solutions for unmodded SDTVs

[azmun]

I'm going to join the bandwagon of related and fragmented threads that have been around for long time. Getting the most out of one's standard-definition television (SDTVs) varies. It ranges from doing nothing at all (if you've got a great set to begin with) to performing modifications, usually to accept other video inputs such as s-video or component. This trend seems to follow the natural tendency of enthusiasts altering their consoles. But modding need not be the only option. I like to believe there are alternatives, tools in between source and a 15khz display output that can improve user experience.

OSSC is a wonderful device. It works under the principle of making older consoles work optimally on modern (and future) displays. There is movement albeit much slower though lately gaining traction towards the other way around. That is, to make modern (or up and coming) gaming systems such as PC, MiSTer, etc. run well with older displays using what was then standard inputs. Solutions aren't so clear cut but the goals are nonetheless the same--future-proofing our equipment.

Is it possible to someday have an equivalent product to the OSSC that supports such direction? Wouldn't it be great if we could simply connect our PCs, Raspberry Pi, MiSTer, Mega Sg/Super NT, or whatever emulation of choice you have using one gadget into our SDTV? I am aware of digital to analog converters and transcoders. They are dime a dozen but lack essential features and flexibility. Developers are making progress but what kind of functionalities are needed to attain desirable results and high compatibility? Here are some thoughts:

1-ability to take in 31khz and other frequencies
2-control for 240p and 480i
3-sync options
4-filters to reduce artifacts & noise to alleviate dot crawl, jail bars, etc. and/or clean graphics and sharpen video through comb or notch filters
5-overscan / underscan adjustments

This device should have two inputs--HDMI or VGA and the following outputs: composite, s-video, component and SCART

Many seem to have very negative views of composite and s-video. I will not venture into RF, but suffice to say, this too gets bad rap. Perhaps this is ignorance or distrust due to bad past encounters. We can fault poor video encoders in certain consoles, and/or televisions with mediocre or no filters. Analogy is akin to thinking all tequila or gin is horrible because your initial experiences with them were low quality. And maybe you even got the worst hangover, a traumatic experience. Then later in life you discovered there were finer versions of these drinks. What a revelation!

Finally, it'd be great to know the pros and cons of extracting analog signal from various digital as opposed to analog sources (both audio and video). Is it better to get it from HDMI or VGA, or are there trade-offs between quality and lag? I've read the analog conversion process may be more prone to loss or degradation. On the other hand, I read HDMI's capability is questionable regarding it's the ability to deliver 15kHz (240p and 480i) signal due to some limiting factor. For example, I am considering to buy a MiSTer and tell seller my plan is to run this on a SDTV. He tells me I have two options VGA to SCART cable or HDMI to s-video. But with the latter, I must "be careful with the audio outputs."

[Josh128]

RF is bad. It makes composite video look good. Composite vid is "OK" on SDTVs. Its doable, but in a different league than S-Video and RGBS or Component Video.

S-Video is very good on SDTVs, lacking only in color bandwidth/resolution compared to RGB component. RF is bad though. Its the worst possible connection method you can utilize.

[Greg2600]

I've been asking for this very device for awhile now! There are tons of these professional scalers being discussed on this forum, but none of them were developed for gaming or consumer use. Not to mention they are quite scarce.

I personally would prefer, in addition to VGA/HDMI, that there is a component input for the 720/480p systems (Gamecube, PS2, Xbox, Wii, etc). Outputs are fine, though is SCART probably not necessary.

One last query though, is there really a noticeable effect in downscaling a 720p/480p console to 240p (on an SDTV) rather than just having it output 480i to begin with?

[Josh128]

One last query though, is there really a noticeable effect in downscaling a 720p/480p console to 240p (on an SDTV) rather than just having it output 480i to begin with?

Yes, you lose detail and it looks noticably worse. Its the reason the DC/PS2/GC/Xbox all output 480i by default in almost all games. I just ran through this exercise in GroovyMAME. Medium res/ 25KHz lose a LOT of detail when outputting 240p vs 480i on an FD Trinitron Wega SDTV. What holds true for 25KHz holds true for everything higher. Its not even debatable.

[Guspaz]

The OSSC already has planned 480i and 480p to 240p conversion options, and 480p to 480i was stated as not planned but "can be implemented easily if needed". It has both analog and digital inputs, with optional analog output via an expansion module. So it seems like the OSSC Pro will be able to handle this scenario once somebody makes the output module.

[azmun]

RF is bad. It makes composite video look good. Composite vid is "OK" on SDTVs. Its doable, but in a different league than S-Video and RGBS or Component Video.

I've seen my fair share of a combination of setups in the past. Growing up in Asia, US and Europe gave me the opportunity. You need to look at this as a system with three main parts:

1-source
2-connection
3-display output

When you say RF is bad, you diminish the impact the two other ends of the system. I've seen composite look worst than RF, s-video better than component, etc. Let me explain. If you combine bad source with bad display you know the result. Conversely, if you have good source and good display, guess what? You're likely to get decent results (bar bad cables or interference). Genesis model 1's are known to have one of the worst composite outputs. If you connect this console to a large (27" and above) television without good comb filter you're likely to have a very ugly picture. Perhaps the same can be said of some NES units. Check out this for reference: http://mikejmoffitt.com/articles/0051-nettv-rgb.html

Now if you have a small 14" television and hook it up to a PC Engine, Master System or Famicom via RF you may notice how much sharper, nicer graphics will look. It's almost like you have higher resolution because in effect, "pixels" shrank. I'd argue you still need a television equipped with a good tube and tuner. I've connected my PS2 to an ordinary Philips set with component inputs. And while the graphics were good, I found the color and definition on my Sony XBR better via s-video. My point is, let's not make sweeping generalizations or conclusions about signal type.

I personally would prefer, in addition to VGA/HDMI, that there is a component input for the 720/480p systems (Gamecube, PS2, Xbox, Wii, etc). Outputs are fine, though is SCART probably not necessary. One last query though, is there really a noticeable effect in downscaling a 720p/480p console to 240p (on an SDTV) rather than just having it output 480i to begin with?

You need SCART because that's the standard port in many old and consumer grade televisions in Europe. You don't need component because as mentioned by Josh128, downscaling is not a good idea. In addition, consoles that support component also support composite. I'll be explicit, this device is geared for content that was originally in 240p or 480i. Games that run on 480p and above are outside realm of SDTVs and best served on PC CRTs and HDTVs.

[Greg2600]

One last query though, is there really a noticeable effect in downscaling a 720p/480p console to 240p (on an SDTV) rather than just having it output 480i to begin with?

Yes, you lose detail and it looks noticeably worse. Its the reason the DC/PS2/GC/Xbox all output 480i by default in almost all games. I just ran through this exercise in GroovyMAME. Medium res/ 25KHz lose a LOT of detail when outputting 240p vs 480i on an FD Trinitron Wega SDTV. What holds true for 25KHz holds true for everything higher. Its not even debatable.

Thanks, I was asking about that on another thread but nobody took me up on it. I've seen a few old devices cheap that take VGA in and output component 15 Khz and S-video/composite, to use on my McWill VGA out devices.

The OSSC already has planned 480i and 480p to 240p conversion options, and 480p to 480i was stated as not planned but "can be implemented easily if needed". It has both analog and digital inputs, with optional analog output via an expansion module. So it seems like the OSSC Pro will be able to handle this scenario once somebody makes the output module.

Well the cost of the Pro might be a bit high for what is likely a negligible improvement on a SDTV.

I personally would prefer, in addition to VGA/HDMI, that there is a component input for the 720/480p systems (Gamecube, PS2, Xbox, Wii, etc). Outputs are fine, though is SCART probably not necessary. One last query though, is there really a noticeable effect in downscaling a 720p/480p console to 240p (on an SDTV) rather than just having it output 480i to begin with?

You need SCART because that's the standard port in many old and consumer grade televisions in Europe. You don't need component because as mentioned by Josh128, downscaling is not a good idea. In addition, consoles that support component also support composite. I'll be explicit, this device is geared for content that was originally in 240p or 480i. Games that run on 480p and above are outside realm of SDTVs and best served on PC CRTs and HDTVs.

Why not just use the HD Retrovision Component cables?

[strayan]

One last query though, is there really a noticeable effect in downscaling a 720p/480p console to 240p (on an SDTV) rather than just having it output 480i to begin with?

Yes, you lose detail and it looks noticably worse.

I wouldn't say that. Some people prefer to play games at 240p rather than 480p/480i e.g. https://youtu.be/9J716rqAPCU?t=2027

[azmun]

Why not just use the HD Retrovision Component cables?

Because not all tvs support that input? Actually, I take back what I said earlier. Perhaps as inputs it'd be good to have component and SCART in addition to HDMI/VGA. This conceptual device can then double as an RGB (or component) to s-video (or composite converter). HD Retrovision cables would become obsolete since it'd basically perform the same function (i.e. take RGB signal and convert it to component). It might even result in better than native outputs coming out of consoles with bad video encoders.

[shroom2k]

My understanding is that all the above described functionallity is eventually planned for OSSC Pro.

[azmun]

OSSC Pro doesn't output composite or s-video.

[Josh128]

When you say RF is bad, you diminish the impact the two other ends of the system. I've seen composite look worst than RF, s-video better than component, etc. Let me explain. If you combine bad source with bad display you know the result. Conversely, if you have good source and good display, guess what? You're likely to get decent results (bar bad cables or interference). Genesis model 1's are known to have one of the worst composite outputs. If you connect this console to a large (27" and above) television without good comb filter you're likely to have a very ugly picture. Perhaps the same can be said of some NES units. Check out this for reference: http://mikejmoffitt.com/articles/0051-nettv-rgb.html

Obviously Im talking about all the different signal types only, not the source system or end display.

Now if you have a small 14" television and hook it up to a PC Engine, Master System or Famicom via RF you may notice how much sharper, nicer graphics will look. It's almost like you have higher resolution because in effect, "pixels" shrank. I'd argue you still need a television equipped with a good tube and tuner. I've connected my PS2 to an ordinary Philips set with component inputs. And while the graphics were good, I found the color and definition on my Sony XBR better via s-video. My point is, let's not make sweeping generalizations or conclusions about signal type.

Again, the video / color resolution of a signal type is independent of system or display used and does not change. I understand what you are getting at, but the S-video standard itself will always be capable of a higher video and color bandwidth compared to composite video standard, just like component or RGBS will always be of a higher video and color bandwidth compared to S-Video. Using a higher number of separated and shielded conductors to carry multiple separate signals, if done correctly, will always yield a higher bandwidth / less noise than muxing and demuxing those same signals onto a lesser number of wires. Its elementary physics.

[shroom2k]

OSSC Pro doesn't output composite or s-video.

Not directly, but it's intended to support analog output via GPIO, and after that it's just a matter of using the right converter.

While this may be a complex and expensive solution, advanced CRT use is a somewhat niche thing at this point, so this is to be expected.

[Fudoh]

I would also say that the OSSC Pro is your best bet. It's similar with the OSSC now. Add a DAC to the output and you can use it a near perfect analogue transcoder (VGA to YUV or YUV to VGA). With scan conversion down to 15khz available on the OSSC Pro you can extend and carry over the concept.

Building the "all in one" converter you'd like to have would be pretty expensive, so building on a available (or soon to be available) product that already does effectively handling your core requirements, makes a lot more sense. Mike Chi recently made his RGBHV to composite and s-video solution available, which - if added at the end of said chain - provides the lower quality output you're looking for.

Keep in mind that this is all still considerably more expensive and complex than what's already available today.

From your opening posting, all I read is that you're looking for a good scan converter. The Extron VSC machines are available for next to nothing ($50) with the only thing missing being the HDMI input.

For a HD source like PS4 your processing chain currently looks like this

PS4 -> HDMI/VGA converter ($15) -> Extron VSC scan converter ($50) -> SDTV

This provides you with 480i output in RGB, component, s-video and composite and adds a flexible scaling engine that you can use to center, zoom, resize or crop the source to match your display. Composite quality is excellent on these units and you get adjustable filter settings. The Extrons don't have RF output, but you can add a composite to RF encoder for a few dollars, if that's what you really need (nobody will ever again build a device with a RF encoder included).

Feature-wise the only thing missing from this is the 240p output capability and I agree, there are currently no easy or cheap solutions to do that.

[Greg2600]

Well the Pro I think is going to cost an arm and a leg, and the OP's needs (and mine too) technically would have been met had the OSSC outputted in something other than HDMI alone.

[Guspaz]

It's not just the outputs, it's the downscaling functionality, which the OSSC does not support.

[Greg2600]

It's not just the outputs, it's the downscaling functionality, which the OSSC does not support.

Ahhhhh, good point, ha ha. I did some comparisons anyway, running some Xbox and Gamecube stuff 480p on my HDTV and 480i on my SDTV, and really didn't look all that different, both in component video.

[kitty666cats]

Modded GBS8200 with CFW will only get better 'n better for this (transcoded component output is being worked on, downscaling is making major leaps) - just gotta have time for pet projects, or find a kind fellow who will get one all set up for you (like my nervous, shaky-hands self did, heh... in my defense, I'm stepping up my game and RGB modding a CRT this weekend with a buddy!)

[korpse413]

Modded GBS8200 with CFW will only get better 'n better for this (transcoded component output is being worked on, downscaling is making major leaps) - just gotta have time for pet projects, or find a kind fellow who will get one all set up for you (like my nervous, shaky-hands self did, heh... in my defense, I'm stepping up my game and RGB modding a CRT this weekend with a buddy!)

Best of luck! If it is the 34" NetTv / Sampo beast please be sure to document!

[vol.2]

If OP is willing to accept the best that RF can offer, then I think the best solution for you is an Extron VSC 700.

You can input HD signals and output at 480i. It looks great. I use one with a Chromecast to send Netflix and similar streaming to my PVM, but it works just fine on a "normal" TV and has a composite output.

Done.

[NoAffinity]

Modded GBS8200 with CFW will only get better 'n better for this (transcoded component output is being worked on, downscaling is making major leaps) - just gotta have time for pet projects, or find a kind fellow who will get one all set up for you (like my nervous, shaky-hands self did, heh... in my defense, I'm stepping up my game and RGB modding a CRT this weekend with a buddy!)

This. Modded gbs outputs vga. You can get that to scart and component easily and through basic transcoding (no added lag). All the controls work with downscaling via vga output. Direct component output is not fully supported for all features yet.

Just an example of the flexibility - snes scart to scart-to-component transcoder to Sony trinitron. Image is a bit wide (tv handling of the image) and letter boxed. SNES to gbs pass through to VGA-to-component transcoder to sony trinitron. Used the gbs controls to get perfect fitment on the screen and the gain controls to get precise brightness.

Same holds true for downscaled sources via gbs to sony trinitron. Altho I should caution that vga input for downscaling is not fully supported yet.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[kitty666cats]

Modded GBS8200 with CFW will only get better 'n better for this (transcoded component output is being worked on, downscaling is making major leaps) - just gotta have time for pet projects, or find a kind fellow who will get one all set up for you (like my nervous, shaky-hands self did, heh... in my defense, I'm stepping up my game and RGB modding a CRT this weekend with a buddy!)

This. Modded gbs outputs vga. You can get that to scart and component easily and through basic transcoding (no added lag). All the controls work with downscaling via vga output. Direct component output is not fully supported for all features yet.

Just an example of the flexibility - snes scart to scart-to-component transcoder to Sony trinitron. Image is a bit wide (tv handling of the image) and letter boxed. SNES to gbs pass through to VGA-to-component transcoder to sony trinitron. Used the gbs controls to get perfect fitment on the screen and the gain controls to get precise brightness.

Same holds true for downscaled sources via gbs to sony trinitron. Altho I should caution that vga input for downscaling is not fully supported yet.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

There's also many SCART to DE-15 options. If one already has a micro USB power supply lying around and a 3.5mm audio to 2RCA audio, you can get the SCART2DVI for $35 (shipping included) and a cheap DVI-I/DVI-A to DE-15 for connecting. Has a sync stripper you can switch on/off, as well as a LPF.

Also, you can use very easy to find cheap scan converters for down-converting to 480i, then forcing 240p via GBScontrol if you so desire - the AverMedia AVerKey units output RGBS via a DE-15 ("VGA") and are easily found for $10 or less.

[Greg2600]

Isn't the GBS8200 somewhat finicky with CFW?

[kitty666cats]

Isn't the GBS8200 somewhat finicky with CFW?

Finicky stuff would be 480p downscaling (better to feed it 480i if you want 240p, perhaps better for now to just use a scan converter for bringing shit down to 480i), the RGBHV/RGBS to YPbPr transcoding (hell, who would have thought anyone would even have got a GBS8200 to do that in the first place? Even if it's still in a rough phase, it's very cool).

Myself, I haven't had any issues yet. Most issues one would run into on a CFW'd GBS could probably be solved with an Extron RGB interface chained after (or perhaps sometimes even BEFORE) the unit

[Greg2600]

Isn't the GBS8200 somewhat finicky with CFW?

Finicky stuff would be 480p downscaling (better to feed it 480i if you want 240p, perhaps better for now to just use a scan converter for bringing shit down to 480i), the RGBHV/RGBS to YPbPr transcoding (hell, who would have thought anyone would even have got a GBS8200 to do that in the first place? Even if it's still in a rough phase, it's very cool).

Myself, I haven't had any issues yet. Most issues one would run into on a CFW'd GBS could probably be solved with an Extron RGB interface chained after (or perhaps sometimes even BEFORE) the unit

By finicky I meant physically doing the CFW reprogramming. Plus doesn't i have to be modded with a Raspberry Pi? Seems way too complicated for me.

[azmun]

Finicky stuff would be 480p downscaling (better to feed it 480i if you want 240p, perhaps better for now to just use a scan converter for bringing shit down to 480i), the RGBHV/RGBS to YPbPr transcoding (hell, who would have thought anyone would even have got a GBS8200 to do that in the first place? Even if it's still in a rough phase, it's very cool).

I think we are in relatively uncharted territory regarding downscaling. Which will yield better results going to 240p, 480p or 480i? Of course and ideally, it's best to avoid downscaling (or down scanning) so your original source should also be 240p to begin with. But it would make an interesting experiment nonetheless. These would be the combinations:

240p --> 240p
480i --> 480i
240p --> 480i
480i --> 240p

Take for example many ports or emulation from PS2 library such as compilations from Capcom, SNK, Namco, Taito, etc. The original source material were 240p but upscaled to 480i with varying results. If we had such decent converter (and I'm not talking about "tricks" from devices that supposedly perform such feats), perhaps we could finally get decent results.