4th Annual Top 25 Shumps of All Time! - Results

[Rob]

And... I didn't think either of them were all that special.

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.

Or not, power of laughter and all.

I think it's better to own games yourself and take your own time instead of, I assume, playing it briefly on their time. It's like putting a few tokens in the arcade. You give the impression of not wanting to enjoy the games.

[louisg]

Ah well, I still think the list was kinda lame. There are so many fecking awesome PC-Engine, Genesis, NES, etc. shmups, a lot of which are much better than Cave's games.

that´s what happens when you avoid a PS2 for years. You don´t understand other people´s votes because you haven´t played the games. Do you even play PC shooters? Because that´s the other big platform where things are happening.

DDP was around 1997, right? I think the PS2 came out a few years later Cave's been around, dude.

I dunno if I'd go as far as to say flat out that 8 to 16-bitter shmups are *better* than Cave's shooters-- hard to compare, really. I don't think the shmupping focus should be so narrow that both can't co-exist.

I admittedly tend to stay away from post-Windows PC (or Mac or Linux) gaming in general because the performance imo doesn't come close to the dedicated systems due to factors beyond the programmers' control, though if there's a kick-butt shmup I ought to be playing (aside from the ABA Games stuffs, cause I got those covered), just lemme know!

[jp]

And... I didn't think either of them were all that special.

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.

Or not, power of laughter and all.

I think it's better to own games yourself and take your own time instead of, I assume, playing it briefly on their time. It's like putting a few tokens in the arcade. You give the impression of not wanting to enjoy the games.

You could be right (about needing to put more time into them). I didn't really care much for Super God Trooper Zeroigar when I first played it. But now that I'm understanding it and getting closer to that 1CC (yellow orb must die first at boss... ARRGHHHHHHH! ), I'm starting to really dig it.

Though I did put time into Harmful Park and R-Type Delta... and did walk away from both games very under impressed. Same goes for DDP as I almost 1CC'd it. Even in Normal Mode.

[Rob]

If you want to appreciate R-Type Delta what you need to do is play 5 hours of R-Type Final. Of course this means throwing away 5 hours of your life, but you'll see what's done right in Delta. You have to be in the mood for a slower paced game.

[jp]

If you want to appreciate R-Type Delta what you need to do is play 5 hours of R-Type Final. Of course this means throwing away 5 hours of your life, but you'll see what's done right in Delta. You have to be in the mood for a slower paced game.

I think I put 3 hours into R-Type Final before walking away.

Most.boring.game.ever.

[chempop]

I would have included Dimahoo, Dragon Blaze, and Dangun Feveron in my vote if I had played them at the time. Dimahoo I am especially impressed with, might become my favorite 8ing game someday. Dragon Blaze is also quickly becoming one of my Favorite Psikyo games.

I haven't played the newer Cave games yet, so I don't know what all the fuss is about. Although I am surprised a game about psychic butterfly's made it so high, looks like shmup addicts aren't so harcore after all.

Wtf at Treasure holding down 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place?! Although I'm very surprised, I can't really argue as those three games did get high votes from me. Where is Batsugun, did people forget about this one? I'm also confused about people rating the first Gigawing over part 2, maybe I need to play it more to understand.

Nice to see all the MarsMatrix, Gunbird2, Souky, and Layer Section love. This was my first year voting, about half my games made top 25.

[raiden]

I admittedly tend to stay away from post-Windows PC (or Mac or Linux) gaming in general because the performance imo doesn't come close to the dedicated systems due to factors beyond the programmers' control, though if there's a kick-butt shmup I ought to be playing (aside from the ABA Games stuffs, cause I got those covered), just lemme know!

- everything Shanghai Alice
- Bike Banditz
- Hitogata Happa
are better than many console releases.

[DEL]

Positions 2, 3 & 4 make me feel like I'm on the wrong forum.

[Super Laydock]

Games I think got cheated!:
-......................
-......................
-Giga Wing 2? (GW1 is good enough for one series, but I'm surprised GW1 has a much greater following. can't explain it)

Haha, are you serious!?
Giga Wing over GW2 anyday. It feels more "pure", plays smoother, has less slowdown and no polygons. Those should be reasons enough!

GW2's music is a positive point though, but GW has that too.

GW2 is more enjoyable than Mars Matrix though!

[Rob]

Giga Wing over GW2 anyday. It feels more "pure", plays smoother, has less slowdown and no polygons. Those should be reasons enough!

I can understand pure/no polygons, but still edge to GW2. GW1's scoring system is far more brutal. Milking the bosses - destroying all of their parts, can be really hard and tedious. And frustrating when I get a 98% destruction rate (so miss the bonus). I'm not even sure how to approach the last full stage for score. My fault, but it's a mean unforgiving game. They're both awesome.

[dai jou bu]

- everything Shanghai Alice

I think I'm the only one in the universe that thinks Perfect Cherry Blossom is +100 to overrated. The Cherry Point system exists only to increase your score since the thing tends to activate whenever you don't want it to (like during a lull in the bullet pattern, or the boss is still going through the whole process of losing all of their life and activating their spellcard), and YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO CONTROL IT because you need to damage the boss in order to kill them/capture their spell cards, with each hit moving the value closer to the Cherry Point Max. And I hate primary gameplay systems that exist only for score unless the level/enemy formation/boss design more than makes up for it.

It's sure pretty and the story's nice though.

- Bike Banditz

In my perfect little world, all shmups should try to learn from the level/boss design of this game.

[BulletMagnet]

The Cherry Point system exists only to increase your score...

Well, yeah, it's the game's scoring system.

...since the thing tends to activate whenever you don't want it to (like during a lull in the bullet pattern, or the boss is still going through the whole process of losing all of their life and activating their spellcard), and YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO CONTROL IT because you need to damage the boss in order to kill them/capture their spell cards, with each hit moving the value closer to the Cherry Point Max.

When you say "activate" I assume you mean the "supernatural border" which appears whenever your Cherry + meter hits 50,000 (I can't think of much else that you "activate" in the game that relates to your score)...and actually, you can "control" it to some degree...if you want the border to appear at a specific point, then a bit before that point work the Cherry + up to a little below 50,000, and then until that point don't shoot anything or collect any pink items. Of course, as you insinuate, it isn't easy, but it can be done...I believe it's even mentioned in the strategy section of the TouhouWiki someplace.

And I hate primary gameplay systems that exist only for score...

Methinks you must have a different definition of "primary" than I do...you can completely ignore the scoring in PCB without negatively affecting your ability to 1CC it.

[Twiddle]

- Bike Banditz

In my perfect little world, all shmups should try to learn from the level/boss design of this game.

Normal is a bit too easy dude

(It's very entertaining, though.)

[howmuchkeefe]

There were a few things I didn't like about Perfect Cherry Blossom:

1. The controls seemed a bit laggy compared to Imperishable Night
2. There's not much going on in the background.
3. No TATE.

It did a lot of other things right, though. I liked the music, especially; not just how it sounded, but how it was used. It really helped make the final battle seem more impressive, particularly the last part of it.

[captain ahar]

god, i can't help but ask:

why exactly should lack of TATE count against a vert that was made to fit the horizontal orientation?

[howmuchkeefe]

why exactly should lack of TATE count against a vert that was made to fit the horizontal orientation?

See, as it stands PCB is like a vert playing in yoko mode. It isn't like Giga Wing or Mars Matrix, it's more like DDP.

[captain ahar]

seems to me that with Zun's patterns, horiz aspect is the Right Thing. EoSD and IN are more suited towards it i grant you, but still...

[howmuchkeefe]

I'd think that if the playing area actually filled the screen, the patterns would be larger and easier to see. Are you concerned that the information that'd have to be moved would obscure the action?

EDIT: Perhaps, that if the playing area were larger, you'd focus too much on one area of the screen, and not be able to appreciate the full form of the pattern?

[captain ahar]

i more or less think that the presentation is well suited to the game, and that when it comes to these three games in particular, there is no need for any modification.

[MadSteelDarkness]

Hang on...

Shiki 2 makes it to number 8 on the list, but Batsugun, Donpachi, and G-Darius only get an honorable mention?

*makes disparaging comment about the kids these days and walks off, shaking his head*

Oh, and add another huzzah for Zach. Thanks, man.

[dai jou bu]

(It's very entertaining, though.)

That was my point. You want to get more fresh blood into the genre, not scare them off with OMG CAVE BULLET SPAM (okay, the game does do this too at times). A lot of people that watch me are already scared of the games I play because they're "difficult" and require "skill."

And Bike Banditz is still challenging if you leave the default settings alone, since you're only given one credit to finish the game.

you can "control" it to some degree...if you want the border to appear at a specific point, then a bit before that point work the Cherry + up to a little below 50,000, and then until that point don't shoot anything or collect any pink items.

You see, that's where the problem of the game lies- you have to try really really hard (almost to mathematical precision, which is probably why the English subtitle is called Perfect Cherry Blossom) in order to use the special abililty to any extent as a free bomb without jeopardizing the ability's score bonus. The point of collection that was introduced in EoSD shouldn't be here at all in that case, since from what you're saying about getting the Supernatural Border to work in your favor, it'll pick up those pink items too if you try to collect every single item in the screen.

In short, the game design is not as tuned as it should be. Seriously, all the game needed was a fourth button to manually activate the Supernatural Border once you had enough cherry points to do so and everything would've been okay.

And I hate primary gameplay systems that exist only for score...

Methinks you must have a different definition of "primary" than I do...you can completely ignore the scoring in PCB without negatively affecting your ability to 1CC it.

Why should I try to 1CC something with a game mechanic that fails to make sense on a gameplay level, especially in a shmup genre I'm not very fond of? The POC in EoSD is fine since the bullet patterns make you stay at the bottom of the screen, which gives you incentive to go near the top of the playing field, especially since you need to be at max firepower level to do this.

[BulletMagnet]

That was my point. You want to get more fresh blood into the genre, not scare them off with OMG CAVE BULLET SPAM (okay, the game does do this too at times).

Yeah, just a little. I can only imagine what a shmup virgin's facial expression would look like if he saw the third boss's first attack out of the blue...

You see, that's where the problem of the game lies- you have to try really really hard (almost to mathematical precision, which is probably why the English subtitle is called Perfect Cherry Blossom)...

Figures, NOW is the first and only time since I stepped into the forum that there isn't some "ohhh, I suppose you want an auto-bomb and a 'win' button too!" jerk following me around.

...in order to use the special abililty to any extent as a free bomb without jeopardizing the ability's score bonus. The point of collection that was introduced in EoSD shouldn't be here at all in that case, since from what you're saying about getting the Supernatural Border to work in your favor, it'll pick up those pink items too if you try to collect every single item in the screen.

Well, if you're playing for score you're not supposed to use the border as a "free bomb," you're pretty much supposed to ignore it and dodge stuff as usual (well, you might want to try scratching stuff more, if you're willing to take the risk), until it runs out and you get the 10,000 extra cherry points. What you say about the POC collecting everything and screwing you up makes sense, but if the rewards for activating the border at the right time are good enough, sitting back and missing a few point items (or just collecting them lower on the screen for fewer points) in order to hold back the border from appearing shouldn't ruin your score or anything.

In short, the game design is not as tuned as it should be. Seriously, all the game needed was a fourth button to manually activate the Supernatural Border once you had enough cherry points to do so and everything would've been okay.

You know, from here that does sound like a pretty good idea...that said, though, you just KNOW that if ZUN had done that, someone would be complaining about how there are "too many buttons."

Why should I try to 1CC something with a game mechanic that fails to make sense on a gameplay level, especially in a shmup genre I'm not very fond of? The POC in EoSD is fine since the bullet patterns make you stay at the bottom of the screen, which gives you incentive to go near the top of the playing field, especially since you need to be at max firepower level to do this.

Err, doesn't the POC in PCB work exactly the same way as it does in EoSD? Gotta be at full power, hafta risk wading through enemy bullets to get there, etc?

In any event, what you say about the game is valid, and I'm not claiming that it's perfect, or demanding that you like it. However, I am saying that, from my perspective, even if part of the scoring element is a bit squirrelly, unless you're determined to squeeze every last point from the thing you can still have fun with everything else that the game has to offer, which is done so well. I just don't think that the one flaw you mentioned is utterly fatal to the game and cancels out everything else that it excels in: if you feel differently that's fine, just figured I'd offer my perspective.

[dai jou bu]

Yeah, just a little. I can only imagine what a shmup virgin's facial expression would look like if he saw the third boss's first attack out of the blue...

Heh, one person passing who saw that a long time ago went, "NOW THAT IS WRONG!" in a somewhat deep and surprised masculine voice.

Well, if you're playing for score you're not supposed to use the border as a "free bomb,"

So you're saying it's not worth it to time its activation to turn the most number of bullets on screen into cherry petals when the border activates? I'm just curious since I never bothered to care after realizing how broken this system is.

Figures, NOW is the first and only time since I stepped into the forum that there isn't some "ohhh, I suppose you want an auto-bomb and a 'win' button too!" jerk following me around.

I am a bullet, and you're a magnet, so there.

I just realized that statement made no sense.

You know, from here that does sound like a pretty good idea...that said, though, you just KNOW that if ZUN had done that, someone would be complaining about how there are "too many buttons."

That was one of the many possibilities ZUN could've gone with the game system. He could've eliminated bombs altogether and instead focused more on what can be done more with the Supernatural Border already coded into the game. He could've done something with it like he did without using traditional shmup bombs in Phantasmagoria of Flower View and Shoot the Bullet, but he didn't.

Although 4 buttons isn't bad. Einhander and R-Type Delta are probably the only shmups I know of that have more than 3 buttons to use (rapid fire doesn't count ).

Err, doesn't the POC in PCB work exactly the same way as it does in EoSD? Gotta be at full power, hafta risk wading through enemy bullets to get there, etc?

Err, yeah. But I also said that it also doesn't make sense to have this feature in PCB because based on what you said earlier, it can possibly interfere with the timing of activating the Supernatural Border.

However, I am saying that, from my perspective, even if part of the scoring element is a bit squirrelly, unless you're determined to squeeze every last point from the thing you can still have fun with everything else that the game has to offer, which is done so well. I just don't think that the one flaw you mentioned is utterly fatal to the game and cancels out everything else that it excels in: if you feel differently that's fine, just figured I'd offer my perspective.

I do agree with you about this, except that PCB is a perfect example of why I hate danmaku shmups if they present nothing more interesting than dodging bullet patterns in the traditional TATE fashion and have a scoring system tacked onto it. That's why this is the only Windows Touhou game I don't like, and I've tried my best to like it, with no avail.

Heck, I've played EoSD more than PCB. That's how much I don't like it, regardless of how well-done that game is.

[BulletMagnet]

So you're saying it's not worth it to time its activation to turn the most number of bullets on screen into cherry petals when the border activates? I'm just curious since I never bothered to care after realizing how broken this system is.

The reason most PCB score players want to activate the border at certain times is because, whenever you graze bullets during a border, each bullet you graze increases your max cherry (you gain more for grazing while "unfocused"). There are a handful of spots where there are lots o' bullets to graze with relatively little danger of being hit before the border runs out (not good, since letting it run out is an automatic 10,000 extra max cherry). Check the TouhouWiki if you want the nitty-gritty on it.

Although 4 buttons isn't bad. Einhander and R-Type Delta are probably the only shmups I know of that have more than 3 buttons to use (rapid fire doesn't count ).

Hmmm...shoot, force, delta attack...must be missing that fourth button if rapid doesn't count. The one that immediately comes to mind for me is the Arrange mode on ESPGaluda (shoot, kakusei, piercing shot, barrier)...ties my fingers in knots, heh heh. Though supposedly Daioh has the record for that...

Err, yeah. But I also said that it also doesn't make sense to have this feature in PCB because based on what you said earlier, it can possibly interfere with the timing of activating the Supernatural Border.

Well, as I said, if you want to hold off on activating it at a couple of certain points, hang back for a bit at those times: otherwise, for most of the game there's not much holding you back from using it, methinks. Go, er, up, young man, and cheat death to sate your greed to your heart's content!

I do agree with you about this, except that PCB is a perfect example of why I hate danmaku shmups if they present nothing more interesting than dodging bullet patterns in the traditional TATE fashion and have a scoring system tacked onto it.

I'm curious...you say you dislike bullet-curtain shooters if they're just about "traditional bullet dodging with a score system pasted on someplace"...what sets PCB apart from EoSD or IN in that regard? Aren't the latter two basically about dodging lots of bullets and scoring points as well? I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, I'm just curious as to how you perceive these games, or others like them, in that regard.

[Twiddle]

where the hell are the amusingly-placed popcorn enemies, explosions, and/or destructable scenery in anything shanghai alice

inquiring minds want to know!

[benj]

...how broken this system is.

You know, a scoring system isn't necessarily broken, just because you don't like it/ don't understand it.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure the game would be lots better if it just had a 'score high' button. And auto pilot.
(Guess I'm the only jerk who read this thread.)

[howmuchkeefe]

where the hell are the amusingly-placed popcorn enemies, explosions, and/or destructable scenery in anything shanghai alice

inquiring minds want to know!

Well, the games are made by just one guy. Maybe frangible scenery and animation will be a feature of future Shanghai Alice games, when/if ZUN ever gets himself a staff.

I'd think that it wouldn't be too hard for him to paint some interesting backgrounds for his levels, or all that time consuming. I didn't mind the backgrounds during the boss fights, but the 3D-ish repetitive stage backgrounds made it somewhat harder to stick to my commitment to 1cc PCB.

[Shatterhand]

Hmmm...shoot, force, delta attack...must be missing that fourth button if rapid doesn't count.

Speed . There's a button (or 2, cant remember now) to change the ship speed.

Or am I thinking about Einhander?

[BulletMagnet]

Speed . There's a button (or 2, cant remember now) to change the ship speed.

Or am I thinking about Einhander?

*smacks self* That's the one I was forgetting. Though Einhander has a speed button too.

"Attach the stone of shame!"

But yeah, I'm pretty sure the game would be lots better if it just had a 'score high' button. And auto pilot.
(Guess I'm the only jerk who read this thread.)

I stand corrected: my streak continues!

I'd think that it wouldn't be too hard for him to paint some interesting backgrounds for his levels, or all that time consuming. I didn't mind the backgrounds during the boss fights, but the 3D-ish repetitive stage backgrounds made it somewhat harder to stick to my commitment to 1cc PCB.

Yeah, the backgrounds aren't the prettiest in the world, but truth be told I was never very bothered by them...if nothing else, bullets don't get lost in them too often. Not to mention, of course, that since so much stuff is being thrown at you, you don't have much time to look at the BG...if you can even see it under the bullet curtain. Aside from that, I'd say that they're part of what gives ZUN's stuff its identity, with their unusual "abstract" look...of course, not everybody's going to like it, nor should they, but however you feel about it you'll never mistake one of the Touhou games for anything else when you look at a screenshot.

[dai jou bu]

I'm curious...you say you dislike bullet-curtain shooters if they're just about "traditional bullet dodging with a score system pasted on someplace"...what sets PCB apart from EoSD or IN in that regard? Aren't the latter two basically about dodging lots of bullets and scoring points as well? I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, I'm just curious as to how you perceive these games, or others like them, in that regard.

Well, it's a little bit more than just "dodging and shooting with a score system tacked onto it," but I'll try to explain myself as best as I can here.

EoSD I don't mind because it represents a new beginning for the Touhou series- ZUN scrapped most of the gameplay mechanics he introduced in his previous Touhou shmups and instead focused again more on shooting and dodging. However, somewhere along the development of this game, he realized a few things. One of them was that there was a lot of filler in the PC-98 titles where many of the enemies were just sitting targets for your attacks. He made sure that almost every second in the stage there was something going on to keep you on your toes. The graphics, framerate, and sound have improved a lot from the PC-98 games. The bullet patterns also felt very different, as some of them (like Meling's) felt very artsy, and all of the attacks always gave you a fair warning since they came in slow enough to respond to them, but fast enough that you still needed some twitch reflexes to navigate through, something which the later Touhou games (except PoFV) will use very sparingly. Like I said earlier, the POC was introduced into this game because ZUN wanted to give players incentive to risk going up to the top of the screen when you have maximum firepower in order to collect all of the items that randomly drop from destroyed enemies, since there's almost nothing that will surprise you from the bottom of the screen.

In short, EoSD was a stepping stone to something greater. PCB was definitely not it, since the Supernatural Border literally screamed to me, "FIND A WAY TO USE ME PROPERLY" every time it turned on, which drove me insane to no end because it was so unorthodox to the point I wondered if I could understand it after I became a Zen Buddhist monk. Not only did the highlight of the game fail to impress me, there were no other significant improvements to the way the game played other than revealing the hitbox during slow mode and having the boss marker at the bottom of the screen.

Imperishable Night was what PCB was supposed to become. Three gameplay features were streamlined for the better, the first was hitting the slow button with one of the characters would make them switch to the other character, who had a weapon style that was similar (if not exact) to the character's B shot (ex- Reimu would fire her A shot, Yukari would fire Reimu B's shot), and if it wasn't similar, at least you didn't have to switch to the same character's shot style in order to get a completely different attack. The second was that the POC can be used even though you aren't at max firepower as long as you were in slow mode when you reached the POC area, so even tapping the slow button when there would suffice for it to activate. The third feature was that the Border of Life and Death ( or however it's called; chance to use your bomb upon getting hit by something) was slow enough for most people to react to, (only for boss spell cards though) and there was even a graphic that accompanied the sequence as well.

The Last Spell, the highlight of the game, was done cleverly as well, and the way to get it is really up to your style on how you want to accomplish this through use of the human/phantom meter as well as killing only the owners of the slaves. AND IT MAKES SENSE WITHOUT HAVING TO RESORT TO EXTREME MATHEMATICAL POSTULATES TO ACCOMPLISH.

I would say Imperishable Night is the beginning of ZUN's stride, as every offical Touhou game that's come after that so far was interesting, if not very good.

EDIT:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Abridged Edition

EoSD was created to introduce ZUN's new style, PCB was supposed to demonstrate ZUN's great creativity with shmup gameplay mechanics, but ends up becoming something like Devil May Cry 2 for me, and IN's gameplay features more than makes up for the mistake PCB left in its wake.