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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:34 pm 


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ZTylerDurden wrote:
In terms of retro home consoles in the US, why didn't we care about tapping into RGB back then and now we do?


nmalinoski wrote:
Probably a combination of things, like Internet culture still being in its infancy, and RGB and/or SCART not being made available. The way I understand it, no one here really knew about RGB in a consumer/gaming context, so I imagine there wasn't much demand for it.


theclaw wrote:
It took a very, very long time in gaming terms for the bare minimum to catch up. Master System was among the first RGB ready consoles in the US, a full twenty years later PS3 still gave only composite in the box.


1. Consumer TV sets did not have an RGB input. Svideo wasn't even a common thing until the mid 90's.

2. VHS players generally did not have enough picture fidelity to take advantage of the higher bandwidth of svideo, so why create an input on a TV set that provides little to no improvement over composite? (SVHS did have higher picture fidelity, but it was not common and pre-recorded movies generally didn't exist on it) It wasn't until DVD that svideo turned from a nice-to-have to a must-have

3. It's also true that the MPAA conspired with manufacturers in the US to keep high fidelity analog devices out of the commercial market to curb piracy. The industry had already seen it with music, so they knew that high quality pirate copies of movies was a real potential issue for them.

4. Given all these factors (and those mentioned by the previous posters) you have to realize that most gamers in the 80's and 90's were just kids. We didn't exactly have much of a voice to ask for RGB hookups, and were basically pleased with our NES and SNES with composite at the time. I never complained about the composite image when I got to have friends over to play Contra all night and drink root beer.

5. After the 90's happened, and LCD tech was in full swing, we all became increasingly aware of image quality variance. The transitional period of EDTV resolutions and all of the aspect ratio shifts and debacles drew attention to the essential practice of optimizing images, and CRTs became a target for those that longed for the nostalgia of the original equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:01 am 


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Sony BVM 129x problem. BVM-D9H5U monitor with BKM-129x card - only a component signal is accepted, although 480p hasn't been tried yet. RGBs signal results in scrambled display that eventually shuts off the tube. I tried two different good gaming consoles and no image would show up. After reviewing the video board options, I changed 0 to 1 for the only external sync option, and image would still not display but the tube wasn't forced off. I should probably stop input before damage occurs.

Anyway - are the 129x boards reliable or do they often have issues? It seems that I have a defective board, but maybe the monitor is to blame. Major sync problem I'm guessing. I don't have a duplicate card to test.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:35 am 



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Nogame wrote:
Sony BVM 129x problem. BVM-D9H5U monitor with BKM-129x card - only a component signal is accepted, although 480p hasn't been tried yet. RGBs signal results in scrambled display that eventually shuts off the tube. I tried two different good gaming consoles and no image would show up. After reviewing the video board options, I changed 0 to 1 for the only external sync option, and image would still not display but the tube wasn't forced off. I should probably stop input before damage occurs.

Anyway - are the 129x boards reliable or do they often have issues? It seems that I have a defective board, but maybe the monitor is to blame. Major sync problem I'm guessing. I don't have a duplicate card to test.


You made sure the cables and consoles work on another monitor?

The monitor and/or 129X card could very well be broke (or you could have a setting not right), these things are old, but the D9 and D14's are literally the worst most buggy BVM's I've owned yet. I've owned I want to say 3x or 4x D9's now, and at least 2x D14's. Every single one had issues with certain consoles (where the SAME exact console + cables would work on one BVM but not the other. I've also had scrambled pictures then overload/shutoff before as well...sometimes reseating the card fixed it. Other times I did absolutely nothing wrong but test it out the next night and it would work for months and months...

I literally brought RGB cables (and SCART to BNC breakouts) for 3x consoles to a guys house once, tried them on his consoles on a D14, and not a single one worked. Brought the D14 it home and the same exact cables worked on my same type of consoles....they're like beyond weird.

If it were me I would re-seat the card (you tried both slots? I forget if there's a certain one it's supposed to go in), then go into the service/maintenance menu and do a complete reset of each module. If you want to be paranoid you can go through and write down every single value beforehand but I never do (worst case you have to adjust the colors a bit to get them passable).

Make sure you have all your settings correct, including external sync (I assume you've tried every combo possible). Make sure none of the physical control buttons are messing up with your settings (including their shift settings).

After that you need to find a buddy you can try your card in his monitor, and try his card in yours (14/20L5 and 9L3's use these same 129x cards) and go from there.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:24 am 


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Yes, the two consoles work on a different CRT monitor using RGB. There weren't really any options given for RGB - only one slot, external sync, and no internal sync option seen. I can check the front panel buttons, but they should be in normal mode overall. I have not tried switching slots with the SDI card, which is in right slot, yet however. Degauss probably isn't working since it's very brief and weak sounding. As mentioned before, PS2 component video seems to work.

Now it seems that the front control unit could be the problem. It was damaged previously due to mishandling, so there could be electrical problems as well as wear and broken plastic mounting points. The sync button doesn't affect the display pattern at all, but I guess that the 129x could still be defective.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:56 am 



Joined: 12 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
(reposting since my now-approved post is buried)

Hi everyone

I'd like to connect my HD capable consoles to a CRT monitor. Currently I have two converters to achieve this, but they both have a defect: the HDFury Gamer that I was given stops working somewhere within the first hour of use, and the König HDMI to VGA Converter stops working for about five seconds every once in a while.

What are my options? I'm thinking either a HDFury Gamer 2, or a HDFury X3. The former seems to be cheaper, but less widely available, as it's discontinued, while the latter is more expensive, but its design is an improvement over the former. I've read that another option would be the (also discontinued) HDFury Nano, but I don't know how good the quality is. One product review said that the picture quality was merely okay.

It's important to mention that I'm located in Europe, so buying from a local retailer would be preferred. I've found that HDFury has .eu and .nl domains, but I doubt their legitimacy.

Thanks in advance for your advice!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:31 am 


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HDFury's EU outlet story is reliable. Bought quite some stuff from them.

But if you don't want to spend that kind of money though, get a Tendak HDMI to VGA converter. Available on ebay and Amazon (amazon.de for example) for under $15. Solid performance.

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B06WCZDDY1


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:03 pm 



Joined: 12 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
That converter is really cheap, which makes me doubt its quality. How does it compare to other offerings?

Is there a good reason to pick a HDFury X3 over a HDFury Gamer 2? From looking at the product page, the only noteworthy point is some kind of left shift issue.

I'm not against spending some money. Just want a converter of good quality that doesn't introduce lag.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:32 pm 


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You can find plenty of good feedback on the Tendak right here on the board.

Main feature of the HDF x3 is the integrated component output capability.


Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:49 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 985
The HDF3 also has a "color upscaling" dipswitch, to turn limited RGB to full RGB. I use that feature for the WiiU, though I honestly don't know if it makes a difference, especially on a CRT.

And it has two inputs with manual or auto switching, which I found pretty convenient at some point when I was feeding unscaled and scaled video to my monitor.

But for most people it's overkill and overpriced.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:00 pm 



Joined: 12 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
For the Wii U it's better to use a component to VGA converter, in my opinion, because that way you have full range RGB. I'll be using my VDigi cable that I use with my Wii for that purpose, as the Wii U uses the same video cables.

I'll be looking for other members's feedback on the Tendak and then decide if I'm going for that or the HDFury Gamer 2.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:46 pm 



Joined: 12 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Apologies for the double post, but I found something interesting.
fernan1234 wrote:
The HDF3 also has a "color upscaling" dipswitch, to turn limited RGB to full RGB. I use that feature for the WiiU, though I honestly don't know if it makes a difference, especially on a CRT.

Looks like colour upscaling only works on YUV:
peteyboy wrote:
Has anyone ever gotten color depth upscaling (16-235 -> 0-255) working with an HD Fury (X3)? It doesn't seem to do anything.

Edit: The device actually only expands YUV HDMI signals, not RGB Limited.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:56 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 985
BenoitRen wrote:
Looks like colour upscaling only works on YUV:


Interesting. Good to know this. Now I'm wondering if the WiiU is outputting HDMI YUV or RGB limited.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:53 am 


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RGB, otherwise the output wouldn't be DVI-compatible. Or the system allows you to choose (like 360, but I don't think the WiiU did offer that option).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:18 pm 



Joined: 12 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
I saw what I think is a HDFury Nano on eBay for a low price. Is there a catch?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:20 pm 


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Similar to this request by BenoitRen :

I'd like to hook up a PS3 to a SD crt. Am I better off sending that 480i signal through HDMI and using a Tendak? (though I'm wondering : is that converted signal be RGBHV, and not RGBS? which would mean I'd need to compbine sync with this method. Or get a HD Fury device, in which case I'll read this page in detail. very useful condensed info on the HDFury)

Or is there a way to fix the PS3's component output? suposedly it's terrible. Is there a mod by now to get clean component out?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:32 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Similar to this request by BenoitRen :

I'd like to hook up a PS3 to a SD crt. Am I better off sending that 480i signal through HDMI and using a Tendak? (though I'm wondering : is that converted signal be RGBHV, and not RGBS? which would mean I'd need to compbine sync with this method. Or get a HD Fury device, in which case I'll read this page in detail. very useful condensed info on the HDFury)

Or is there a way to fix the PS3's component output? suposedly it's terrible. Is there a mod by now to get clean component out?

I get top notch component output from my PS3 when using HDRV cables and a low pass filter in my OSSC (which you wouldn't need for a CRT)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:11 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I get top notch component output from my PS3 when using HDRV cables and a low pass filter in my OSSC (which you wouldn't need for a CRT)

ohhhh that's really interesting! thanks for chipping in. I might look into an HDRV cable, I only have a cheap chinese component cable for playstation2/3 at the moment
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:00 pm 



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FinalBaton wrote:
Or is there a way to fix the PS3's component output? suposedly it's terrible.

Try it and see how it looks to you?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:02 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Try it and see how it looks to you?

Unfortunately my PS3 is busted up at the moment so I have to get it repaired or buy a new one. I do remember trying it on a flat panel and it looked kinda muddy but that could have been the upscaling. I haven't tried it cleanly scaled or on a crt yet.

The HD Retrovision cables are not expensive and honestly that's a great suggestion, I'll try that for sure.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:41 pm 


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my understanding was/is that the PS3's analogue component output has bandwith issues with HD signals, so you get a blurrier picture than you would with a DIY-HDMI to YUV solution, but if you're aiming at 15khz (or even 31khz) then I would consider the PS3's component output to be absolutely OK on its own.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:19 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Nogame wrote:
Sony BVM 129x problem. BVM-D9H5U monitor with BKM-129x card - only a component signal is accepted, although 480p hasn't been tried yet. RGBs signal results in scrambled display that eventually shuts off the tube. I tried two different good gaming consoles and no image would show up. After reviewing the video board options, I changed 0 to 1 for the only external sync option, and image would still not display but the tube wasn't forced off. I should probably stop input before damage occurs.

Anyway - are the 129x boards reliable or do they often have issues? It seems that I have a defective board, but maybe the monitor is to blame. Major sync problem I'm guessing. I don't have a duplicate card to test.


You made sure the cables and consoles work on another monitor?

The monitor and/or 129X card could very well be broke (or you could have a setting not right), these things are old, but the D9 and D14's are literally the worst most buggy BVM's I've owned yet. I've owned I want to say 3x or 4x D9's now, and at least 2x D14's. Every single one had issues with certain consoles (where the SAME exact console + cables would work on one BVM but not the other. I've also had scrambled pictures then overload/shutoff before as well...sometimes reseating the card fixed it. Other times I did absolutely nothing wrong but test it out the next night and it would work for months and months...

I literally brought RGB cables (and SCART to BNC breakouts) for 3x consoles to a guys house once, tried them on his consoles on a D14, and not a single one worked. Brought the D14 it home and the same exact cables worked on my same type of consoles....they're like beyond weird.

If it were me I would re-seat the card (you tried both slots? I forget if there's a certain one it's supposed to go in), then go into the service/maintenance menu and do a complete reset of each module. If you want to be paranoid you can go through and write down every single value beforehand but I never do (worst case you have to adjust the colors a bit to get them passable).

Make sure you have all your settings correct, including external sync (I assume you've tried every combo possible). Make sure none of the physical control buttons are messing up with your settings (including their shift settings).

After that you need to find a buddy you can try your card in his monitor, and try his card in yours (14/20L5 and 9L3's use these same 129x cards) and go from there.


The monitor looks like it cannot be fixed. Someone briefly tested on a D14 monitor for me with that BKM-129x module and it seemed to work with 240p at least. Only component video will display on my monitor though, and 240p will no longer show up at all. However, with PS2 progressive mode the monitor had difficulty switching between 480i and 480p, making loud noise and flashing each time.

The chassis of the monitor is a little rough-looking, but operation time is shown as only 2000 hours I think. With flat field/white display the monitor shows some yellowing and streaking of text though - suggesting that it's worn down I guess. What usually causes horizontal streaking on CRT displays?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:15 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
my understanding was/is that the PS3's analogue component output has bandwith issues with HD signals, so you get a blurrier picture than you would with a DIY-HDMI to YUV solution, but if you're aiming at 15khz (or even 31khz) then I would consider the PS3's component output to be absolutely OK on its own.

Awesome, thanks for the input Fudoh. I didn't know this particularity. It is exclusively for 15kHz indeed, so I'll go with component out.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:15 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
my understanding was/is that the PS3's analogue component output has bandwith issues with HD signals, so you get a blurrier picture than you would with a DIY-HDMI to YUV solution, but if you're aiming at 15khz (or even 31khz) then I would consider the PS3's component output to be absolutely OK on its own.

I've seen no evidence of it being bandwidth limited, 1080p is crisp


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:39 pm 


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not up to searching for that particular thread here on the board, but we had plenty of screenshots that show a pretty big difference in sharpness when comparing native 720p component output to native 720p HDMI output (which is what you get when you using that plus a DAC).

I wouldn't call the analogue HD output bad by any means, it's just very clear that the HDMI output is considerably clearer.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:56 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
not up to searching for that particular thread here on the board, but we had plenty of screenshots that show a pretty big difference in sharpness when comparing native 720p component output to native 720p HDMI output (which is what you get when you using that plus a DAC).

I wouldn't call the analogue HD output bad by any means, it's just very clear that the HDMI output is considerably clearer.

I can believe all of that with the OEM or other 3rd party cables. Pretty sure the consoles DAC is not the issue, just sub par cables


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:12 am 


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On the Xbox 360, what influence does the video output method (analog vs. HDMI) have on input lag, excluding any lag added by the monitor?
Specifically, assuming both are generated in parallel (not firm with the 360's hardware internals), which path takes longer?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:21 am 



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6t8k wrote:
On the Xbox 360, what influence does the video output method (analog vs. HDMI) have on input lag, excluding any lag added by the monitor?
Specifically, assuming both are generated in parallel (not firm with the 360's hardware internals), which path takes longer?

I am not an expert, but I don't think there'd be any tangible difference in input lag. If the difference is measurable at all, it's going to be too small to matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 am 



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Would I be right to think that the cheapest and best way to convert 480p to 480i is to get an Extron VSC?

I’m trying to figure out the best way to connect my ultrahdmi to a non 480p compatible CRT with component inputs.

Ideally it’d be a 480p to 240p downscale but there aren’t many affordable options to do that.

Will the Analogue DAC downconvert 480p to 240p? Edit: no.

Why can’t the ultrahdmi output 240p over hdmi anyway for digital to analogue conversion?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:45 pm 



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strayan wrote:
Why can’t the ultrahdmi output 240p over hdmi anyway for digital to analogue conversion?

It can't? The UltraHDMI should be outputting native resolution (and optionally non-normalized sync) when you turn on Direct Mode. I imagine it's not on by default because a lot of devices and displays aren't compatible with 240p, 288p, 480i, and/or 576i over HDMI.


Edit: Nevermind; it can't. Direct Mode turns off everything except the scaler--so native refresh rate, no filtering, no deblur. Sadly, it doesn't look like there's any way to get it to output at native resolutions.

I have no idea if it'll have the same lack of support for native resolutions, but HW2 should at least let you eliminate the HDMI->YPbPr converter from your chain.


Last edited by nmalinoski on Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:36 pm 



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Does the 8bitdo m30 Genesis/Mega Drive controller work with the Genesis/MD mini over a wired (USB) connection?


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