps with further testing)

I'm personally curious about this bug, as it is a long-running one, affecting not just MAME, but also every official emulation of Contra with the sole exception of Hamster's Arcade Archives release (source of above footage). ACA ver was developed by Gotch Technologies, founded by ex-Rutubos, they are some hardcore pipe-hittin motherfuckers who do the job and vanish before the bodies done hit the ground.

Thanks for explaining it here. That bug exemplifies like no other my biggest concern with the Mister project, that the devs lack good testers (or love for the games they study) and that quantity is gaining priority over quality, much like it happened to Mame. I'm aware that every developer is different, but if even the well-regarded Jotego doesn't bother to check Mametesters just out of curiousity, it's not a good signal.

Said that, I don't know if it has reached him at this point somehow. Let's just blame twitter and patreon.

While we've had loads of options until now which focused on the usability side, MiSTer decided to make perfect accuracy its highest priority.

Which goes against the idea of setting the Neogeo core's refresh at 59.94Hz instead of the original 59.18 for better TV compatibility, as I read in a post by Sorgelig himself. I mean, it's not a core just about the AES version.

The Contra issue reached somehow the core's author:

https://twitter.com/topapate/status/1276577305285009411

This will be a good test to check if we can expect arcade accuracy in general to surpass that of Mame (though this author already did it with some cores, it is said).