Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

Found an obscure glitch in VS. Castlevania, straight outta NES CV1:

Spoiler

No not that one! (・｀W´・) I already knew about that! （＾ω´ ）Happens in NES PRG1 and the game's final cartridge revision for Famicom, too. Appropriately spooky for Boney-kun's debut stage. He can't escape the whip though! No, this was something else!

An Enthralling Story: With VS.C's meaner damage scale, Super Fresh Mummy Bros can't be battled so blithely. I usually fight from the center until one whacks me clear of the pincer, which puts me in position to exploit their sprite overlap = XTREEM DAMAGE glitch for the instakill! "BWAA" says SFMB#1, "HE DEAD NOW" "WAIT NO" says SFMB#2 "OH FUUUCK" say both as BERUMONDO unleashes per-frame annihilation!

Actual Footage:

Spoiler

But in VS.C, if you've taken so much as a single bump en-route, this strategy is gonna get dangerous!

So I was battling a bit more fiercely in the first phase, and getting PWNED while trying to snap-turn and whip incoming bandages. Turns out the backwards jump I've long been unhealthily obsessed with (check it boyeee ) has a button counterpart! Just like the BJ you need to hit [turn] and the button almost but not quite simultaneously.

Spoiler

As shown it's not easy to trigger, calm down this isn't Holy Diver FFS. But as always on The Hellish Battlefield™, you must verify your shit!

[Sumez]

Mummies were definitely one of the major obstacles for my Vs. CV 1CC.
Actually the latter half of the game was probably the easier part for me, due to it being less extremely different from the NES version. Even the time limit feels more relaxed on those last few stages.

[BIL]

AFAIK, the time limit actually isn't changed *at all* for the last few stages. So the stage 5 Red Skelten Extend-O-Matic is open for breakfast as usual! LOL SUCK IT ARCADE OPS

Also, on the home carts, I'm pretty sure stages 2-5 and 2-6 are identical to their first loop versions. I've a suspicion Death may summon an extra sickle per wave, but it's hazy.

So the second loop's first four stages are actually the game's hardest, with 2-4 its climax and 2-5+6 a relative victory lap. (ho ho hoooly fuck, it's a good thing they don't confiscate your subweapons for Creature, he'd be a truly menacing TLB!) The first three's hyped-up pests make the Stopwatch tempting, while the fourth's rafting is an absolute memoriser cockslap thanks to killer fishmans. Was just talking with Austin about that in the linked vid. I'm gonna try engineering a less rickety 2-4 plan than my current one.

EDIT: Hey, that's pretty good! Perhaps my afternoon of hell in the Ninja Pit has made my cookie-dough ass hard like wood.

I've never 2-ALLed VS (think I may make that my current project game). So I don't know if it differs there - or indeed if there's anything beyond the second loop, rather than it repeating infinitely ala NES/FC. Seemed to be the tradition for FDS games, that, along with the three save slots + Whats Ur Name setup.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm eagerly awaiting BIL's writeup on the MS-DOS version of Castlevania.

[Sumez]

(honestly though, the Midi version is kinda cool)

[Austin]

Mummies should be one of the easier parts of any CV 1CC. I mean, that is of course assuming you're not BIL and trying to take them head on in Loop 2 just for style points. In Vs. CV you can still ignore the meat and smack them in the head from that platform, or go up higher and drop holy water from there. On that note, lots of other exploits still work here, like the stopwatch on the first two bosses, or pinning Death with the holy water right as the fight starts.

The second part of the Stage 4 water area on Loop 2 is not treating me well at all. I am going to take a stab at it again tomorrow morning on stream so hopefully I can figure something out.

Re: Loop 2 arcade differences versus Loop 2 NES differences. I believe there are bats featured at more locations than even the NES second loop. For instance, the moment your game restarts in the courtyard, bats are flying at you in the arcade one. I'm pretty sure they don't start appearing in the NES Loop 2 until you actually walk into the castle. Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly?

I'm eagerly awaiting BIL's writeup on the MS-DOS version of Castlevania.

Funny timing on that one. I practiced it last week and recorded a playthrough, haha.

It's janky as all hell but also manages to be pretty faithful at the same time. I really, really don't recommend anyone play it, but it is interesting seeing the similarities and differences.

[Marc]

Oh you're playing the MegaDrive Mini? I guess that explains the comment on the first boss's projectile hitbox.

And honestly, I've also found the rock turtles to be more randomly punishing in the MegaDrive port. It's an amazingly spot on port, but it's not flawless.
First stage feels easier on MegaDrive too, at least when taking the left route on the second half, which I never do on arcade.

Ah, I thought I hadn't found to arcade version quite so annoying.
I've no way of playing it at the moment that doesn't involve CRT shopping, which I suppose I need to do really.
Capcom are so hit and miss with their re-releases. The Arcade Cabinet for the 360/PS3 was a missed opportunity - what WAS there was brilliant, but I was hugely disappointed that there were no additional DLC packs. Seems odd to leave off the stuff that they've ported numerous times previously. Then there's this arcade stick - surely they'd generate a hell of a lot more cash with a console compilation?

[kitten]

i'm playing hollow knight for the first time - not even five minutes in - and i am fucking astonished i have never heard anyone talk about how the jump in this has tremendous input delay. it is immediately and jarringly offensive.

[Sumez]

The input delay definitely hurt me a lot in Hollow Knight. Enough that the added delay from my TV rendered some bosses much harder than they should be. The final boss has one of those classic telegraphed attacks where a bunch of thin lines will warn you where it's about to fire a bunch of lasers. That was completely impossible for me to consistently dodge, but playing in the Switch's handheld mode it was absolutely no issue.

That said, the game isn't really much about the combat gameplay. It's fun, but it's nothing out of the ordinary. The real quality comes from the cute and incredibly charming worldbuilding.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

(honestly though, the Midi version is kinda cool)

It's actually PC Speaker, which is why it can only play one note at a time and music abruptly cuts out whenever it plays the sound effect for destroying something. The same group also made a port of Outrun for MS-DOS and it's... graphically it looks actually gorgeous rendered in EGA, but the steering feels really stiff and unresponsive compared to other ports like the Genesis and GBA port. It didn't have an option for Midi or Soundblaster music either from what I recall.

It's janky as all hell but also manages to be pretty faithful at the same time. I really, really don't recommend anyone play it, but it is interesting seeing the similarities and differences.

That was pretty much my thought about it when I'd played it. You could tell they knew they wanted it to try and be faithful in terms of stage layout but it feels so stiff and cumbersome to play. It's very interesting, but not what you'd call good.

[Austin]

(honestly though, the Midi version is kinda cool)

It's actually PC Speaker, which is why it can only play one note at a time and music abruptly cuts out whenever it plays the sound effect for destroying something. The same group also made a port of Outrun for MS-DOS and it's... graphically it looks actually gorgeous rendered in EGA, but the steering feels really stiff and unresponsive compared to other ports like the Genesis and GBA port. It didn't have an option for Midi or Soundblaster music either from what I recall.

Castlevania MS-DOS can actually use the Adlib too. Some of the tunes are extra-catchy with their bright tones (like the version of Vampire Killer), though some tracks definitely fared much better than others. Found an example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x5aPLl3cJA

That was pretty much my thought about it when I'd played it. You could tell they knew they wanted it to try and be faithful in terms of stage layout but it feels so stiff and cumbersome to play. It's very interesting, but not what you'd call good.

Honestly, the game might have fared much better if it was released a year or two later (and assuming the developers wanted to put the leg work in). PC compatibles back then struggled with smooth scrolling and it wasn't a year or two after the Castlevania port released that it became more common place. But yeah.. it's still a poor experience even with that in mind.

[Sumez]

(honestly though, the Midi version is kinda cool)

It's actually PC Speaker

Well, the Midi version isn't XD

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, it seems like there was a gradual buildup to the point where platforming and action games lost their slower scrolling speeds and eventually we got stuff like Bio-Menace and Halloween Harry with absolutely silky-smooth scrolling movement. The PC was definitely capable of a proper port, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

Well, the Midi version isn't XD

Oh, I misunderstood, I thought you were watching that video and commenting that the "midi version" of the music in the video was cool. I wasn't aware Castlevania (and possibly Outrun?) for MS-DOS actually supported Adlib/Soundblaster music, I must've missed that option.

Actually, anyone remember that there was an MS-DOS port of Mega Man X? It wasn't an emulator either, used its own soundtrack which I actually preferred over the SNES instrumentation. That was a great example of porting to PC done right (it completely cut out the ride armor in Chill Penguin's stage for some reason though).

[HELLEPHANT]

i'm playing hollow knight for the first time - not even five minutes in - and i am fucking astonished i have never heard anyone talk about how the jump in this has tremendous input delay. it is immediately and jarringly offensive.

Turn off Vsync if it's on, I had absolutely insane delay until I did so.

[BIL]

I'm eagerly awaiting BIL's writeup on the MS-DOS version of Castlevania.

Sadly I'm at work and aggressively net-nannied, so I can't provide the Castlevania/Ninja Gaiden II/Super Contra triple feature of nauseatingly choppy Western personal computer conversions I'd like to.

Austin you're right, I just checked my old FC Dracula 2-ALL and the courtyard is bat-free. A promising start, now I'm fired up! I made it to 2-4 pretty handily the other night and died as expected at the raft... but after a little credit-feeding I pretty rapidly made it to the garden, this without remembering my old method (linked above). I left it there and wasn't feeling too motivated but now I'm really curious, will jump on it this evening.

RE Mummies >:3 no lie, I completely forgot you could whip them from the Wallmeat block. TBH it may be good to know that, with how brutally unforgiving the loop's damage scale gets. As I outlined a page back, I don't think it's the game's optimal format - more pests, great, less flexibility, not so much - but it's an excellent test of focus.

[Sumez]

Yeah, it seems like there was a gradual buildup to the point where platforming and action games lost their slower scrolling speeds and eventually we got stuff like Bio-Menace and Halloween Harry with absolutely silky-smooth scrolling movement. The PC was definitely capable of a proper port, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

A DOS PC from that time wasn't really built to do smooth full-screen scrolling at all, because you'd need to update the entire screen every single frame (as opposed to eg. consoles which would apply a pixel offset during rendering, defined in an internal register of the video chip). The Commander Keen series is pretty much famous for being the first DOS game to pull it off, so it's no surprise that it was this vein of Apogee releases that'd continue the trend.
The exact type of trickery needed to get smooth scrolling on that era of PCs is unknown to me, but I'm guessing it wasn't easy, and probably comes with its own set of abstract limitations.

[BIL]

Following on! I was all fired up to PWN MS-DOS Super Contra with much disdain, but tbh it looks passable for its time. Have to respect them taking on the JAMMA game as opposed to its NES interpretation. The Amiga one OTOH looks as crummy as ever, but with the AC game itself handling quite... idiosyncratically, I still don't feel the full force meh.

Not so with DOS Ninja Gaiden II. I regret to inform prospective players that the already pesky bats, which were always Medusa Heads, have learned Epileptic Seizure no Jutsu, and it seems they shared the technique amongst several allies, including whoever handled the scrolling.

It is hard to get too worked up tbh but this conversion showcases a couple favourite oddities of mine: seemingly-arbitrary colour changes...



...and similarly perplexing BGM changes. Yes, the anemic rendition of the NES trilogy's boss BGM, which was a bit meat-headed to start with, is now accompanying stage 2's breezy train carriage hop. Random pick, or cruel compromise, or conscious choice? Mystery abounds in the PC conversion autopsy game!

Amiga Ninja Spirit, which I'm not going to bother linking because the PCB is state of the art ninja sidescrolling technology and I'd sooner bite my own dick off than watch that longplay ever again, does this too. Arcade OST gets scattered all over the damn place. As with NGII - was there some technical reason? Or did the conversion staff find Masahiko Ishida's filmic sense lacking? I guess it's possible they just got hold of the arcade BGM without knowing the sequencing... hmm.

To keep this post from getting too depressing I'll say C64 Ninja Spirit's distinctive take on final stage BGM "KIZAISHI" is pretty satisfying. Not a fan of that distinctive telephone warbling sound, especially when it found its way into stuff like Codemasters' Ultimate Stuntman (NES), but it just about works here and the lower registers are considerably menacing. Boss BGM "KESSEN" is excellent too, love that fat scratchy tone.

Although as a conversion it appears wildly inaccurate (RIP Kusarigama), it nevertheless looks like really good fun in its own right, outdoing many contemporary efforts by at least being pleasing to watch. Has a gloom all its own opposite the PCB, its "armed Lemming" player character aside. That schnozz is a bit goofy - OTOH, most of the other smaller sprites look great, especially the Samurai and Monks! Now that's a longplay I'll happily rewatch without straining my neck!

[BrianC]

The Amiga sprite for Bill Rizer in Super Contra is hilariously cartoony. He bears a slight resemblance to Homer Simpson with his beer belly and 5 o'clock shadow.

[BIL]

I totally forgot another luminary of the time - Amiga Jashin!

TRAPPED IN PURGATORY / A LIFELESS OBJECT, ALIVE



No not you! Piss off, you jumbo shrimp hewn of viscera and despair, doubled over in divine agony and/or ecstasy and discharging your Dangerous Seed™! I'm talking...

KNEEL BEFORE THE HORROR



That's more like it! He looks like a sock puppet (I like that they got "NINJA/ENEMY" right! "PLAYER/ENEMY" would've been a cheeky razz @ Tecmo and/or Konami though! )

You know what, re: C64 Ninja Spirit - I shouldn't even say "wildly" inaccurate. It's not the near-perfection of IREM's own PCE conversion, but all things considered it gets the broad strokes right, at least observed from a distance. And that BGM is sizzling. Respects the OSV's dynamics while adding its own spin. Primal death pulse st3/"MOON" builds to a seizure pitch as unceremoniously snuffed out as that of Ishida's glowering original. Morbid toe-tapping catchiness reminds me of Killing Joke's The Death And Resurrection Show.

The way the aforementioned "KIZAISHI" works in KESSEN and the latter part of st4's KARAKURI, typically not heard in arcade play with the BGM resetting between floors, is my frickin' jam. I am a game music fiend who pardons even the most blasphemous conversions in the name of good tunes, so finding jams in an (at least superficially) decent work is always good! Even manages some punchy explosion SFX on top. EDIT: oh nice, just converted the whole thing from .vgm to MP3 with foobar.

Speaking of fiendery! My little tribute to Karakuri. The inter-floor reset does give a certain zen, particularly with the danger reaching an evil climax as you near the trapdoors, nightmare Samurai spawns ever-lurking to lop your goddamn head off. But it's clear the song's peak was meant to arrive around the time you face the crushing ceiling and the Red Ninja Grenadier Corps, 69th Regiment (so named for the autofellating positions their remains will be discovered in many centuries later, doggedly manning their posts until the ceiling-smooshed end! Know that the way of the shinobi is terribly harsh!).

I wonder if it was a technical snafu or just harried scheduling - much the same goes for KIZAISHI ptII going unheard, something else I toyed with fixing. SAIGONONINDOU's PCB capture displays its full pummelling fury, wish I'd had the balls to wait around like he does. Didn't want to get owned by the last boss. Ishida talks about there being an entire second half of R-Type II's fourth stage BGM he just forgot to include, haha. He also mentions duelling an Image Fight designer for the fate of another BGM, matching the fiendish torturer at his own game on distance but losing on points. Great interview!

[it290]

Taito games seemed to be the only ones to get decent Amiga ports for whatever reason. Rainbow Islands and Liquid Kids are the ones people talk about, but personally I like the port of Operation Wolf quite a bit, fun to play with a mouse and keeps all the goofy voice samples intact.

[Marc]

C64 Ninja Spirit was rather excellent for its time, one where I felt I'd gotten a decent approximation of the coin-op for once, and the BGM is brilliant.

We really should have a thread for the best/worst home computer ports.

[Sumez]

Taito games seemed to be the only ones to get decent Amiga ports for whatever reason. Rainbow Islands and Liquid Kids are the ones people talk about, but personally I like the port of Operation Wolf quite a bit, fun to play with a mouse and keeps all the goofy voice samples intact.

Liquid Kids, coincidentally, was never released.

Rainbow Islands is interesting. I hear it's based entirely on playing the arcade game and trying to replicate it, rather than porting the code directly, but I had the chance to play it again a couple of months ago (the first time I've actually tried the Amiga version in nearly 30 years!), and from what I could tell it really felt exactly like the arcade version, which is incredibly impressive. I know people usually say it's good, but I always take claims like that with a grain of salt, especially considering 30% of the game is completely missing, which should be enough to invalidate it no matter how good the controls are.
That said, I was only able to play it with the default Amiga controls of a shitty, mushy joystick, and holding it "up" to jump, which combined with the intricate control scheme made it completely impossible to play the game well by any stretch. So I still have a few reservations, as it would be hard to tell if there are any important mistakes and glaring inaccuracies hidden behind the awful control scheme, but from what I've seen it's hard to believe that the game is only a "sight-read" recreation similar to Parasol Stars.

I did run straight out and bought Ocean's NES port, however, and ended up really disappointed that it felt in no way as nice as the Amiga-version. They must have been created by completely different teams.

[Austin]

@BIL - Finished the second loop of Vs. Castlevania. Stage 4 was not nearly as troublesome when I got a good stopwatch strategy down. I simply go at it whip only until the last two moving platforms, then I spam the stopwatch. The only issue with this strategy is I am forced to deal with Frank without the holy water. That's not necessarily a problem so much as it's just risky, as by this point in the game it's two-hit kills when at a full health bar. I'd like to figure out a strategy to get through it with the holy water, but that second to last merman still gets me every time.

It's been a while since I've done the NES Loop 2 so I'm not completely sure how the arcade version compares. What I did see on the default "Easy" is that enemies will do more than half of your health bar by the end of Loop 2. Not that it really matters since you can still only absorb one hit.

Interestingly, Hard mode isn't simply Loop 2 in disguise. It seems like it's Loop 1 but with greater damage output. Enemies will do half a health bar's worth of damage right from the start, but it increases as the game moves on. Getting to Loop 2 on this is fun because it has all the same shenanigans as Easy mode Loop 2, but enemies now do three-quarters of your health bar. Wall meat also gives back less health now, so it's actually possible for them to be completely useless depending on the level and situation.

[BIL]

^ Congrats on seeing the loop through! I got held up, but will give it a shot before the week's out for sure.

@BIL - Finished the second loop of Vs. Castlevania. Stage 4 was not nearly as troublesome when I got a good stopwatch strategy down. I simply go at it whip only until the last two moving platforms, then I spam the stopwatch. The only issue with this strategy is I am forced to deal with Frank without the holy water. That's not necessarily a problem so much as it's just risky, as by this point in the game it's two-hit kills when at a full health bar. I'd like to figure out a strategy to get through it with the holy water, but that second to last merman still gets me every time.

Aye, it's reaching Frankie without spam that bothers me. I'd be up for it with NES damage scale (I'd like to bring ol' Cedric Berumondo out of retirement for a 2-ALL Master of the Knifing no-miss at some point) - but with VSC's ruthlessness, I'm way less inclined. They come at me, imma come all over 'em. I mean imma come back hard. Something something x3 holywater/cross.

I have a pretty nice x3 Axe cheese strategy for Franky too, which could make a decent failsafe (with the garden fleamen dropping Axes, ordinarily a deadly hazard if you're packing HW/C). Discovered it accidentally here. Went to all that trouble getting x3 Axe for a "fair fight" and squashed him like an 8ft 400lb bug. Whoops! TBH, even on NES I emerge from the loop catacombs possessed with the urge to burn a certain undead pastiche and his apeman sidekick alive... sorry fellas, wasn't your fault but you're in my way and someone is going to die violently.

Assuming the loop catacomb behaviour wasn't messed with (would not surprise me given how sadistic this revision can get), it should be possible to deal with the last fishmen as shown here. Critical things in my route are 1) the deliberately missed platform cycle, and 2) Simon's position - either fore or aft as shown. It seems to jam 'em up reliably, I actually had to do it three times after suffering mortifying pratfalls in 2-6. One of 'em was falling down the stairs at the game's final Boney-kun tag team. I just kinda stared at the screen for a bit.

Interestingly, Hard mode isn't simply Loop 2 in disguise. It seems like it's Loop 1 but with greater damage output. Enemies will do half a health bar's worth of damage right from the start, but it increases as the game moves on. Getting to Loop 2 on this is fun because it has all the same shenanigans as Easy mode Loop 2, but enemies now do three-quarters of your health bar. Wall meat also gives back less health now, so it's actually possible for them to be completely useless depending on the level and situation.

Definitely had that impression on Hard's first loop, was wondering just how sadistic its second got. It's kinda funny how amidst all this suffering they didn't bother to clamp down on the st5 red skelten Extend-O-Matic, so in theory you could still stockpile an obscene amount of lives across both loops. Not much help in a no-miss obviously, but it'd certainly up your practice hours per credit.

[WelshMegalodon]

C64 Ninja Spirit was rather excellent for its time, one where I felt I'd gotten a decent approximation of the coin-op for once, and the BGM is brilliant.

We really should have a thread for the best/worst home computer ports.

All the top picks are going to be X68000 ports, though, aren't they?

Once you look past that and the Towns you start getting into "best of the worst" category.

[Vanguard]

It's been some time since I've played on one, but didn't the PlayChoice 10 limit you to a certain amount of time per credit rather than giving you a single attempt at clearing the game? Farming skeletons might make for easy 1CCs but it wouldn't reduce how much you spend.

[BIL]

That does sound familiar! Lousy pricks! (I do think it's a shame the time limit wasn't carried over to the last couple stages, would add some nice survival pressure to booking down Death's hallway and aggressively attacking the innately elusive DORAKYURA-SAMA; also, would invite mad VGM trivia flexing with st6 BGM Out Of Time!)

Can confirm my PRG1/FC loop 2 catacomb raft strat works just fine in VSC. It's a snap! I was half-joking about the Ninja Pit earlier but it really does tend to trivialise previously onerous memo. Stockholm syndrome, it's amazing! Thanks IREM!

Video clip

Loop 2's fifth and sixth stages seem identical to the NES/FC carts'. This didn't surprise too much, tbh. You might think Castlevania: Bloodlines' first stage being far battier than Vampire Killer's on their respective Expert modes presages big changes further in, but it's actually the first and last change of its sort.

Now to see if I can hold it together.

[Austin]

It would depend since the timer was an operator setting that could be disabled. Growing up though I only ever saw Playchoice units with the timer enabled. Always killed the appeal of those things.

[BrianC]

It's been some time since I've played on one, but didn't the PlayChoice 10 limit you to a certain amount of time per credit rather than giving you a single attempt at clearing the game? Farming skeletons might make for easy 1CCs but it wouldn't reduce how much you spend.

Yes, but the Vs. System, including Vs. Castlevania, was separate from Playchoice-10 and used standard credits. Playchoice-10 games were mostly the same as the NES versions and the Vs. System games usually had differences (with a few exceptions). Vs. Castlevania is not a PC10 game. The CV on PC-10 is very similar to the NES version and, AFAIK, lacks the time and damage changes of the Vs. version.

I think the PC-10 at Too Many Games one year had the timer disabled, but the smaller one had this horrible joystick (emphasis on stick).

[Vanguard]

Edit: Review moved to the next page. Thanks BIL!